Who has actually tracked CCB rotors?

[FrankMstein]

Who has tracked them and taken them to the weight limit and beyond, got them hot?!? What happened to them?

Cars like the P GT3RS has CCB and people track them...

I understand why BW and Turner say they are not made for the track BUT they also want to sell you steel and pads...

I understand exactly what happens to the rotors and pads when they get hot. I just want to hear from someone who had taken them to the limit, first hand.

[NYG]

When they get hot (and they get really hot) it starts to oxidize. You'll get these craters all over the surface starting to form in as little as 2 track days. Especially worse with the weak stock brake cooling on the F8x.

You essentially ruin the rotors in a few track days and their replacement cost is ridiculous.

I don't think CCB feels as good as iron either.

[SYT_Shadow]

You 'can' track them.

The P GT3 and GT3 RS have optional CCBs, which no one who tracks uses. If you see them mounted then for sure the driver is not fast. Most of the time they are not fast anyway, but are still smart enough to not use their CCBs and they do an iron conversion kit from Girodisc and call it a day.

They wear faster than a set of BBK rotors if you get them really hot. If you are just putting around then the CCBs never get hot enough to oxidize and they work just fine.

Using a track pad formulated for a CCB helps them last longer, the Pagid RSC pads for example. There's a nice video from BimmerWorld comparing the CCBs to the CCB+RSC to a Girodisc conversion


Edit: I have tracked CCBs pretty extensively, or at least as extensively as they can be tracked until they were burnt out and we swapped to M2C rotors. Driven hard, they last less than a normal set of BBK rotors. What a waste! Incredibly expensive mistake.
On GTS1 and GTS2, the CCBs went straight off both cars and will go onto our E90 and E92 street cars, where they will serve the true purpose of CCBs: looking pretty behind big wheels.

[SYT_Shadow]

If your car has CCBs you can skip the BBK and just get a Girodisc conversion and you're in pretty good hands.

We've put down some good times with our GTS1 with Girodiscs, the calipers hold up well.

[G35POPPEDMYCHERRY]

lol wtf, whats the point of the CCB if not for the track?

[Montaver]

My GT4 has PCCB's, I run Girodiscs because of the aforementioned cost to track. If they weren't so extortionate, I would 100pc run them all the time. The reduced unsprung weight has a magical effect on suspension, the feel is incredible. The suspension responds way quicker and more delicately. For a street car they are a no brainer as you will never wear them out and the performance is great.

If you do have ceramics and run them on track, don't let the pads get below 50pc life as this will help extend the longevity and reduce heat build up on the discs. Most CC discs are made by Brembo so it's all the same stuff.

[FrankMstein]

Yep, if the pad gets past 50% it is unable to absorb and dissipate the heat as well and becomes overheated and will wear exponentially. Similarly, but not the same, as conventional pads. I will be getting Ti or SS shims ASA I can get the pads traced/drawn.

With all the CCB sets here from conversions I was tossing around the option of just cycling through used sets as that is possibly more cost effective depending on the price of the used sets. However you CAN get the Girodisks without the hat and then the Giros are the cheaper option. CC pads are the similar price as Pagid RSL29's.

For the record PFC makes the CCB rear shape in their 08 compound and waiting on tooling for the front...some day. STILL waiting on the steel conversion disks that have been in the works for 3-4 years FFS.

[SilverLakeM3]

I appreciate the information here. Was not aware of replacing the pads when less than 50%. Will have to check mine out. I know the rotor wear is measured by weight and a visual inspection but for the pads, is it a width measurement or weight?

[Montaver]

Originally Posted by veloriderkm

I appreciate the information here. Was not aware of replacing the pads when less than 50%. Will have to check mine out. I know the rotor wear is measured by weight and a visual inspection but for the pads, is it a width measurement or weight?

The most accurate way to measure CCB's is this tool by Proceq, some Porsche dealers have them not sure about BMW. The tool is expensive I think, about $7k. It compares the number stamped on the rotor hat to gauge carbon burn off.

https://www.screeningeagle.com/en/products/carboteq

Weighing as it not that accurate AFAIK, but could be wrong.

Pads are just like any pad, you can inspect it visually for remaining thickness.

[11LMBiSTT]

https://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1239580

Originally Posted by jritt@essex

I concur that the wear you're seeing is the discs oxidizing, and it is most likely due to the track use. We see this constantly on Corvette (C7 Z06), Camaro, Porsche (991 GT3), Ferrari 458, etc. We've had customers destroy their CCM/CCB discs in as little as 8-10 days on the track. About ten years ago, I was able to destroy a set of CCM discs on my Z06 in a single afternoon at Buttonwillow. Despite what the OEM vehicle manufacturers claim, carbon ceramic discs are currently NOT the best choice for track use. When carbon ceramic discs get too hot, they oxidize. Period, end of story. People argue with us until they're blue in the face, but we see it over and over again.


Below is some info from our website:

In the past few years, Carbon Ceramic brake discs have become increasingly popular on high-end sports cars as either standard equipment or as a factory installed option. Although expensive, they're a great choice for a car that is used exclusively on the street. They save a large amount of unsprung weight, they don't generate much brake dust, have low NVH, and they may even last longer than the rest of the car! For the avid track enthusiast however, they're typically not the best choice.

On the racetrack however, repetitive stops from high speeds generate considerably higher brake disc temperatures vs. what could ever be legally or sanely achieved on the street. Various manufacturers producing the current crop of carbon ceramic discs claim to match iron disc durability on the track, but our experience tells us otherwise. While they may be less resistant to warping or deformation at repeated elevated temperatures, the biggest problem with carbon ceramic discs is that they tend to oxidize at track temperatures, showing rough surface eruptions on the disc face. In some cases the oxidation is terminal (chopped fiber discs), and the discs must be scrapped once it occurs. In other cases (continuous fiber discs), the discs can be resurfaced, but only a limited number of times and at a high cost. Most carbon ceramic discs are measured in terms of minimum mass, rather than the traditional minimum thickness used to measure iron discs. Once the minimum mass is reached, the carbon ceramic disc is trash.

Below is an oxidized carbon ceramic disc from a C7 Z06. The pictured damage was sustained across roughly 8-10 track days. Notice the dark spots in which the surface is flaking off / eroding. When your disc looks like this, it has become a $2,000 paperweight!


Other Potential Pitfalls with Carbon Ceramic Discs

Low airflow- If you look at a specific car model that offers both iron and carbon ceramic discs as an option, the carbon ceramic discs will almost always be considerably larger in overall dimension, with a specific emphasis on a tall radial depth (distance from outer disc edge to inner disc edge). Whereas an iron disc uses a web of directional internal vanes to speed airflow through the disc, most carbon ceramic discs rely on their large surface area to radiate heat into the air surrounding the disc. Hence, the tall radial depth.

Expensive and limited range of compatible brake pads- There aren't many brake pad options with carbon ceramic discs. The pads must be compatible with the specific disc material being used, and if they aren't, they can destroy the discs in a hurry. Since brake pads are a very personal choice to most track junkies, carbon ceramic discs don't provide many options for the driver to chase a desired feel. Also as noted above, carbon ceramic discs tend to be very tall radially, which means very large brake pads are required. In the world of brake pads, price is usually directly proportional to size: Bigger = more expensive.

Poor feel- Experienced drivers will tell you that cast iron discs provide superior pedal feel due to less compress-ability. Some drivers find that carbon ceramic discs feel soft or abrasive at lower temperatures, but feel like stone with little modulation once they heat up. Feel and the resulting confidence is rather important when hurtling towards a guardrail at 150mph!

High replacement disc cost- Carbon ceramic replacement discs can be hideously expensive. If you do wear out or damage a disc, it can cost thousands of dollars to replace each one. When running carbon ceramic discs hard on a racetrack, the odds of having to replace one or more of them increases exponentially vs. if you only drive your car on the street.

Damage-prone- Many manufactures suggest covering their carbon ceramic discs when handling them, so they are not chipped or fractured. One knock when changing a wheel can destroy a disc. Additionally, some chemical wheel cleaners or abrasives used in car detailing can damage carbon ceramic discs.

Splinters- Carbon ceramic discs shouldn't be handled with bare hands, as they can leave carbon splinters in the skin.

Greater sensitivity to burnishing/bedding-in- Most manufacturers have an explicit, and sometimes intricate, set of instructions for bedding-in their carbon ceramic discs. Iron discs can typically be prepared via a simple series of stops from 60-80 mph with the brake pad of choice.

Carbon Ceramic is NOT Carbon/Carbon

At this stage you may be saying to yourself, "But I saw that the XYZ professional race cars were running carbon brakes at the track." The carbon brakes currently being used in professional racing are carbon/carbon (abbreviated C/C), which is actually a different material vs. the carbon ceramic discs used on road cars. The carbon ceramic brake discs on road cars are a Carbon Ceramic Matrix (CCM). In recent times many professional racing series (F1, ALMS, IRL, etc.) have switched to carbon/carbon brake discs in an effort to reduce weight. Carbon/Carbon is an outstanding lightweight material for racing, but requires heat before it starts to generate usable friction. As such, they're completely ill-suited to a typical morning commute in a road car!

When we post the above information, CCM/CCB owners inevitably come out of the woodwork defending the technology. They've invested a large sum of money, so they want to be correct, which is understandable. They tell us we don't know what we're talking about, that BMW, Porsche, or Chevy would never offer CCB's on their halos car if it wasn't the best option for track use, etc. However, the next week we always see another owner post pics of his destroyed discs after he tracks his car repeatedly.

Again, CCM/CCB discs are a wonderful option for road use. When they are operated at high temperatures however, they can and will oxidize. Iron discs are still the best choice for heavy track use. They offer an array of benefits:

Increased airflow- A quality iron racing disc with a high vane count promotes airflow, heat evacuation, and rapid cooling. They don't rely on a large surface area to cool via radiation. The iron discs will move more air than a carbon ceramic disc, and as a result they won't heat your brake pads, caliper pistons, and brake fluid up as quickly. You'll be able to run longer sessions without brake fade, and you'll enjoy the confidence that comes along with them. They'll also make any brake ducts that you have on the car more effective and useful.

Huge range of compatible brake pad compounds- Iron discs will open up a much greater range of available brake pads. You'll be able to achieve a different feel, and tailor your brake setup depending on your needs and environment, whether that is running an AutoX or the most demanding racetrack in your area. You'll also likely be paying less per brake pad set than you were previously, and your pads will last longer.

Inexpensive spare discs- You'll no longer have to spend thousands of dollars when it's time to replace your discs. Iron disc rings typically only cost $300-500 each, so you won't have to stress about anything happening to them. They're inexpensive enough that you can always keep a spare set on hand, so you won't have to worry about any brake-related downtime when you're out at the track.

Durability- Iron discs can take a beating. You can stash your spares in your race trailer, and you won't have to worry about handling them, covering them, dinging them, or chipping them when changing your wheels. Most of all, they don't oxidize. They will eventually crack, but typically last far longer than a carbon ceramic under heavy track use.



Keep in mind that there are huge number of variables when considering if CCB/CCM discs will work on a given car. What works for one person may not work for another. Some factors that impact the amount of heat being poured into the brake system:
Horsepower
Curb weight
Tire size and compound
Track layout
Driver experience
Length of session
Aero
Brake ducts
etc.

A relatively novice driver at Willow Springs may get 25 track days out of his CCB discs on his unmodified M4 on OEM tires. On the other hand, a gutted M4 with a larger turbo, on slicks, driven by a pro at Road America might only get 6 days before they oxidize. Again, there a huge number of variables, and it's more or less impossible to make a blanket statement about how long a set of CCB's should last.


Our recommendation remains...if you plan to track your car, the best iron racing brake systems will offer superior performance and huge cost savings vs. a CCB system. Our Essex Designed AP Racing Radi-CAL Competition BBK is the perfect example. It even gives you some of the weight savings that the CCB's offer, but spare costs are a fraction of the CCB setup. They're a great investment, because when you pull them off the car and sell them used, you can still recoup 60+% of the purchase price. When you burn up a set of OEM CCB discs, they are pretty much worthless on the used market.

If you do have the CCB system with gold calipers, and you want to track your car consistently, our advice is to shelve the OEM CCB brake system until you sell your car on the used market. Replace them with an iron system designed explicitly for track use. Due to their extremely high replacement cost, the CCB discs will be one of the very first points on the car that any serious buyer considering your car is going to examine. If you don't believe us, look at any 'for sale' ad for a high-end Porsche 911 with CCB's. The first question potential buyers ask is the condition of the discs. If the discs show wear/oxidation, it will have a severe negative impact on your selling price. Nobody wants to buy a used car and then have to immediately shell out $10k for new brake discs.

Carbon ceramic brake technology has evolved quite a bit over the past decade, and continues to march forward. That said, it still can't quite match the performance and cost of a proper iron racing system for track use.

To the OP...if you decide to stick with the CCB's and plan to keep tracking your car, get some good brake ducts to try and bring the operating temps down on the discs. Short of that and the frequent pad changes, there's not a whole lot you can do to slow their oxidation. What you will see next on your discs is that other areas of the disc face will start to look like the wear indicator windows. Eventually the disc will start to look like the pic I posted above.

Hopefully this was helpful, and let us know if we can help you stop throwing money at the CCB's. Thanks.

[SilverLakeM3]

Would it be reasonable to replace just the front discs and pads for trackdays and leaving the rears alone?

I'm thinking if this works then it's a cost effective option for trackdays.

[11LMBiSTT]

Originally Posted by veloriderkm

Would it be reasonable to replace just the front discs and pads for trackdays and leaving the rears alone?

I'm thinking if this works then it's a cost effective option for trackdays.

CCBs and Tracking will never be cost effective, period. Unless of course, you have F U money.

CCBs are best for street/daily/spirited driving duties.

[FrankMstein]

Originally Posted by Montaver

The most accurate way to measure CCB's is this tool by Proceq, some Porsche dealers have them not sure about BMW. The tool is expensive I think, about $7k. It compares the number stamped on the rotor hat to gauge carbon burn off.

https://www.screeningeagle.com/en/products/carboteq

Weighing as it not that accurate AFAIK, but could be wrong.

Pads are just like any pad, you can inspect it visually for remaining thickness.

My local dealer has a Proceq but they want to charge you an hours worth of time to gage them...to pay for it.

[SilverLakeM3]

Originally Posted by 11LMBiSTT

CCBs and Tracking will never be cost effective, period. Unless of course, you have F U money.

I meant putting on a steel disc and different pad for the front to be used on trackdays and the CCBs back on for the street.

Shame that FCP doesn't sell carbon ceramics.

[FrankMstein]

Originally Posted by veloriderkm

Would it be reasonable to replace just the front discs and pads for trackdays and leaving the rears alone?

I'm thinking if this works then it's a cost effective option for trackdays.

I had considered that seeing as how a friend tracked his and the rears never not that hot. He ran with traction control off of course.

[11LMBiSTT]

Originally Posted by veloriderkm

I meant putting on a steel disc and different pad for the front to be used on trackdays and the CCBs back on for the street.

Shame that FCP doesn't sell carbon ceramics.

FCP would go out of business if they had CCB discs. Lol. I'm sure they don't have it for a reason.

Yes, the best way is to just pick up a complete set of Girodiscs and pads, if tracking is a must. Swap between the CCB and Iron and that is really the best and only way. Unless you keep the Girodiscs on permanently and just swap out track and street pads. That's what I'm doing... I have CCB Calipers and Girodiscs paired with a Private Label Street/Track Pads and Spiegler Lines and good fluid. I don't ever get around to getting to the track but this setup works well for my needs. I get the Gold CCB bling behind my wheels and additional/superior stopping power and cooling. Only thing I'm missing out on is the CCB Discs weight savings, but I think my FI-Rs make up for it. Good compromise.

Shameless plug... I have 2 complete sets of Girodiscs for sale if anyone is interested. One set is brand new in box and the other set was lightly used.

[11LMBiSTT]

Originally Posted by FrankMstein

I had considered that seeing as how a friend tracked his and the rears never not that hot. He ran with traction control off of course.

With traction control completely off, it should be okay. But, why not just run Girodiscs on all 4 corners? That's what I would do and recommend.

Girodiscs are the way to go, if you want OEM 6/4pot track capable calipers. Not to say the 4/2pot are not track capable. With good pads, fluid and lines... I've heard they get the job done as well. Otherwise, just go AP/Essex.

[FrankMstein]

Originally Posted by 11LMBiSTT

With traction control completely off, it should be okay. But, why not just run Girodiscs on all 4 corners? That's what I would do and recommend.

Girodiscs are the way to go, if you want OEM 6/4pot track capable calipers. Not to say the 4/2pot are not track capable. With good pads, fluid and lines... I've heard they get the job done as well. Otherwise, just go AP/Essex.

Cost at this point.

[11LMBiSTT]

Originally Posted by FrankMstein

Cost at this point.

About 2.7k for complete new set of Girodiscs.

About 2k for my lightly used set.

No other plug and play options for the CCB Calipers, afaik.

[SilverLakeM3]

Originally Posted by 11LMBiSTT

About 2.7k for complete new set of Girodiscs.

About 2k for my lightly used set.

No other plug and play options for the CCB Calipers, afaik.

Not saying that what you have is a bad deal but I'm thinking about $1k for OE M2C rotors and then the cost of pads which can be purchased from FCP euro.

[FrankMstein]

Originally Posted by veloriderkm

Not saying that what you have is a bad deal but I'm thinking about $1k for OE M2C rotors and then the cost of pads which can be purchased from FCP euro.

Oe are cast? holes and more easily crack due to it. His are Girodisk/slotted.

[11LMBiSTT]

Originally Posted by veloriderkm

Not saying that what you have is a bad deal but I'm thinking about $1k for OE M2C rotors and then the cost of pads which can be purchased from FCP euro.

Yeah, that's an option as well, if cost is an issue. Just remember shipping rotors back and forth isn't easy or cheap. Also, OEM don't last as long on the track and don't have the cooling,mass and longevity that the Girodiscs do. Regardless of, if someone buys mine or not, Girodiscs are the way to go! And in the long run you only have to buy the rings.

Ask any true track enthusiasts, especially the P car drivers what they use to track their cars and save the costly CCBs.

Originally Posted by FrankMstein

Oe are cast? holes and more easily crack due to it. His are Girodisk/slotted.

Yasssss!