New take on HPFP failures?

[boostm3]

So, today, after putting down a deposit on a 2011 135i, I went to talk to my srvc advisor, and I started asking him about the whole HPFP thing... I expected to hear him talk about how the single turbo engine for '11 is addressing this problem and thats why we're not hearing about it with the '11s.

But instead, he starts talking about Ethanol! Yup... He told me that some off price gas stations use 15 or 20% ethanol, and the HPFPs are meant to use up to 10% but not more.. He said with the '11s, there is a new HPFP better made to handle the ethanol in the gas over here..

Is this even logical? Is the pump even sensitive to this issue? Who knows?! Sense or Nonsense?! Havent they failed with cars which only used name brand gas? I really dont know... They said on the '11s they are using new HPFPs that can better deal with the ethanol. Since Ive never heard this before, i tend to think its bs, but Im not sure we'll ever know whether its the Twin turbo engine that was at fault, or the Ethanol, or the Audi Gods...!!

[ptack]

The pump failure may also be the result of other failures such as a fuel sensor. Presumably BMW has figured out the likely cause (look up the latest in the engine forum, I stopped tracking it), but I think we can assume it's not as simple as a flaw with the pump itself. That would have been easily caught and corrected. Most likely this is a combination of factors such as fuel quality, operating parameters (is the car being pushed hard), and one or more interreliant parts with a low tolerance for deviation from spec. The SA may be correct in the sense that BMW may have specified a more robust system for the N55 models.

[bryce]

Originally Posted by booth99

I thought I read a thread on here saying that the N54/N55 shared the same HPFP.

you are correct, sir

[boostm3]

Originally Posted by bryce

you are correct, sir

Then, bmw is feeding a line to its dealers....

[Haywood]

It's an easy assumption...but he hasn't read this forum. I am definitely in the camp that ethanol is not the cause. If you read all the threads, this is a worldwide issue and not just the States. Ethanol is a joke and it has it's issues, but it hasn't caused all the HPFP failures.

[boostm3]

Originally Posted by Haywood

It's an easy assumption...but he hasn't read this forum. I am definitely in the camp that ethanol is not the cause. If you read all the threads, this is a worldwide issue and not just the States. Ethanol is a joke and it has it's issues, but it hasn't caused all the HPFP failures.

Im not doubting you. Im just saying that at least my dealer was apprised by BMW that this was the most likely cause. Or, at least, my srvc advisor! Perhaps he got it wrong; perhaps this was his own theory!! Any of it is possible.. At first I thought the ethanol theory was nuts.. But I have no idea what ethanol does to the seals in these pumps... I have a water injection system in my M3 to cool the intake charge, and I know that over 50% methanol will destroy the seals in the Aquamist pump, so it didnt ultimately seem all that far fetched to me.. But Im sure, also, that its more than that.

[FJUNO78]

your dealer is a boob. Pumps have failed during ED with just a few 100 miles on the car.

Just this week when getting a new pump, the receptionist at the service desk explained the hpfp debacle as "a bad batch of fuel pumps went out"... I really don't blame her, they are programmed to give these responses.

[escobar929]

Originally Posted by FJUNO78

your dealer is a boob. Pumps have failed during ED with just a few 100 miles on the car.

Just this week when getting a new pump, the receptionist at the service desk explained the hpfp debacle as "a bad batch of fuel pumps went out"... I really don't blame her, they are programmed to give these responses.

exactly they are all talking out of their asses. I was told when I bought my 2010 that all problems have been resolved, to which I just smiled and said, sure...

[Absorber]

Originally Posted by Haywood

It's an easy assumption...but he hasn't read this forum. I am definitely in the camp that ethanol is not the cause. If you read all the threads, this is a worldwide issue and not just the States. Ethanol is a joke and it has it's issues, but it hasn't caused all the HPFP failures.

Ethanol is sold worldwide. Not in the same numbers as in the US or Brazil, but enough that it could conceivably be the cause of the HPFP abroad.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol...nce_by_country

[Absorber]

Originally Posted by maxnix

Putting more than 10% of more expensive ethanol in gasoline blend and sending it to discount dealers doesn't make any sense.

BMW has a list of top tier fuel companies that they recommend owners use because those companies have strict controls over the additives in their fuel. They claim other brands have more variation in their fuel mixture. An improper mixture could cause damage. Why is that so difficult to comprehend?

[TMR013]

Originally Posted by Absorber

BMW has a list of top tier fuel companies that they recommend owners use because those companies have strict controls over the additives in their fuel. They claim other brands have more variation in their fuel mixture. An improper mixture could cause damage. Why is that so difficult to comprehend?

Not sure I buy that either. The fuel companys all say they have these "higher standards", but the fact of the matter is the gas all comes from the same pipelines, there is batch mixing going on all the time, they can't control it as much as they say. I think its just advertising bull.

As far as the story from he SA, I've heard the same thing. But they guy I talked to at my dealer was one of the lead guys there and he made it sound like ethenol is only part of the problem, he started laying out vaporization rates and all kinds of other minutia detail, that basically added up to the gas is all crap. And he made it sound like this was his opinion, not like he was relaying some line from BMWNA.

[Nifty]

I agree with many above. Ethanol is not the problem here.

I've been putting 93oct with zero ethanol in my car since I got it, and I have been rewarded with 3 pump failures within 12,000 miles. Not only that, but if a PUMA case is opened to replace a HPFP, testing the fuel is part of procedure and if ethanol over 10% was causing the problem we would be seeing a ton of people failing fuel tests.

Just a theory, but I suspect that there is a system issue that has been causing the problems and not the pump itself and that it's cheaper for BMW to continue to replace new pumps rather than fix the root cause. Since the n54 and n55 share the same pump, if we don't see failures occuring in the n55's then something is definately fishy.

[FJUNO78]

Originally Posted by Absorber

BMW has a list of top tier fuel companies that they recommend owners use because those companies have strict controls over the additives in their fuel. They claim other brands have more variation in their fuel mixture. An improper mixture could cause damage. Why is that so difficult to comprehend?

So why are there people who have put nothing but Chevron or Shell 93 in their car still failing?

Everyone with a failure should file a complaint with the government... especially if you experienced loss of power when driving.

[My135]

I don't think Ethanol will cause a HPFP failure, but it does cause carbon build up within the cylinder head since our cars are direct fuel injection. Part (or upper part) of the cylinder head won't touch (or clean) by the injected fuel. The unwanted carbon build up may build around the edge of the values which cause other problems. My BA told me that this is a high performance engine and we have to floor it some time to flush out the carbon build up to avoid problems.

[TMR013]

Originally Posted by My135

I don't think Ethanol will cause a HPFP failure, but it does cause carbon build up within the cylinder head since our cars are direct fuel injection. Part (or upper part) of the cylinder head won't touch (or clean) by the injected fuel. The unwanted carbon build up may build around the edge of the values which cause other problems. My BA told me that this is a high performance engine and we have to floor it some time to flush out the carbon build up to avoid problems.

Advise I have no problem following.

[halfmonkey]

I thought the problem had to do with the fuel pump needing to be primed before you actually start the engine...at least that's what I was told and heard.

[roundel]

Originally Posted by FJUNO78

your dealer is a boob. Pumps have failed during ED with just a few 100 miles on the car.

Just this week when getting a new pump, the receptionist at the service desk explained the hpfp debacle as "a bad batch of fuel pumps went out"... I really don't blame her, they are programmed to give these responses.

+1000

[roundel]

Originally Posted by halfmonkey

I thought the problem had to do with the fuel pump needing to be primed before you actually start the engine...at least that's what I was told and heard.

Let's hope. I'm on my second but it's in storage until the winter basically as I drive the 5.0 as daily driver.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by boostm3

Im not doubting you. Im just saying that at least my dealer was apprised by BMW that this was the most likely cause. Or, at least, my srvc advisor! Perhaps he got it wrong; perhaps this was his own theory!! Any of it is possible.. At first I thought the ethanol theory was nuts.. But I have no idea what ethanol does to the seals in these pumps... I have a water injection system in my M3 to cool the intake charge, and I know that over 50% methanol will destroy the seals in the Aquamist pump, so it didnt ultimately seem all that far fetched to me.. But Im sure, also, that its more than that.

The theory that it's the fuel, ethanol level in particular, is not new.
It does sound like this may be that techs opinion on the matter.
But, just because one is a BMW tech doesn't mean that they know the engineering behind these things better than some on auto boards.

I would ask him this, if it is the seals then BMW would have know that right away from a tear down of any number of broken pumps. And, if indeed it were the seals, the BMW could have easily spec's different seals to deal with the added level of ethanol dispensed at some stations throughout the US and Canada. So, if it is the pump seals, there is a solution. Then why not spec new seals, build new pumps, and be done?
Consider how many cars in N. America use the same gasoline as our cars, and their seals aren't failing at this rate.
Point again, is that there are seals that do work, and BMW could have fixed that easily, IF that were the actual problem.

Also, BMW engineers are well versed in the type of fuel used in the countries they sell cars in. Would they really have been that wrong?
Would they have spec'd seals that would under perform in one of their biggest markets, North America?

It's possible though. But, it's also an easy fix. So, it doesn't really make sense that it's just the seals.

My dealer tech told me, a couple of months ago, that BMW WILL be issuing a recall on the pumps. But, the recall will be in segments, meaning older cars first. He was convinced that this is going to happen and "soon".
It's been nearly 3 months and no word yet.
So, take what a tech tells you with the proverbial grain of salt.

[boostm3]

Originally Posted by RPM90

The theory that it's the fuel, ethanol level in particular, is not new.
It does sound like this may be that techs opinion on the matter.
But, just because one is a BMW tech doesn't mean that they know the engineering behind these things better than some on auto boards.

I would ask him this, if it is the seals then BMW would have know that right away from a tear down of any number of broken pumps. And, if indeed it were the seals, the BMW could have easily spec's different seals to deal with the added level of ethanol dispensed at some stations throughout the US and Canada. So, if it is the pump seals, there is a solution. Then why not spec new seals, build new pumps, and be done?
Consider how many cars in N. America use the same gasoline as our cars, and their seals aren't failing at this rate.
Point again, is that there are seals that do work, and BMW could have fixed that easily, IF that were the actual problem.

Also, BMW engineers are well versed in the type of fuel used in the countries they sell cars in. Would they really have been that wrong?
Would they have spec'd seals that would under perform in one of their biggest markets, North America?

It's possible though. But, it's also an easy fix. So, it doesn't really make sense that it's just the seals.

My dealer tech told me, a couple of months ago, that BMW WILL be issuing a recall on the pumps. But, the recall will be in segments, meaning older cars first. He was convinced that this is going to happen and "soon".
It's been nearly 3 months and no word yet.
So, take what a tech tells you with the proverbial grain of salt.

What you say makes sense... about the recall, what would they replace the pumps with? You mean, theyve got something better, and have chosen not to use it?

[esses]

My SA was absolutely dumbfounded when I rolled up my windows with CA. It took them twice as long as BMW says it should to install some performance parts. Just 'cause they work for BMW does not mean they know a single thing about your 1er..

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by boostm3

What you say makes sense... about the recall, what would they replace the pumps with? You mean, theyve got something better, and have chosen not to use it?

Well that's the question.
As I said you've got to take information with a grain of sale, because what a particular SA is saying may or may not be what BMW is saying.
My SA is well aware of the HPFP problems. He feels that all of these engines should have their pumps replaced, but he has to abide by BMW's rules too.

But, what does he replace it with? If BMW has THE solution, then a recall makes sense. It would mean that they have the problem worked out and now have a definitive solution. If they don't, then a recall is economically pointless. Why? Because they would be replacing a faulty part with a different part that may not fix the problem. So, they replace all these pumps only to have to continue replacing pumps that go bad.
That's too costly.

My SA says that the newest pump, released around Jan/Feb of this year, is THE fix. If it is then BMW will or should issue a recall. The problem will then be fixed, and BMW will only have to do this once to every engine and move one. But, will they? Do have a pump that fixes this problem definitively?

So the question of whether they have a fix and don't want to do a recall is a good question, and it's THE question. It's possible that they do have the fix, but don't want to issue a recall as that will cost a lot of money.
But, if they don't issue a recall, and they have a real fix, then it's lessens their reputation and credibility.
Which way to go?

It's unfortunate, but it may take legal action to get BMW to tell the truth.
If they are hiding the fix in order to save money, they will be found in default of their contractual warranty obligation. It could be "fraud".
Is BMW willing to risk this, especially in such economic times?
If they are called to task and are found guilty, it will hurt their sales.

I don't have an answer to your question, cause I just don't know, and I don't think anyone on these boards does either. Many have their opinion though. I'm sure there are those who think BMW knows the problem and solution, but will simply wait it out and replace only the pumps that go bad, risking the truth be told.
But, BMW may not have a true fix. If that is true, then a recall won't be coming, at least not a voluntary one.
If the NHTSA receives enough SAFETY claims, where they find that a pump failure is a safety issue, then the NHSTA can issue a mandatory recall.
But, the NHTSA is only concerned with safety issues caused by faulty mechanical or electrical parts. They don't issue recalls just because there is a mechanical problem without a safety issue.