330i ZHP vs 135

[instantexpert]

Hello all, I've reviewed this forum for awhile now and, after test drive, have essentially decided to place an order for a 135 with sport, premium, cold weather, MT, iPod, and iDrive (ick, but I need nav and don't want the wires).

The thing I'm beating myself up over is this. I have an already amazing car:
2005 330i ZHP, Dinan chip, intake, exhaust, and strut brace.

This car just left warranty and I'm a little nervous about BMW with no warranty. My previous 328 was miserable the day the warranty expired. So, I've prety much decided to go to a 135 but I have nagging doubts about whether I'm actually moving to a better vehicle or not and combine that with the whole hassle of selling the car. THe way IL works is that I have to sell the car, pay off the title, then the bank sends me the title and then the new owner can have it.

This is all complicated by the fact that I drove the G37 6MT and the IS350. In both cases, my 330i was a better drive according to my GF who likes speed and being tossed around in the seat and I concur with her. The 135 was an amazing drive but I'm just wondering, was it worth it.

So, after this rambling post, does anybody have any thoughts that may help alleviate my angsty first post here?

[hbiscuit]

my 328 was fantastic out of warranty :dunno:

[Advanced]

Originally Posted by instantexpert

Hello all, I've reviewed this forum for awhile now and, after test drive, have essentially decided to place an order for a 135 with sport, premium, cold weather, MT, iPod, and iDrive (ick, but I need nav and don't want the wires).

The thing I'm beating myself up over is this. I have an already amazing car:
2005 330i ZHP, Dinan chip, intake, exhaust, and strut brace.

This car just left warranty and I'm a little nervous about BMW with no warranty. My previous 328 was miserable the day the warranty expired. So, I've prety much decided to go to a 135 but I have nagging doubts about whether I'm actually moving to a better vehicle or not and combine that with the whole hassle of selling the car. THe way IL works is that I have to sell the car, pay off the title, then the bank sends me the title and then the new owner can have it.

This is all complicated by the fact that I drove the G37 6MT and the IS350. In both cases, my 330i was a better drive according to my GF who likes speed and being tossed around in the seat and I concur with her. The 135 was an amazing drive but I'm just wondering, was it worth it.

So, after this rambling post, does anybody have any thoughts that may help alleviate my angsty first post here?

well from personal experience, i've driven all the cars you've mentioned above . . and i can honestly tell you that i will definitely choose the 135 over the others.

why? well if you like the 330 so much that you choose it over the g37 and the is350 . . then you won't regret getting a 135.

think of the 1er as your 330 + a lot more!! especially if you like speed

[buckwheat986]

Originally Posted by instantexpert

Hello all, I've reviewed this forum for awhile now and, after test drive, have essentially decided to place an order for a 135 with sport, premium, cold weather, MT, iPod, and iDrive (ick, but I need nav and don't want the wires).

The thing I'm beating myself up over is this. I have an already amazing car:
2005 330i ZHP, Dinan chip, intake, exhaust, and strut brace.

This car just left warranty and I'm a little nervous about BMW with no warranty. My previous 328 was miserable the day the warranty expired. So, I've prety much decided to go to a 135 but I have nagging doubts about whether I'm actually moving to a better vehicle or not and combine that with the whole hassle of selling the car. THe way IL works is that I have to sell the car, pay off the title, then the bank sends me the title and then the new owner can have it.

This is all complicated by the fact that I drove the G37 6MT and the IS350. In both cases, my 330i was a better drive according to my GF who likes speed and being tossed around in the seat and I concur with her. The 135 was an amazing drive but I'm just wondering, was it worth it.

So, after this rambling post, does anybody have any thoughts that may help alleviate my angsty first post here?

While I think the 1 is the car for you, to me it would depend on

1) what you owe on the 330i and

2) how much of a hit you will take money wise to move to the 1.

I would ask myself "whats the rush"?

I don't think a warranty issue on a 3 year old bimmer is enough to make the move.

[LeifW]

I think the 330i with ZHP is an amazing car. In the tech section of the latest Roundel, they referred to the ZHP as the best non-M 3-series. If you've had good luck with the car, I'd keep it. Plus you have regular tires, a dipstick and you don't have to worry about the high pressure fuel pump. One thing to consider. You don't have head protection airbags for the rear passengers in the 330i. The 135 has head curtain airbags for front and rear passengers. I don't know if this is an issue for you. It's the reason I didn't buy a ZHP, because I'd have my daughter riding in the back and I want as much protection for her as possible.

Leif W.

[plien69]

Here's my honest assessment, coming out of an E36 with full suspension mods, and a stock E46 M3, into my current 135i.

E46 ZHP probably has better overall handling than the 135, even if the suspension geometries in the 135i are more advanced/developed. The 135i is underdamped for its engine. The runflats also take away a bit of steering feel. Still, the 135i feels more tossable/nimble than the E46 and somehow feels smaller as well.

The G37 has a decent motor (but no n54), and felt very big to me. The IS350 was just soft.

[OrientBlauZHP]

Originally Posted by plien69

Here's my honest assessment, coming out of an E36 with full suspension mods, and a stock E46 M3, into my current 135i.

E46 ZHP probably has better overall handling than the 135, even if the suspension geometries in the 135i are more advanced/developed. The 135i is underdamped for its engine. The runflats also take away a bit of steering feel. Still, the 135i feels more tossable/nimble than the E46 and somehow feels smaller as well.

The G37 has a decent motor (but no n54), and felt very big to me. The IS350 was just soft.

I would agree with this. I initially sold my 03 ZHP and 96 M3 to be able to put down a nice down payment on 1; I think it's one of the most fun cars I've ever driven, and I still want one. If you can sell your car to someone who understands how IL works and is willing to work with you I would say do it; E46 fanatics, bimmerfest, and bimmerforums would be where I would start. However, if you owe more on it than it's worth than I would keep it and put some more money into it. If you can hold onto it and not have any payments on it than you'll be better off in the end.

[bimmerfile]

Originally Posted by instantexpert

Hello all, I've reviewed this .................................................. ...................
.....................
..............................

This car just left warranty and I'm a little nervous about BMW with no warranty.............................
.....................................
...............................
In both cases, my 330i was a better drive according to my GF who likes speed and being tossed around in the seat and I concur with her. The 135 was an amazing drive but I'm just wondering, was it worth it.

So, after this rambling post, does anybody have any thoughts that may help alleviate my angsty first post here?

-----------------------------------
Sounds like you're pretty happy with the 330i.
Why not buy the BMW extended warranty and get a few more years out of that puppy?:iono:

[ptack]

Unless you've had problems with the car so far or have reasons to expect problems due to harsh driving, it sounds like you're just getting bored. If we can assume that the car is in good shape, then you should easily be able to get several more years out of it at a much lower cost than replacing it with a new 1, so economically it makes zero sense. If, on the other hand, the passion factor is that important to you, then evaluate it on that basis. Some (many?) people get new cars frequently not because they need to, but just because they want to. A 135i is certainly a temptress.

[instantexpert]

alpnwhite96
To be fair, I had a first month '99. To say it had problems off the lot would be an understatement. That's why I took the chance on the 2005. I'm still skittish, though.

Advanced
After driving them, the G37 felt like a complete dog. I had a Honda that felt better to drive. The IS 350 was good but it wasn't as good as my E46 so why bother. The 135 is an amazing car and had me hooked immediately. I guess, partially, I'm just BMW biased but I do think it was heads and shoulders above the rest.

buckwheat986
I think the rush is that I've driven an E46 for about 6 years now and it is a great car but I'm feeling the itch for an update. I will miss the MPG video game on the instrument cluster, though.

LeifW
I'm not worried about the air bags and the fact that this particular subset of the E46 is so great is what is making me waffle. If I wasn't itching for something new, and some of the toys of the new stuff I wouldn't be considering it at all.

plien69
You've hit on my number 1 concern. My E46 is a great car and I want to replace it with something that feels better to me in every respect. I like the fact that the 1 is smaller, faster and lighter. However, I read about the understeer and became concerned that the handling wouldn't be as good. The question comes down to whether I will actually notice a difference in handling or if it is in that last 1% of the limit that nobody ever notices unless going to the track.

1thirty5
I'm in an interesting place. I owe just enough that I could likely bargain the dealer into an even trade or I could net a couple K on the deal to a private buyer. I guess I'll find out whether the ZHP/Dinan translates into any kind of premium...

carnut
From a logical standpoint, you are 100% right. The warranty/maintenance issue is a concern but not so great that I *need* to sell the car. I'm just ready for a change but the change has to be better than I've got now.

ptack
You know me too well, apparently...

[Jack in Jax]

If you 'just have to have a new BMW', then what we can offer is moot, as the rational points being made can't/won't address the emotional itch.

OTOH if it's rational challenges to a perhaps impetuous itch that you are looking for, then I'm with Buckwheat: what's the rush? And as Leif points out, you already have a fantastic car - and it will depreciate little in the next year or two. Moreover, if an extended warranty isn't available to you now, you can still 'manage' the quality issues if/when they unfold. If things begin to happen, that's when you jump.

BTW you don't mention (did I miss it?) whether you have a MT or AT, nor how much maintenance attention your car has received. If it was an AT, I'd be more inclined to sell. If it's been pampered, I'd be more inclined to hold onto it. (As one example, are all the lube oils and coolant now freshly changed? The answer would be 'yes' for a pampered car; 'stuck to the recommended sked' would be the answer otherwise).

I didn't run the numbers via Edmunds et al., but your statement that you can trade straight across for a new 135i doesn't sound right to me. Note e.g. the asking price of the ZHP 330i being advertised here. If a 'straight trade' is in fact true, that would influence me to sell and move to a One with a fresh warranty. But I doubt you'll find a dealer who would agree to this.

Finally, I think it's still a wee bit early to buy a One if time isn't a major factor. As with every other single model of every manufacturer, foreign & domestic, that's been tested by Consumer Reports, first-year models always always have the most bugs - especially mechanical and electrical issues. We're already seeing evidence of this here and it's reasonable to assume the software updates, mechanical changes and other niggles that need to be addressed by BMW will happen incrementally - as their cost implications (e.g. 'manufacturing vs. warranty' costs) are evaluated. I'd give it a few more months before placing an order (or perhaps half a year if buying off a lot).

All just grist for the mill...

Jack

[instantexpert]

Jack,

I was unclear in my phrasing. When I meant even trade, what I meant was 0 net cash for my trade in. They'd give me what I owe. I see how that can be confusing now. The car hasn't been exceptionally babied. It's got the MT but I've maintained the regular maintenance schecule (due for an Inspection one in a couple K miles).

As far as waiting, that's a good chunk of why I waited until the end of the 2008 model year. My extremely early production '99 was a nightmare. It isn't the typical full year wait but they should have had time to resolve many issues.

Finally, you are right. I'm trying to hold onto my last shreds of rationality while simultaneously trying to jump for a 135. I agree the rational thing to do is hold the 330. It really is as amazing as the reviews of it say. But... but... but... I want 300HP and toys. It's hard to argue with my brain on that. I was hoping someone would have something definitive to kick me one way or the other.

[Jack in Jax]

IE:

"I'm trying to hold onto my last shreds of rationality while simultaneously trying to jump for a 135. I agree the rational thing to do is hold the 330. But... but... but..."

A psychologist will point out that, when we make any statement and follow it with a 'but', what we really think or feel follows the 'but' and what is secondary comes before it. I see 3 'buts' there, so there's your answer. <g>

Jack

[Tom K.]

Originally Posted by instantexpert

Jack,
As far as waiting, that's a good chunk of why I waited until the end of the 2008 model year. My extremely early production '99 was a nightmare. It isn't the typical full year wait but they should have had time to resolve many issues.

Sorry you had problems with your '99 E46. My '99 328i was a 1/99 build and has had only 2 issues after warranty - control arms at 57k and major A/C leaks at 67k. Other than that (and a replaced ambient temp sensor due to marauding chipmunks), the only expense in nearly 90k miles has been normal maintenance.
I also had a 2nd year Z3 (first year for the I6) and a first year Z4 and both proved to be very reliable.
As someone else suggested, you might want to keep the ZHP 330i a few more years (possibly with an extended warranty for your peace of mind) - unless like me, you are afflicted with the dreaded "have to have the newest & latest today" syndrome.
Tom

[adc]

Originally Posted by instantexpert

You've hit on my number 1 concern. My E46 is a great car and I want to replace it with something that feels better to me in every respect. I like the fact that the 1 is smaller, faster and lighter. However, I read about the understeer and became concerned that the handling wouldn't be as good. The question comes down to whether I will actually notice a difference in handling or if it is in that last 1% of the limit that nobody ever notices unless going to the track.

I did notice a difference. The only thing I added to the ZHP was sway bars - but it will take a full suspension to bring the 135i to the same level or better. This is particularly glaring to me because the 135 is much faster, so you more quickly reach the kind of speeds where the suspension gets left behind the motor.

So when going from my 335i (which is even worse in this respect) to a 135i next year, I'll factor in some sort of suspension upgrade (perhaps the Perf Catalog suspension) as well as tires and most likely, wheels.

If you can factor this in - and it should not be hard as the 135i is significantly cheaper than the ZHP was - I don't think the 135i will dissappoint.

[plien69]

Originally Posted by instantexpert

You've hit on my number 1 concern. My E46 is a great car and I want to replace it with something that feels better to me in every respect. I like the fact that the 1 is smaller, faster and lighter. However, I read about the understeer and became concerned that the handling wouldn't be as good. The question comes down to whether I will actually notice a difference in handling or if it is in that last 1% of the limit that nobody ever notices unless going to the track.

The understeer isn't something you'll notice unless you're at 8/10ths and above or if you just get into a corner completely wrong, in which case 99.9% of all cars will understeer. I believe that the source of the understeer is 70% undersized front tires, and 30% suspension geometry/setup.

I continue to believe that the main weakness of the 135's suspension is the fact that it is underdamped, which allows for excess vertical body motions during medium-to-high speed cornering over bumpy or wallowing pavement. I also think the RFTs give slightly less steering feel.

The strengths of the 135's handling are due to its short wheelbase combined with the E90/92-derived suspension geometries, which are an improvement on the E46. They give the car a sense of less mass, and make it very eager to change direction.

I've never driven an E46 ZHP so I can't comment directly, but those are my comparisons between an E46 M3 and the 135i.

Everyone has different handling priorities. As always, a personal test drive can answer many questions.

[IndyMike]

I understand the OP's dilemma. I have an '04 ZHP, and there are so many excellent attributes of it (both performance wise and subjectively) that it makes most competitor's pale in comparison.

Where to start?

- Imola red II is a stunning signature color.
- visually, the M-Tech II kit is a knockout......it's a perfect match for the E46 bodystyle.
- the 135M doublespoke wheels are gorgeous (albeit a pita to maintain).
- the alcantara steering wheel and short shift kit is great for spirited driving.
- the anthracite headliner is cool, and the shadowline trim sporty looking.
- the driver centric dash of the E46 is still the litmus test for layout (one big reason why I will never own an E9#).
- the window controls are where God intended them to be (at least for a manual tranny), on the center console.
- the hotted-up cams, the slightly negative tire camber and still OEM Bridgestone RE040's provide wonderful performance and road feel/feedback to the driver.
- the exhaust note sings an aria under load
- all of this and still 21/30 mpg fuel economy

It's just a subliminal, synergistic package and an unsurpassed daily driver that few can come close to.

But while one of the primary reasons why I really dig the 1 is that it's not a 3, and I'm comfortable that 1 > 3 (E90 and E92).........I'm just not convinced that 1 > 3 (E46 ZHP).

And yet the 1 is new, and fresh and despite it's warts (questionable overall appearance) and foibles (RFT's) still appeals to my automotive senses like nothing else on the market right now.

Unless the OP feels compelled to make a move now, the best thing may be to wait it out a bit.

At least that's what I've resolved to do.

It may sound strange and non-sensical, but sometimes in life the best moves that you make are the one's that you don't.

[instantexpert]

Holy thread revival batman!

Hey all, It's the OP here. I did go ahead and get the 135 and it was a good car but the hindsight of history proves that I should have stayed in the 330 ZHP instead. The kick in the pants acceleration was nice, as well as finally having built in navigation was great but the 330 was superior in every other way.

Honestly, if phone navigation had been the thing it is today, I 100% would have been better off with the 330!

I had a brief foray out of the BMW fold but I've been back fro 2.5 years and my new M3 arrives in 3ish weeks.

End result, there are some of you I should have listened to. But, you know... all decisions are emotional.

[Suprgnat]

Originally Posted by instantexpert

Holy thread revival batman!

Hey all, It's the OP here. I did go ahead and get the 135 and it was a good car but the hindsight of history proves that I should have stayed in the 330 ZHP instead. The kick in the pants acceleration was nice, as well as finally having built in navigation was great but the 330 was superior in every other way.

Honestly, if phone navigation had been the thing it is today, I 100% would have been better off with the 330!

I had a brief foray out of the BMW fold but I've been back fro 2.5 years and my new M3 arrives in 3ish weeks.

End result, there are some of you I should have listened to. But, you know... all decisions are emotional.

Excellent 8 year, 7 month, and 8 day update!

[nachob]

Originally Posted by instantexpert

Holy thread revival batman!

Hey all, It's the OP here. I did go ahead and get the 135 and it was a good car but the hindsight of history proves that I should have stayed in the 330 ZHP instead. The kick in the pants acceleration was nice, as well as finally having built in navigation was great but the 330 was superior in every other way.

Honestly, if phone navigation had been the thing it is today, I 100% would have been better off with the 330!

I had a brief foray out of the BMW fold but I've been back fro 2.5 years and my new M3 arrives in 3ish weeks.

End result, there are some of you I should have listened to. But, you know... all decisions are emotional.

Glad you checked in. Yes, we all make mistakes. I bought my dream 1M Euro Delivery and sold it when the economy got scary her in California. I had always wanted a ZHP so I went out and bought a used one. Still have it. It's my daily driver. The ZHP is really the peak of enthusiast M-sport cars of the last generation. Normally aspirated, no turbo lag. Great seats with Alcantara sides and great steering feedback. It sounds good, is comfortable, quick, good mileage, looks beautiful too. I get compliments all the time on it.

So after a couple of years I thought I would get an M2 and was first on the list. Then I saw that NAV was mandatory, so were power seats. They dropped the oil temp gauge and had fake sound in the cabin. I then drove an M235i and while fast, I realized the new generation didn't do it for me. I ditched my #1 allocation for M2 and bought another used 1M again. 18 months now and I thought having the 1M would make me not care about my ZHP. ... nah! The 1M is a truly special car in BMWs history, but when I jump in the ZHP, the only thing I really miss is the diaper-soiling-twitchy accelaration of the 1M. The old 13 year old ZHP still holds its own! The feedback from the steering is superb. The central window controls, ZHP steering wheel, linear braking, great firm ride and timeless styling still make it one of the hidden gems in BMWs lineup. I drive my 1M on weekends but when I drive my ZHP, I don't feel like I'm missing that much!

Maybe you can be like me and pick up a ZHP for daily use. The funny thing is my son turns 15 soon and my wife drives an nice red 08 GTI. I asked him to wash it and told him that might be his one day and he said, thanks dad, but I really love the ZHP! Could I have that one instead? : )

Congrats on your M3!

[Mr Rooty Von Tooty]

This is an old game auto mfgs like to play. They dress up a current model with mostly cosmetic crap, can you say cheap, for an outrageous price. A good example is the 135i vs the 135is. Oddly the added price is $4K for both the 135is and the 330i ZHP.

For those of you who are so worried about resale value, these packages are practically worthless unless you can find someone who appreciates the difference. The dealer certainly won't. Another problem is these cars usually have to be ordered, since they aren't commonly found in the dealer's inventory.

There is even a current example of this kind of marketing. Consider the M240i Vs the M2. In a very real sense, the M2 is really no more than a fancied up M240i. For those who want a more comfortable and subdued ride, the latter would be a better choice while those who want to showboat their extravagance, the M2! You might notice the difference in price isn't all that much! LOL

[nachob]

Originally Posted by Mr Rooty Von Tooty

This is an old game auto mfgs like to play. They dress up a current model with mostly cosmetic crap, can you say cheap, for an outrageous price. A good example is the 135i vs the 135is. Oddly the added price is $4K for both the 135is and the 330i ZHP.

For those of you who are so worried about resale value, these packages are practically worthless unless you can find someone who appreciates the difference. The dealer certainly won't. Another problem is these cars usually have to be ordered, since they aren't commonly found in the dealer's inventory.

There is even a current example of this kind of marketing. Consider the M240i Vs the M2. In a very real sense, the M2 is really no more than a fancied up M240i. For those who want a more comfortable and subdued ride, the latter would be a better choice while those who want to showboat their extravagance, the M2! You might notice the difference in price isn't all that much! LOL

The ZHP was not just cosmetic crap.

The ZHP came with a bespoke aerodynamic kit with extra brake cooling.

It came with new cams and bespoke exhaust system that made more horsepower, raised the redline and the top speed.

It came with a shorter final drive ratio that made it even quicker.

It was only offered in a MANual in 2003 when it first came out and it was the only non ///M car with a 6 speed.

It came with a bespoke steering rack and bespoke control arms and suspension tuning. When you look at the suspension parts, there is a regular 330, Sport Suspension and M-Sport for the ZHP.

The base interior was cloth with alcantara for grippier seats. It was BMWs apology to fans with kids for not making a 4 door ///M car.