max HP without a tune

AlBel1214 · 09-16-2008, 08:27 AM

Anyone have a guestimate of the MAX HP you could get without a tune like (dinan, jb3, or SSTT)...

Maybe just an exhaust, new intake, downpipes?

Or any other mods that don't involve touching the ECU..

larryn · 09-16-2008, 08:32 AM

Intake, intercooler, DPs, catback will likely get you an additional 30hp or so (wild guess). The car would not be optimized though, without a corresponding tune, IMO, even if it were a mild tune.

Yearofthe1 · 09-16-2008, 08:43 AM

This is actually the exact route I'm going with for my 1er. I want to save any ecu tuning for last, only if I feel I need it after I'm done with everything else will I consider this route. I can't think of too many other ways to boost power than a good set of DP's, less restrictive exhaust, and a better flowing filter. I'm not so sure yet on the cost to power advantage of an intercooler, though. Besides power, I'm looking to lighten things up as well. I'll be throwing on some lighter wheels with PS2's, and if I can take the hit, the BMW performance complete brake kit.

frimmelnojerz · 09-16-2008, 08:45 AM

you might be losing power with that route.

Yearofthe1 · 09-16-2008, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frimmelnojerz

you might be losing power with that route.

Huh? :iono:

Care to explain yourself? I'm curious.

e90AW335i · 09-16-2008, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlBel1214

Anyone have a guestimate of the MAX HP you could get without a tune like (dinan, jb3, or SSTT)...

Maybe just an exhaust, new intake, downpipes?

Or any other mods that don't involve touching the ECU..

What is the point of this? I hope your reasoning is not due to warranty stuff because BMW will void you warranty for DPs, and intake just as quick as they will for a tune.

Also, most tunes out there now are undetectable and provide MUCH better power gains than DPs, intake, and exhaust would get you together.

arrutled · 09-16-2008, 10:25 AM

I would guess 30-40 extra hp from those mods. zero from intake from what i understand, which is why bmw isnt producing one but hey the sound could be cool! 8-10 hp from a catback, and 20-30 hp from a downpipe. plus you would be perfectly set up for a tune when the warranty runs up if thats your reasoning!

sam480 · 09-16-2008, 10:48 AM

IMO the physical mods are not effective without a tuned ECU. The reason being is that the stock ECU keeps the system within the designed parameters.

For example, a larger intercooler is installed, hence cooler and more dense air. The stock ECU sees more air and therefore adjust the F/A ratio,but the restriction in the stock DPs counter the F/A adjustment, therefore forcing the stock ECU to decrease overall performance to maintain certain parameters such as emission, wastegate cycling, and air intake pressure.

A tuned ECU tells the system, "Hey, you have these capabilities, so perform to these higher parameters". And so if your physical mods are of higher capabilities, then the 135i is golden and you have a never ending smile.

frimmelnojerz · 09-16-2008, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yearofthe1

Huh? :iono:

Care to explain yourself? I'm curious.

well...its from my limited experience that bolt ons do not benefit without software changes. Everything coming from the factory is designed specifically to work with the software created by the manufacturer. when you start to change hardware such as intakes and and intercoolers you're going to end up changing the parameters of how the car is specifically performing. I know this is true about intakes but to be honest the downpipes/exhaust are most likely going to yield gains because they free up stress on the turbos. but still, nothing is going to be optimal without a tune. If you want to worry about your warranty i suggest buying one thing to remove easily if theres an issue. and that one thing would be a chip. the rest of the bolt ons would be too time consuming to remove compared to a chip.

Trapperj · 09-16-2008, 11:11 AM

Buy a tune first IMHO. Many of the other modds are smoke and mirrors without a tune. Some may help a little....some may hurt..Have you ridden or drove a 1 or 3 series with a tune? Find someone to take you for a ride

Yearofthe1 · 09-16-2008, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frimmelnojerz

If you want to worry about your warranty i suggest buying one thing to remove easily if theres an issue. and that one thing would be a chip.

I never said anything about warranty, I just want to see what the car will do first without modding the ecu. If the power just isn't there, then yeah, an ecu tune will be the next step. At least by that point, though, I won't have the mechanical/physical limits imposed by the factory parts. Also, I've always made sure the brakes and suspension are up to the task of handling more power. Those upgrades will always be first on the list when boosting the car's power by any significant amount.

clived · 09-16-2008, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tskeen

Buy a tune first IMHO. Many of the other modds are smoke and mirrors without a tune. Some may help a little....some may hurt..Have you ridden or drove a 1 or 3 series with a tune? Find someone to take you for a ride

Surely adding the mods first and then getting the car custom mapped to take maximum advantage of them would be the best way to go?

holo777 · 09-16-2008, 02:58 PM

Does the ECU/DME impose torque limits? I seem to rember some talk about the computer cutting back on power if it thinks its making too much. Something like that might seriously limit non tune potential.

AlBel1214 · 09-16-2008, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by e90AW335i

What is the point of this? I hope your reasoning is not due to warranty stuff because BMW will void you warranty for DPs, and intake just as quick as they will for a tune.

Also, most tunes out there now are undetectable and provide MUCH better power gains than DPs, intake, and exhaust would get you together.

Well the intake can be easily swapped out... and a bmw perf exhaust won't void warrenty...

The DPs are another story but from some of the members on hear with downpipes I havent heard of anyone who took there car in for service that got any problems for having the DPs on (since its just an exhaust mod)...

Once you flash the ECU your done on warrenty... (b.c even if its a pain the downpipes could be removed if they had to be)

Italteen3 · 09-16-2008, 06:52 PM

I put the RR DP's in car and the power difference is VERY noticeable. The low-end torque was great!!! I say "was" because I put stock DPs back in for a little while :wink:. I MISS the extra power and sound already, after only a week back to stock.

As to the ECU adapting the A/F ratio with an intake I can't say yes or no to any power gains as I have the stock intake. With the DPs for the first day or two there was minimal gain. Once the car "learned" of it's easier exhaling capabilities it friggin pulled! Must do mod for anyone looking for power IMO. Another thing to mention about the DP's from Riss is that they are a high-quality product.

With all those mods IC, DPs, intake, full exhaust I don't see why 35-40rwhp isn't attainable.

e90AW335i · 09-16-2008, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlBel1214

Well the intake can be easily swapped out... and a bmw perf exhaust won't void warrenty...

The DPs are another story but from some of the members on hear with downpipes I havent heard of anyone who took there car in for service that got any problems for having the DPs on (since its just an exhaust mod)...

Once you flash the ECU your done on warrenty... (b.c even if its a pain the downpipes could be removed if they had to be)

Who is talking about a flash? I am talking about JB3, something that adds 80rwhp and can be taken out in 45min or less.

J-Sud · 09-16-2008, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by e90AW335i

Who is talking about a flash? I am talking about JB3, something that adds 80rwhp and can be taken out in 45min or less.

i dont think it takes you 45min :wink:

I will hit you up the weekend i come to town to pick up my car

e90AW335i · 09-16-2008, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J-Sud

i dont think it takes you 45min :wink:

I will hit you up the weekend i come to town to pick up my car

You got that right! :biggrin:

You car is already ready?!? Awesome man, lets get a JB3 on there ASAP!

adrean8j · 09-16-2008, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Italteen3

I put the RR DP's in car and the power difference is VERY noticeable. The low-end torque was great!!! I say "was" because I put stock DPs back in for a little while :wink:. I MISS the extra power and sound already, after only a week back to stock.

As to the ECU adapting the A/F ratio with an intake I can't say yes or no to any power gains as I have the stock intake. With the DPs for the first day or two there was minimal gain. Once the car "learned" of it's easier exhaling capabilities it friggin pulled! Must do mod for anyone looking for power IMO. Another thing to mention about the DP's from Riss is that they are a high-quality product.

With all those mods IC, DPs, intake, full exhaust I don't see why 35-40rwhp isn't attainable.

Did you take the DP's off because of the JB3? (too much power currently for our ECU software?).:iono:

Italteen3 · 09-16-2008, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adrean8j

Did you take the DP's off because of the JB3? (too much power currently for our ECU software?).:iono:

I have not purchased/installed a Tune yet. My ECU has not been touched by foreign hardware.:smile: Just comparing my car stock with my car a week and a half ago with DPs in. I'm not sure what I miss more the power or the sound, they were both SEXY!

My reason for taking them off is very silly but I had to for a little while(until spring).

SlapSmak · 09-16-2008, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yearofthe1

Besides power, I'm looking to lighten things up as well. I'll be throwing on some lighter wheels with PS2's, and if I can take the hit, the BMW performance complete brake kit.

I will save you some money. Buy a can of gold spraypaint and spray your calipers. you already have the performance calipers minus the BMW Performance decal. Just spend 220$ with Dan for the rotors.
Now with the 1800$ I just saved you, go buy a JB3, an SSTT or other ECU tuning unit and enjoy...

J-Sud · 09-17-2008, 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by e90AW335i

You got that right! :biggrin:

You car is already ready?!? Awesome man, lets get a JB3 on there ASAP!

its in route awaiting shipping vessel

but i hope to pick it up mid to late Oct...hopefully its here by then, but production is complete!

you have an extra JB3 to spare??? :biggrin:

09-16-2008, 08:27 AM	#1
AlBel1214 Major 52 Rep 1,118 Posts Drives: past 135i, now c6, future M3?? Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Philly iTrader: (0)	max HP without a tune Anyone have a guestimate of the MAX HP you could get without a tune like (dinan, jb3, or SSTT)... Maybe just an exhaust, new intake, downpipes? Or any other mods that don't involve touching the ECU..
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09-16-2008, 08:32 AM	#2
larryn Lieutenant General 2148 Rep 10,176 Posts Drives: '97 332ti, '21 X5 45e, '16 GT4 Join Date: May 2005 Location: Seattle iTrader: (2)	Intake, intercooler, DPs, catback will likely get you an additional 30hp or so (wild guess). The car would not be optimized though, without a corresponding tune, IMO, even if it were a mild tune.
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09-16-2008, 08:43 AM	#3
Yearofthe1 An ex-addict :-( 33 Rep 691 Posts Drives: VFR1200F Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: N. Va. iTrader: (1)	This is actually the exact route I'm going with for my 1er. I want to save any ecu tuning for last, only if I feel I need it after I'm done with everything else will I consider this route. I can't think of too many other ways to boost power than a good set of DP's, less restrictive exhaust, and a better flowing filter. I'm not so sure yet on the cost to power advantage of an intercooler, though. Besides power, I'm looking to lighten things up as well. I'll be throwing on some lighter wheels with PS2's, and if I can take the hit, the BMW performance complete brake kit. __________________ 135i Montego Blue, Grey Boston Leather, MT, Sport Package, Premium Package, Navi, Premium Sound, Heated Seats, iPod. [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] We search for certainty and call what we find destiny. Everything is possible, yet only one thing happens. -Michael and Ellen Kaplan
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09-16-2008, 08:45 AM	#4
frimmelnojerz Captain 23 Rep 692 Posts Drives: Montego blue 135i Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Bayonne, NJ iTrader: (0)	you might be losing power with that route. __________________ 08' 135 in much need of some TLC. But after that... Watch out. AA/Berk/ER/UR/CP-e/Snow/ESS
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09-16-2008, 10:25 AM	#7
arrutled Colonel 104 Rep 2,474 Posts Drives: Olsa Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Western Mass iTrader: (0)	I would guess 30-40 extra hp from those mods. zero from intake from what i understand, which is why bmw isnt producing one but hey the sound could be cool! 8-10 hp from a catback, and 20-30 hp from a downpipe. plus you would be perfectly set up for a tune when the warranty runs up if thats your reasoning! __________________ AW 135i w/ blackette, performance short shift kit, BMW alarm, Performance rotors, APEX ARC-8 wheels, Direzza Star Spec 235/275, Dinan stage 3 suspension, M3 wishbones/tension rods/front sway/rear subframe bushings and thats all folks!
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09-16-2008, 10:48 AM	#8
sam480 New Member 0 Rep 14 Posts Drives: slow Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: phoenix, az iTrader: (0)	IMO the physical mods are not effective without a tuned ECU. The reason being is that the stock ECU keeps the system within the designed parameters. For example, a larger intercooler is installed, hence cooler and more dense air. The stock ECU sees more air and therefore adjust the F/A ratio,but the restriction in the stock DPs counter the F/A adjustment, therefore forcing the stock ECU to decrease overall performance to maintain certain parameters such as emission, wastegate cycling, and air intake pressure. A tuned ECU tells the system, "Hey, you have these capabilities, so perform to these higher parameters". And so if your physical mods are of higher capabilities, then the 135i is golden and you have a never ending smile.
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09-16-2008, 11:11 AM	#10
Trapperj Second Lieutenant 100 Rep 206 Posts Drives: M2C Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: East Tennessee iTrader: (0)	Buy a tune first IMHO. Many of the other modds are smoke and mirrors without a tune. Some may help a little....some may hurt..Have you ridden or drove a 1 or 3 series with a tune? Find someone to take you for a ride
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09-16-2008, 02:58 PM	#13
holo777 Private First Class 1 Rep 162 Posts Drives: 135i Conv Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: NE TN iTrader: (0)	Does the ECU/DME impose torque limits? I seem to rember some talk about the computer cutting back on power if it thinks its making too much. Something like that might seriously limit non tune potential.
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09-16-2008, 06:52 PM	#15
Italteen3 Captain 60 Rep 765 Posts Drives: 135i JB Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Somewhere..... iTrader: (0)	I put the RR DP's in car and the power difference is VERY noticeable. The low-end torque was great!!! I say "was" because I put stock DPs back in for a little while :wink:. I MISS the extra power and sound already, after only a week back to stock. As to the ECU adapting the A/F ratio with an intake I can't say yes or no to any power gains as I have the stock intake. With the DPs for the first day or two there was minimal gain. Once the car "learned" of it's easier exhaling capabilities it friggin pulled! Must do mod for anyone looking for power IMO. Another thing to mention about the DP's from Riss is that they are a high-quality product. With all those mods IC, DPs, intake, full exhaust I don't see why 35-40rwhp isn't attainable.
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