Dealer thinks my coilover causes my brakes problem and refuses to fix it

[akak1997]

The Problem
I’ve posted this on the Suspension and Brakes forum but didn’t really get much help. So anyways, I’ve been having this problem with my brakes for over a month now, it starts off as a weird noise coming from the brakes when I’m braking hard, even at ~30mph. It feels as if the brake is not gripping hard enough, it’s not the ABS as there’s no kick from the brakes. Also, after the initial noise, when I start off again, I can hear this whirling noise coming from the engine. It’s hard to describe the noises, but they’re very different. The problem gotten worse after a few weeks, when I start the car after it’s been parked for a while; the brake pedal is very firm. It is just like if I pump the brakes with the car off, and used up the vacuum stored in the brake booster. The startup brake losing booster problem isn’t consistent, I might park the car overnight and it happens maybe 60% of the time, if I park it at work for 3hrs or so, it happens 80% of the time. It’s just very random. Other than this problem the brake works well as a DD, I have not tracked the car lately, and didn't ran into any Life Or Death (i.e. 80mph to 0) braking situation, so I don't know what it'd do if that happens. I just don't feel safe driving the car knowing the brake isn't acting normal.

What I think it is
I think there’s a leak in the vacuum system for the brake booster, it maybe the vacuum lines, the vacuum pump or the brake booster itself. This is the only thing I can think of that explains the noise from braking, i.e. brake booster isn’t supplying enough assist, and the brake pads aren’t grabbing the discs hard enough and/or the pressure isn’t consistent, hence the brake pads are vibrating on the discs. The whirling noise is because the vacuums pump is working extra hard to draw a vacuum when I get going again. The inconsistent occurrence of the startup brake booster lost issue might be because the leak is on the booster itself, if the booster isn’t seat correct after being pressed, it leaks. What do you guys think?

The dealer visits
Visit #1: At first I think it’s just brake wearing, and might need a rotor/pad replacement, so I took it in during schedule oil change and have the dealer take a look. They claim they couldn’t reproduce the problem, and my pad wear is normal and don’t need to be replaced yet.
Visit #2: After I suspect that my brake booster system is leaking, so I took it in again, the SA said they couldn’t reproduce either problem and suggested me to schedule a test drive with the tech to diagnose the problem.
Visit #3: So I went in the 3rd time, and when I meet the tech, he commented, I know exactly what the problem is, before the test drive. He said the car is lowered, that’s why it happens. I kinda get that as a joke, because this dealer has been pretty cool with my mods. Aside from my suspension mods, I also have a massive strut bar, intake and exhaust. My SA noticed my confused look and insisted the tech to test drive with me anyways. I’s able to reproduce the weird noise during the initial braking and the whirling noise after I start off again, the tech also hears it. When we’re back to the dealership, the tech did a few test, open the hood, rev the car a bit with the brake pedal down at the same time (while car is stationary). I’m not sure what he’s trying to find out by doing that, I’m just standing there enjoying the beautiful exhaust note from my car . I left the car there overnight as they weren’t able to find the problem the same day. The next day, my SA called and said they cannot find anything wrong with the car, and it is most likely because the car is lowered. I’s like wtf? How can lowering the car cause the brake not to function properly? Besides, it’s like at most 1” lowered from stock. The SA also mentions that they won’t put the actual reason down on the paperwork (i.e. aftermarket part causing problems) because that will cause my car to be “Flagged”. He said I could take it in again when I return to stock.

My thought on this dealership
This dealership is recommended by a member of this forum, he is also one of the tech at that dealership. He's the one who works on my car, but I guess this time, the floorman actually did the test drive, I'm not sure what other things he could do. However, I just couldn’t think of a reason why my suspension could cause the brake to act that way. I mean, if the tech comes back and say, I’ve modified my brake lines, and cause this problem, there might be a chance that I’ll buy it, but telling me that my suspension causes the brake booster to act funny? Come on… I understand that putting in aftermarket parts is always a grey area when comes to dealers repair, but this dealer had been pretty good with my mods until this time. I mean I’ve an intake and exhaust, and they never give me any problems when I take my car in. They’ve promptly replaced 2 HPFP for me w/o all the questions and problems I’ve heard from the forums. Also, during the 3rd visit, I ask the tech whether I should get the lastest DME upgrade, he ask if I've Proceed/Jb3/Flash tune, and advice me not to get that DME upgrade as it might register code with those tune (probably BS, but at least he'll talk openly about mods)

What to do next?
I just don't know how I should proceed with this. I don’t have a problem if I’ve to remove my suspension if it’s really causing the problem. In fact, if that’s really the root cause, I’d even pay for the repair. But refusing to fix a problem that’s unrelated to my mod is just not acceptable. Can anyone think of any reason why suspension could cause this kind of brake issues?
I’m actually contemplating to change the spring rate on my KW V3 in the future, so if I’ve to uninstall it to get the dealership to fix my brakes, I’d just do that mod sooner (and camber plates!). However, my fear is that they couldn’t still figure out what the problem is, and start blaming my exhaust, intake, non OEM run flat tires, windows tint, etc.

I'm actually loosing sleep over this. Please help.

Thank You

[My135]

A lower suspension should not cause any brake problem. You can argue that even BMW sport (came with 135) and performance suspensions are lower than non-sport (came with 128), and the lower ride height did not cause any brake problem. To solve your problem, you can always take it to another BMW dealer to fix.

[gnat]

You said they checked your pads, do you know if they checked the inner and outer pads? I've run into issues (on my Escape) where the outer pad looked great but the inner pad had been ground bare (and trashed the inside of the rotor). It had some of the feel issues you describe, but not the noises (had the typical break grinding noises).

As far as you suspension causing the problem, I don't think it's likely but I would check it over real good to make sure that nothing is being rubbed or pinched.

It will be some out of pocket, but I would suggest taking it to a good independent shop and having them take a look. At the very least you'll have a professional to back you that it's not the suspension, but you may also be able to tell the dealer exactly what they need to fix. I wouldn't go to your friend that works at the dealer as that could put him in a bad place regardless of if he agrees or not (e.g. you thinking he is taking their side or his management not being happy he isn't following their line).

-dave

[fancyfl1ght]

Originally Posted by akak1997

The Problem
I’ve posted this on the Suspension and Brakes forum but didn’t really get much help. So anyways, I’ve been having this problem with my brakes for over a month now, it starts off as a weird noise coming from the brakes when I’m braking hard, even at ~30mph. It feels as if the brake is not gripping hard enough, it’s not the ABS as there’s no kick from the brakes. Also, after the initial noise, when I start off again, I can hear this whirling noise coming from the engine. It’s hard to describe the noises, but they’re very different. The problem gotten worse after a few weeks, when I start the car after it’s been parked for a while; the brake pedal is very firm. It is just like if I pump the brakes with the car off, and used up the vacuum stored in the brake booster. The startup brake losing booster problem isn’t consistent, I might park the car overnight and it happens maybe 60% of the time, if I park it at work for 3hrs or so, it happens 80% of the time. It’s just very random. Other than this problem the brake works well as a DD, I have not tracked the car lately, and didn't ran into any Life Or Death (i.e. 80mph to 0) braking situation, so I don't know what it'd do if that happens. I just don't feel safe driving the car knowing the brake isn't acting normal.

What I think it is
I think there’s a leak in the vacuum system for the brake booster, it maybe the vacuum lines, the vacuum pump or the brake booster itself. This is the only thing I can think of that explains the noise from braking, i.e. brake booster isn’t supplying enough assist, and the brake pads aren’t grabbing the discs hard enough and/or the pressure isn’t consistent, hence the brake pads are vibrating on the discs. The whirling noise is because the vacuums pump is working extra hard to draw a vacuum when I get going again. The inconsistent occurrence of the startup brake booster lost issue might be because the leak is on the booster itself, if the booster isn’t seat correct after being pressed, it leaks. What do you guys think?

The dealer visits
Visit #1: At first I think it’s just brake wearing, and might need a rotor/pad replacement, so I took it in during schedule oil change and have the dealer take a look. They claim they couldn’t reproduce the problem, and my pad wear is normal and don’t need to be replaced yet.
Visit #2: After I suspect that my brake booster system is leaking, so I took it in again, the SA said they couldn’t reproduce either problem and suggested me to schedule a test drive with the tech to diagnose the problem.
Visit #3: So I went in the 3rd time, and when I meet the tech, he commented, I know exactly what the problem is, before the test drive. He said the car is lowered, that’s why it happens. I kinda get that as a joke, because this dealer has been pretty cool with my mods. Aside from my suspension mods, I also have a massive strut bar, intake and exhaust. My SA noticed my confused look and insisted the tech to test drive with me anyways. I’s able to reproduce the weird noise during the initial braking and the whirling noise after I start off again, the tech also hears it. When we’re back to the dealership, the tech did a few test, open the hood, rev the car a bit with the brake pedal down at the same time (while car is stationary). I’m not sure what he’s trying to find out by doing that, I’m just standing there enjoying the beautiful exhaust note from my car . I left the car there overnight as they weren’t able to find the problem the same day. The next day, my SA called and said they cannot find anything wrong with the car, and it is most likely because the car is lowered. I’s like wtf? How can lowering the car cause the brake not to function properly? Besides, it’s like at most 1” lowered from stock. The SA also mentions that they won’t put the actual reason down on the paperwork (i.e. aftermarket part causing problems) because that will cause my car to be “Flagged”. He said I could take it in again when I return to stock.

My thought on this dealership
This dealership is recommended by a member of this forum, he is also one of the tech at that dealership. He's the one who works on my car, but I guess this time, the floorman actually did the test drive, I'm not sure what other things he could do. However, I just couldn’t think of a reason why my suspension could cause the brake to act that way. I mean, if the tech comes back and say, I’ve modified my brake lines, and cause this problem, there might be a chance that I’ll buy it, but telling me that my suspension causes the brake booster to act funny? Come on… I understand that putting in aftermarket parts is always a grey area when comes to dealers repair, but this dealer had been pretty good with my mods until this time. I mean I’ve an intake and exhaust, and they never give me any problems when I take my car in. They’ve promptly replaced 2 HPFP for me w/o all the questions and problems I’ve heard from the forums. Also, during the 3rd visit, I ask the tech whether I should get the lastest DME upgrade, he ask if I've Proceed/Jb3/Flash tune, and advice me not to get that DME upgrade as it might register code with those tune (probably BS, but at least he'll talk openly about mods)

What to do next?
I just don't know how I should proceed with this. I don’t have a problem if I’ve to remove my suspension if it’s really causing the problem. In fact, if that’s really the root cause, I’d even pay for the repair. But refusing to fix a problem that’s unrelated to my mod is just not acceptable. Can anyone think of any reason why suspension could cause this kind of brake issues?
I’m actually contemplating to change the spring rate on my KW V3 in the future, so if I’ve to uninstall it to get the dealership to fix my brakes, I’d just do that mod sooner (and camber plates!). However, my fear is that they couldn’t still figure out what the problem is, and start blaming my exhaust, intake, non OEM run flat tires, windows tint, etc.

I'm actually loosing sleep over this. Please help.

Thank You

They will sort you out pronto. No issues with modding. The service manager there is one smart guy and can quote you the Moss Magnuson Act verbatim.

[techlogik]

Something doesn't add up, I must have missed something with your story. You say that the "tech", who is a member on the forum here, and he works at the dealer, recommended you bring your car there. But the "floorman" did the test drive?

Yet, you keep referring back to the "tech", a.k.a. "forum member" over and over, unless you are now referring to another "tech", as the person who you are talking to and are writing like the person who is telling you this first hand?

Then the "tech" says something stupid like, "flashing your DME might affect your "tune"?" What?!?!

The whole suspension thing is a crock also...complete stupidity.

Have you talked to the service manager? Probably an idiot also chances are, you might have to run this up the pole to the GM at this rate.

Although the person above says they will "sort it all out" and the service manager is some rocket scientist apparently.

Good luck.

[michifan]

Originally Posted by gnat

You said they checked your pads, do you know if they checked the inner and outer pads? I've run into issues (on my Escape) where the outer pad looked great but the inner pad had been ground bare (and trashed the inside of the rotor). It had some of the feel issues you describe, but not the noises (had the typical break grinding noises).

As far as you suspension causing the problem, I don't think it's likely but I would check it over real good to make sure that nothing is being rubbed or pinched.

It will be some out of pocket, but I would suggest taking it to a good independent shop and having them take a look. At the very least you'll have a professional to back you that it's not the suspension, but you may also be able to tell the dealer exactly what they need to fix. I wouldn't go to your friend that works at the dealer as that could put him in a bad place regardless of if he agrees or not (e.g. you thinking he is taking their side or his management not being happy he isn't following their line).

-dave

I would take this a step further.

Get, in writing, specifically why your dealer believes that the coil-overs have created the brake problem.

Contact a local lemon lawyer and get him to recommend a mechanic that he'd use as an expert witness (if need be).

Go to the mechanic and get his assessment, in writing.

Contact the Regional BMW rep and calmly and firmly plead your case. Give him the opportunity to 'make things right'. Without being threatening, let him know that you've already gone to an expert mechanic and if need be will go to a lawyer to enforce your MMA rights (he'll know that if they lose, they pick up the tab).

In my professional experience, if you have taken these steps, most manufacturers aren't going to press the case. If they really feel that your coil-overs created the problem, they might split the difference with you.

Even if you have to pay out of pocket, this doesn't take away your ability to sue under MMA.


Hope this helps. The burden of proof does fall on the dealer in this case, but they have a lot of experts. My experience from my days at Ford was that we only rejected when we were certain that we had the facts to reject the warranty claim. If we didn't know we'd win in court, we'd settle as it cost us a lot more than the consumer and the risk of loss is actually tilted in the consumers favor.

[jpd]

I concur get a second opinion, and ask that it's in writing. Don't bash the dealer. I'm not sure the burden of proof is on the dealer. You can also go to the shop who lowered the car and get their opinion. Also try an independent BMW shop for another.

[michifan]

Originally Posted by jpd

I concur get a second opinion, and ask that it's in writing. Don't bash the dealer. I'm not sure the burden of proof is on the dealer. You can also go to the shop who lowered the car and get their opinion. Also try an independent BMW shop for another.

Burden of Proof is always on the dealer / manufacturer. MMA is a Federal Law enforced by the FTC, which states.

"a warrantor cannot, as a matter of law, avoid liability under a written warranty where a defect is unrelated to the use by a consumer of unauthorized articles or service. This does not preclude a warrantor from expressly excluding liability for defects or damage caused by such unauthorized articles or service; nor does it preclude the warrantor from denying liability where the warrantor can demonstrate that the defect or damage was so caused."

BMW must demonstrate that the defect was caused by the coil-overs or fix the problem.

I agree that you don't want to be overly aggressive with the dealer, because I'm willing to bet that unless your coil-overs in some way DID harm the brakes, the dealer/BMW regional is going to get this right.

[guydude]

CALL BMW NA!!! 1-800-831-1117

Iv had my share of BS with BMW dealerships...BMW NA seems to make things magically happen....GL

[akak1997]

oops, I guess I did messed up the people in the story here.
The guy who test drove with me is, I think the floorman, he's the one who made the comment about the lowering and the DME upgrade might cause more code to be thrown if I've a tune. The tech that works on my car is a forum member who recommended me that particular dealership.

I Do not know who the Service Manager is for that dealership.

I try not to raise hell until I get all my facts, i.e. my suspension is indeed not affecting the brakes. I like the idea of getting another mechanic to take a look, now I'll just have to figure out where I can take my car to get it examined. Thanks for the support guys.

Originally Posted by techlogik

Something doesn't add up, I must have missed something with your story. You say that the "tech", who is a member on the forum here, and he works at the dealer, recommended you bring your car there. But the "floorman" did the test drive?

Yet, you keep referring back to the "tech", a.k.a. "forum member" over and over, unless you are now referring to another "tech", as the person who you are talking to and are writing like the person who is telling you this first hand?

Then the "tech" says something stupid like, "flashing your DME might affect your "tune"?" What?!?!

The whole suspension thing is a crock also...complete stupidity.

Have you talked to the service manager? Probably an idiot also chances are, you might have to run this up the pole to the GM at this rate.

Although the person above says they will "sort it all out" and the service manager is some rocket scientist apparently.

Good luck.

[NewYearsBoy]

Im sorry but BMW finds any way they can to get out of fixing anything for the car... They say the most ridiculous things too... My car was in for service 1 ta 2 times every month (for 4 months brand new car) and BMW relations told me my service records are very PEDESTRIAN!!!??!!! Like its normal for the car to be in service all the time... Haha..

[NewYearsBoy]

Originally Posted by guydude

CALL BMW NA!!! 1-800-831-1117

Iv had my share of BS with BMW dealerships...BMW NA seems to make things magically happen....GL

They gave me the run around... And then a dead end....

[gnat]

Originally Posted by Stoutnj89

Like its normal for the car to be in service all the time... Haha..

Maybe that person previously worked for Jaguar

For all the hassle it gave me, I still miss that car

-dave

[Robert]

Revert the system back to stock and bring the car back in.

[Evolution Racewerks]

Give me a call or text. I can get this resolved for you if you don't mind driving 20 miles.

[akak1997]

Originally Posted by maxnix

Not sure I concur with your analysis of the brake booster vacuum leak.

You need to post the technician's precise diagnosis.

The only explanation I got from the dealer is that the car is lowered, hence, I've this problem. My SA mention that if they put this "Actual" diagnosis in the paperwork, my car will get Flagged. So on the paperwork it just simply say it is a normal noise experienced by the similar a mileage car.

What do you think it could be?

Thanks

[michifan]

Originally Posted by akak1997

The only explanation I got from the dealer is that the car is lowered, hence, I've this problem. My SA mention that if they put this "Actual" diagnosis in the paperwork, my car will get Flagged. So on the paperwork it just simply say it is a normal noise experienced by the similar a mileage car.

What do you think it could be?

Thanks

Getting 'flagged' is like being on super-secret probation?

The dealer knows that you've modded your suspension and has already refused warranty work. Guy isn't doing you a favor, and I wouldn't be surprised that you have your suspension noted.

Get in writing why they are refusing the warranty work. Yes, they will 'note' that you have a modded suspension, but you do- and aren't trying to hide it.

[ianc]

What does being 'flagged' mean exactly?

It sounds like a scare tactic to keep you from taking their refusal to diagnose your problem to the next level.

ianc

[escobar929]

Originally Posted by ianc

What does being 'flagged' mean exactly?

It sounds like a scare tactic to keep you from taking their refusal to diagnose your problem to the next level.

ianc

[onefastman]

I never got a strait answer on what flagged means. My car is flagged for engine mods and have never had a problem since but if I need to get something fixed I would like to know what it means.

Thoughts?

[michifan]

Originally Posted by maxnix

I bet flagged means if you have a terminal engine failure, they pull the flag out and wave it and say, "We're not responsible for your engine's failure!"

In this specific instance, all he has is a modded suspension, which if installed properly shouldn't be any more likely to cause a engine failure than his ipod. Of course they aren't going to warrant the suspension, because it isn't BMW - or any damage that the suspension creates - but this idea that modded cars are 'flagged' is more urban legend than anything else.

Dealers do take notes, and will note any modification that they find relevant. If you have a tune, they have the right to note it as well. But, no matter what, the manufacturer has the responsibility to demonstrate that the tune specifically caused the problem. Even if you pull your tune every time you go to the dealer, they are going to do a forensic analysis before they replace an engine under warranty. If a tune causes a problem, a decent mechanic will be able to tell without reading the notes.

[BlackjackMulligan]

Originally Posted by michifan

In this specific instance, all he has is a modded suspension, which if installed properly shouldn't be any more likely to cause a engine failure than his ipod. Of course they aren't going to warrant the suspension, because it isn't BMW - or any damage that the suspension creates - but this idea that modded cars are 'flagged' is more urban legend than anything else.

Dealers do take notes, and will note any modification that they find relevant. If you have a tune, they have the right to note it as well. But, no matter what, the manufacturer has the responsibility to demonstrate that the tune specifically caused the problem. Even if you pull your tune every time you go to the dealer, they are going to do a forensic analysis before they replace an engine under warranty. If a tune causes a problem, a decent mechanic will be able to tell without reading the notes.

From what I've heard, if the dealers find a tamper code evident, there is a process for them to "flag" it in the system. This doesn't seem very surprising to me, as any company has the ablility to place pertinant notes on their client's files for any number of reasons.