Canned tune vs. Custom dyno tune

[Super Sic]

Why is it that canned tunes seem more popular for the S65 compared to Custom dyno tunes? One would think that a custom tune, based on your specific car, mods, gas, AFR, etc would yield better/safer results. This is how its been for all the cars I've had prior to my M3. Is it because the S65 ECU is hard to program?

[stefan]

Canned tunes are popular only because they are cheaper OR they are a decent baseline for a tuning shop to start from.

IMO canned tunes are reckless and should never be an "alternative" to a good protune. There are many environmental factors as well as subtle differences in the cars themselves that could flesh themselves out in a OTS tune. You could be introducing engine knock, for example.

In any case, getting a tuning shop to take a look at the results of an OTS tune is never a bad idea and they usually don't charge much to do this. Still, I'd do the right thing and get a custom tune.

[THE TECH]

Time is money.

[Super Sic]

Originally Posted by stefan

Canned tunes are popular only because they are cheaper OR they are a decent baseline for a tuning shop to start from.

IMO canned tunes are reckless and should never be an "alternative" to a good protune. There are many environmental factors as well as subtle differences in the cars themselves that could flesh themselves out in a OTS tune. You could be introducing engine knock, for example.

In any case, getting a tuning shop to take a look at the results of an OTS tune is never a bad idea and they usually don't charge much to do this. Still, I'd do the right thing and get a custom tune.

That pretty well sums up how I feel too, which brought me to post my question in the first place as this doesn't necesarily seem like the popular position on the forum. Most tuning posts I see have people recommending getting this tune or that tune, with few if any posts talking about custom dyno tuning or follow up time on a dyno to check out how the mail order tune is running.

[Super Sic]

Originally Posted by THE TECH

Time is money.

True, but a bad tune will kill your engine. An inefficient x-pipe or exhaust won't cause that kind of harm and people spend big $$ on those items.

[THE TECH]

Honestly, with the reputation of the available canned tunes, you really can't go wrong. They are not tuning on the ragged edge by any means and the computer still has all the fail safes. Yes, a dyno tune would always be better but for the end results and money spent, you will likely not be further ahead.

[Singletrack]

Originally Posted by stefan

Canned tunes are popular only because they are cheaper OR they are a decent baseline for a tuning shop to start from.

IMO canned tunes are reckless and should never be an "alternative" to a good protune. There are many environmental factors as well as subtle differences in the cars themselves that could flesh themselves out in a OTS tune. You could be introducing engine knock, for example.

In any case, getting a tuning shop to take a look at the results of an OTS tune is never a bad idea and they usually don't charge much to do this. Still, I'd do the right thing and get a custom tune.

The stock programing knocks and corrects to adjust the timing target. Fuel is always adjusted to the desired target...

Agreed that having it tuned on the dyno is always ideal.

Saying canned tunes, on this ecu, are reckless is a bit silly.

[IMG]

Originally Posted by X_fuera

Why is it that canned tunes seem more popular for the S65 compared to Custom dyno tunes? One would think that a custom tune, based on your specific car, mods, gas, AFR, etc would yield better/safer results. This is how its been for all the cars I've had prior to my M3. Is it because the S65 ECU is hard to program?

For the most part, custom tuning on the S65 ECU (MSS60) is a myth and guys selling it are scam artists. The ECU is a closed-loop, target based ECU. That means that you set timing and AFR targets, and the ECU calculates whatever it needs to hit that target. When add an exhaust (for example), it might change the AFR's. But the ECU is target based and automatically adjusts the AFR calculations because it will still try to hit the same AFR target. Some might argue that VANOS tuning is how you compensate for changes in back pressure caused by exhaust changes. That may be true. But I have yet to see any examples to prove it's been done successfully.

If you've been around here long enough you will see this same trend with the guys pushing custom tunes. They claim huge gains and show a bunch of fancy dynos. Then they tell the customer a bunch of BS that the ECU continues to adapt over time and they will get even MORE horsepower in a week or two later. When they go to the dyno, they clear the ECU adaptations before the runs -- which in turn makes the dyno spike 10-15whp higher numbers. The customer is left with this great belief that he's got this great custom tune and he vows to prove the naysayer's wrong by going back to the dyno a week or two later and get his own independent results. Believe me, this same exact scenario has played out many times on this forum. Then one or two weeks later, the customers are gone and never post another dyno result. I've even seen two guys announce they have a date with the dyno -- "tomorrow" and they will post the results when they are done. Then they disappear. No follow up results are ever posted, and the guys never respond to the thread ever again. Why? Because they got scammed by a tuner who gave them promises of a custom tune and told them the ECU will continue to increase power as it continues to adapt. But when they went back to the dyno, they got the lower results they were warned about and so they abandon the thread instead of exposing the scam artist tuner.

We should all know by now that the tuner's claims are a scam. It's impossible to gain power through adaptations (entropy) because the ECU adapts DOWN, not UP. The ECU is programmed with optimal timing and AFR targets. But the crappy gas we get won't let the ECU hit those targets, so it has to adapt -- and when it adapts, it adapts to lower numbers.

Sorry to burst the bubble of these guys who want a custom tune, but that's just how it work. You'll notice the guys who sold these custom tunes a year ago, aren't even
around any longer on the boards to defend them...and their once-faithful customers no longer defend them either. Buyer beware; custom tunes on the MSS60 are mostly a scam.

[stefan]

Originally Posted by Singletrack

The stock programing knocks and corrects to adjust the timing target. Fuel is always adjusted to the desired target...

Agreed that having it tuned on the dyno is always ideal.

Saying canned tunes, on this ecu, are reckless is a bit silly.

I should rephrase by stating I think it's reckless to sell them as a one-step power modification. Yeah, it's my opinion, but I really think everyone who gets OTS tunes should have their logs checked over after a few hundred km's and, if necessary, have their tunes tweaked by a reputable shop. Granted the S65's ECU is probably the most sophisticated one I've ever owned. But with previous vehicles that I have had experience tuning, there were always subtle improvements to be made to OTS tunes, much of it being addressing knock risks.

Keep in mind, too, that I'm speaking generally and perhaps it means it's less applicable to the S65. Full disclosure; I have no plans to tune the S65. Don't see the point.

[sales@ESSTuning]

The MSS60 is a fully adaptive target based system and does not need to be custom tuned unless you have done something extreme to the motor like cams, stroker etc... If the car is stock or has simple mods like a drop in filter, pulley or axle back exhaust there is nothing a custom tune will do for you. You would be surprised at how much this system will attempt to correct itself when it is put into a situation that is not ideal. Custom tuning is very popular on older control systems. These older control systems can be fine tuned to very specific details and are a set group of values that do not change but on fully adaptive target based systems this is simply not how it works. In some cases exhaust systems that modify or remove the cats sometimes need changes outside of our standard software to run ideal at all RPM's but once the tuner has developed a file for it the tune can be replicated when needed for these systems.

If your E9X M3 is stock or has simple bolt on mods and someone is trying to charge you extra for a custom tune or is telling you need a custom tune without knowing what mods are on the car you should find a new tuner. I would be more concerned at the knowledge and reputation of the tuner tuning your car and not so much if it's custom or not.

[IMG]

Originally Posted by Roman@ESS

The MSS60 is a fully adaptive target based system and does not need to be custom tuned unless you have done something extreme to the motor like cams, stroker etc... If the car is stock or has simple mods like a drop in filter, pulley or axle back exhaust there is nothing a custom tune will do for you. You would be surprised at how much this system will attempt to correct itself when it is put into a situation that is not ideal. Custom tuning is very popular on older control systems. These older control systems can be fine tuned to very specific details and are a set group of values that do not change but on fully adaptive target based systems this is simply not how it works. In some cases exhaust systems that modify or remove the cats sometimes need changes outside of our standard software to run ideal at all RPM's but once the tuner has developed a file for it the tune can be replicated when needed for these systems.

If your E9X M3 is stock or has simple bolt on mods and someone is trying to charge you extra for a custom tune or is telling you need a custom tune without knowing what mods are on the car you should find a new tuner. I would be more concerned at the knowledge and reputation of the tuner tuning your car and not if it's custom or not.

^+1

[Super Sic]

Interesting. So is it accurate to say that the safety/performance of aftermarket tunes is driven by the target variables chosen by the tuner? Is there a general sense of how conservative the engineers at M division were when programming these targets into ECU? Another question - do the "best" target variables differ if you have more or less mods? For example, are the "best" AFR and timing numbers different between a catless xpipe setup vs a catted xpipe setup? If so, why? If not, once you have the "best" numbers, why would you ever need an updated tune when you add more mods?

[katie200]

We should all know by now that the tuner's claims are a scam. It's impossible to gain power through adaptations (entropy) because the ECU adapts DOWN, not UP. The ECU is programmed with optimal timing and AFR targets. But the crappy gas we get won't let the ECU hit those targets, so it has to adapt -- and when it adapts, it adapts to lower numbers.

[M3PO]

What tune would be best for me if I have a drop-in filter, pulley, x-pipe with HFC, and an axle back?

[sales@ESSTuning]

Originally Posted by X_fuera

Interesting. So is it accurate to say that the safety/performance of aftermarket tunes is driven by the target variables chosen by the tuner? Is there a general sense of how conservative the engineers at M division were when programming these targets into ECU? Another question - do the "best" target variables differ if you have more or less mods? For example, are the "best" AFR and timing numbers different between a catless xpipe setup vs a catted xpipe setup? If so, why? If not, once you have the "best" numbers, why would you ever need an updated tune when you add more mods?

The vehicle stock or tuned will always attempt to hit it's programmed targets. It will vary its actual settings based on conditions given such as fuel quality, ambient temp, altitude etc... It will always run target AFR's and will attempt to correct when needed.

Every motor is different but most have some power left on the table by the factory. For example the Mercedes C63 AMG can gain 60+ whp safely with a proper tune as that motor comes from the factory detuned. The M3's S65 has about 15-20 whp you can extract safely with proper tuning depending on fuel quality. There is no secret to make a lot of power on this motor. We have seen amateur tuners attempt to make more power by raising the timing targets beyond the threshold of what the ECU can correct for. This is not only a waste of time it is also very dangerous. These motors are not cheap to replace when something goes wrong, this is why it is always wise to do your homework on the company or person tuning your M3. Also take much of what you read on forums with a grain of salt as most people post what they think or what hey heard and very few have a real working knowledge of how these systems function.

[sales@ESSTuning]

Originally Posted by M3PO

What tune would be best for me if I have a drop-in filter, pulley, x-pipe with HFC, and an axle back?

I cant speak for other tuners but our standard HFC tune would work well with your setup.

[M3PO]

Originally Posted by Roman@ESS

I cant speak for other tuners but our standard HFC tune would work well with your setup.

Okay, thanks. What's the rough cost on that? Please PM me if you don't want to post it here.

[advanced101]

Originally Posted by M3PO

Okay, thanks. What's the rough cost on that? Please PM me if you don't want to post it here.

http://www.esstuning.com/products/E9...-Software.html

[GIdriver]

Intresting and informative thread.

[IMG]

Originally Posted by X_fuera

That pretty well sums up how I feel too, which brought me to post my question in the first place as this doesn't necessarily seem like the popular position on the forum. Most tuning posts I see have people recommending getting this tune or that tune, with few if any posts talking about custom dyno tuning or follow up time on a dyno to check out how the mail order tune is running.

This topic has been heavily covered on this forum. Just search for "OE Tuning" or "Powerchip custom tune" or similar. You should be able to find all of the threads about custom tuning, including the ones I mentioned where the tuner was telling people their power would continue to increase after adaptations and the customers saying they would go get an independent dyno the next day...then abruptly disappeared and never post the independent dyno results.

I'm not sure Powerchip offers these "custom tunes" any longer.That was something their local US tuner was doing. He later started "OE Tuning" -- and I'm sure if you search enough, you can find out the story behind that as well along with many other flame-filled threads on the topic.

ECU tunes have also been heavily dyno'd. Just check the dyno database @ www.bmwdynodatabase.com. ~475 dyno charts for this motor.The database is searchable too by mods, dyno type, etc.

Originally Posted by THE TECH

Honestly, with the reputation of the available canned tunes, you really can't go wrong. They are not tuning on the ragged edge by any means and the computer still has all the fail safes. Yes, a dyno tune would always be better but for the end results and money spent, you will likely not be further ahead.

Buyer beware because not all tunes are safe. The same guy doing all of these "custom tunes" was also disabling all of the engine computer safety mechanisms. So when a problem occurred, you wouldn't even get a check engine light. It's another topic that was heavily discussed and debated. Like I said, these guys and their once-faithful supporters have all disappeared from the forums. I think that's the most significant take-away from this entire discussion because it tells you they didn't last the test of time.

[stefan]

Great info.. thanks img and Roman. Do you guys have any more technical data or even tech opinion on the subject somewhere?

Originally Posted by Roman@ESS

Every motor is different but most have some power left on the table by the factory. For example the Mercedes C63 AMG can gain 60+ whp safely with a proper tune as that motor comes from the factory detuned. The M3's S65 has about 15-20 whp you can extract safely with proper tuning depending on fuel quality.

15-20whp is actually slighter higher than what I had expected in that context.

[THE TECH]

So just name the person(s) you are referring to img.