First HPDE weekend journey - NJMP Lightning - BMW CCA 8/14-8/15

[dawei213]

I read this on a Corvette forum while I was researching HPDE:
“One autocross, I had to try HPDE. One HPDE and I’m an addict... and this addiction makes heroin and crack look cheap once you get the speed addiction to keep going faster and faster on a Road Course. " <----- So true!!!

I went to my first HPDE event last weekend (8/14-815) at NJMP Lightning with the DelVal BMW CCA group. I’m very fortunate to have run with the group as I got to meet so many different people from different backgrounds, personality and characteristics but share one common thing: the love of motorsports. I actually went with a buddy of mine to the event but ended up spending a lot of time with others talking about the events and being gearheads, all things automotive.

I signed up to this event back in early July so I had time to prepare for this event. As part of my preparation process, I was consuming every video, article, and forums that I could read regarding HPDE. Naturally, I spend a lot of time just reading through this subforum and have read pretty much every thread within this subforum dating back to 2018. For anyone reading this and looking to get into HPDE, just read and digest everything that’s been posted in this subforum and other forums. They contain a wealth of knowledge, inputs and varying amounts of opinions. I spend weeks preparing for this event, from researching whether OE brakes would work or if I should get racing pads and if so which one to suspension setup (camber plates). I even looked into data loggers, camera setup and what I should be bringing to track days (extra set of pads, brake fluids, tools, etc). Alas, I keep my car, 2018 F80 M3 Comp 6MT, as stock as possible….for now. The only changes I made for the two days event were Motul 600 brake fluid, PFC08 brake pads and 18x10F 18x11R Nitto NT01 (thanks @ , they worked great!). For day 1, my first two sessions were with TC on, my last two sessions were with TC off but MDM on. Then for Day 2, I had TC all day because I had two newly graduated instructors that insisted I keep TC on.

TLDR: Never tracked? Just do it! Get fluid change, maybe brake pads and tires if possible. Get instructors, meet people, talk to people. Get track insurance. Go out and have a great time!

Nitto NT01 sweetness:

[dawei213]

BMW CCA Instructional Experience
Day 1
My first instructor was a seasoned driver with many years of instruction experience. Going on the track for the very first time, I will have to say the first lap was slightly intimidating and very exciting. It was intimidating in the sense that I don’t know my car’s driving dynamics with the new pads, tires and fluid and also not knowing the track layout very well at all. However, the instructor was able to quickly grasp the capability of my vehicles and my driving ability to give me pointed advice on braking, throttle and steering controls.

Towards the end of the first session, I felt I could keep pushing the car harder and faster and the car was still controllable. One immediate feedback from my instructor was that my braking and throttling application was too sudden and abrupt. This is due to 2 factors, new PFC08 pads and a few years of auto crossing, I never had formal autoX instructions and I typically just stomp on the brakes if going into a tight turn or hard on the throttle coming out of said tight turn. Finding the apex and the lines came more naturally to me but the braking/throttle application was something I had to work on both days. Thankfully my instructors was patient and worked well with me in that area and other areas as well. By the end of the day, I was doing offline passing, some throttle steering and definitely one of the faster drivers within my group.

Here’s a video of the 4th session of the 1st day. Fastest recorded lap at Lap 10 - 1:21:5 (GoPro, TrackAddict):

Day 2
I was assigned to a newly graduated instructor. While I felt like I made a good deal of progress with the day 1 instructor, the new instructor had me dial back my speed to work on my braking and throttle control, which was fine because that’s what I said I needed to work on. BUT after my 1st session, I was handed off another newly graduated instructor for the remainder of the day. Although I had spoken to this 2nd new instructor about my prior experience and what the 1st and 2nd instructors had gone through, he had me dial it WAY back and start fresh with him. So during my 2nd session, he was instructing me to go much slower after I started out at an ok pace for my first few laps. He was giving pointers about the lines and tracking out, however half the time he’s telling me to slow down, kept on asking me how I felt and that I needed to relax while I’m driving and not get so stressed (which I never said I was). It was his interaction with me during that second session that was a distraction.

For the 3rd session, I asked him if he would like to take my car out to show me some of what he was explaining, which he agreed to. However what I needed to know and understand is how much pressure I should be applying for braking and throttle. Unfortunately when he took my car out, he went no faster than I normally would on a normal public road. I didn’t learn much while he was at the wheel. We did swap after a few laps, however the rest of the 3rd session was similar to the 2nd session. Needless to say, it was a frustrating 2nd and 3rd session. After the 3rd session, I did convey my frustration with how it’s been going but mostly because of how our interaction has been, which was mostly a “hey you need to stop and calm down and do what I tell you to do”. That’s when I suggest for session 4 he should see what I am capable of for a few laps and then provide any feedback. This arrangement worked out better. He mentioned that I’m already doing much better than session 2 & 3 and was only providing feedback on my braking and throttle control, which had improved because of a ride along I had in a 911 GT3 just prior to session 4 (See take away #3 in next post). Towards the end of the session, I was already back up to the same speed/pace as the end of day 1, but with much better braking/throttle control. Both the instructor and I were satisfied with how things went in the last session.

[dawei213]

A few take away from that weekend...

1. Prepping for the first day - From all the information I’ve digested, I wanted to make my first day experience to be the best and as prepared as I can. And reading different sites and different threads posted by forum members about bringing spare sets of brake pads, brake fluid, tools/etc, I would say those advice are more applicable to more intermediate / advanced drivers than the first timer and/or novice driver. For the first time drivers or someone not as advanced, if your fluids have recently been changed and your pads have a good amount of meat left ( > 50%), chances are you won’t be needing any of the tools that require you to . Of all the things that I brought with me, I only ended up using tools needed to change out my tires, air compressor, tire pressure gauge, notepad and a pen. A lot of the beginner/novice drivers were driving on A/S tires with stock pads and they managed to get through the 2 day event with what they had and almost no tools. So if it’s your first time, and assuming your tires and pads have a good amount left, maybe just bring the basics like air compressor, tire pressure gauge and torque wrench if you feel like you need to torque after a few sessions.

2. Track Insurance - I felt safe and comfortable with my own driving and vehicle’s abilities and driving within limits. However, it was the other vehicles which I had no control over that concerned me. During most of the weekend, I was passing a good percentage of cars, lapping them a few times. I didn’t think I would even get to pass that much. Because of all the passing and being in close proximity to other vehicles, I’m glad to have purchased track insurance. It really puts me at ease and allows me to just focus on the driving and not need to worry about what ifs.

3. Get ride alongs - One thing I knew I had to work on was brake and throttle pressure. Coming from years of auto crossing, I’m used to mashing the brake and throttle pedals because I never had an instructor and never learned proper braking/throttle pressure. The one common theme that all 3 instructors had me work on was finessing and applying the right amount of pressure for brake and throttle. All 3 had different ways of trying to convey that information, from imagining an orange underneath my brake pedal to applying what’s a smooth application of pressure vs hard/intense pressure while squeezing my arm and wrist. I get the concept, however it was hard for me to translate to how the car should feel when trying that technique. For me, I was still pressing way too hard too quickly or not enough/too slowly. It wasn’t until I had a ride along with other instructors in a M4 GTS and a Porsche 911 GT3 (both AWESOME rides btw), did I really understand how it should feel and how the car would react. At that moment, that’s when everything the instructors had mentioned really clicked for me. YMMV but it definitely worked for me.

4. Gas up when you’re at below half tank - The F80 gas tank showing how much is left is NOT accurate, at least that’s what I’ve observed. Before I headed into NJMP, I topped off my tank. Going through the first two sessions, the gas gauge showed about 55% left. Going through the 3rd session, It showed I had roughly 40% left. With about that much left, I thought I’d be ok. However with about 10 minutes left in my 4th and last session, I was down to my last grid with the fuel reserve light lighting up. That completely broke my concentration and definitely made it harder to focus as I was concerned about running out of fuel or potentially seeing fuel starvation (guess I wasn’t going hard enough for that to happen). I deliberately went a little bit slower So as a lesson learned, for day 2, I plan to gas up prior to my 4th session.

5. Gas up when you’ve done half your sessions - So my lesson from day 1 was to gas up prior to my 4th session. I was planning to do that for day 2, until I wasn’t able to. Right after my 2nd session, I went to talk to a few other individuals and asked one of the other instructor if he’s not taking his student, would he mind taking me during his session on the track (in 911 GT3). His session occurs immediately after my 3rd session so I had to quickly pit, park and hop into his car. Well, it just so happens the time between my 3rd and 4th session was only 45 minutes apart and after my ride-along, I immediately tagged up with my instructor to go over session 3. This led me to completely forgetting to fill up on gas before session 4 until I was 10 minutes in and the fuel reserve light popped up again. This time I knew I wouldn’t make it through the entire session so I had to pull out and didn’t have enough time to get back in. So yeah, new lesson, just gas up anytime after you’re done half way through the day and get it done!

6. Talk to others while at the event - I went with a buddy of mine to the event. Initially, because of the amount of downtime between sessions, I thought it may get boring if I wasn’t going with someone else that I knew so I could chat and just chill. However a lot of people there were just still chilled and happy to talk to you if you just approached them.

7. Racing pads and 100TW tires, they are indeed something else - I’ve had Porterfield R4-S (high perf street/autoX) and RT615s on my old Audi B8 S4 so I had some experiences with good stopping power and grip but having the PFC08 and NT01 was on a whole new level. Prior to adding these to my M3, I was completely stock for the past 3 years. But having these, I had to adjust and understand what they can / can’t do and that took me almost two sessions and inputs from my instructors on how to best utilize the braking power and grip of the tires.

[dawei213]

Questions!!!

1. I’ve read that we should turn off TC and MDM and learn to drive the car without it. However, for my first two sessions, I ran with TC on. With my setup, the instructor mentioned he didn’t see or felt TC kicked in. I’m not familiar with how it feels if TC kicks in. For the last two sessions of day 1, I had TC off but MDM on. Even then, I felt no difference. My question is, could TC not be engaging because I’m not driving hard enough on the NT01s? Honestly, I’m not sure what it means if TC wasn’t getting engaged.

2. For my brake pads, I measured only the remaining compound without the backing plate, which measured 13.5mm for both fronts and 11.5mm for both rears. How much was taken off from new? What’s the depth for new PFC08s?

3. The long fast straight away all the way down to turn 1, my braking engaged ABS a few times. Should I avoid engaging ABS? Should I be braking a bit earlier and not as hard?

4. How’s the wear on my tires? I rotated them left to right before the start of day 2. This was taken after the weekend.
Fronts:


Rears:

[Montaver]

Congrats on your first track day! Lightning is a really fun track with lots to learn, quite underrated in my opinion.

1. If you aren't noticing it, its probably because you are under the threshold for intervention. NT01's are a very grippy tire to be running for your first event. You might be better off running something a bit less grippy at first with lower limits so you get a better feel for the car. Then you can progress to running everything off.

3. Engaging ABS a few times is totally normal, particularly on a new setup. Once you know where the threshold is you can dial back your braking pressure slightly to be just on the edge before it engages for maximum grip. The ABS on the f8x is very good and you are probably not losing a whole lot by engaging it, but its not tuned for an R compound tire like an NT-01. Over a session the braking pressure required may change a bit as your brakes/tires heat up also.

[NYG]

Originally Posted by dawei213

Questions!!!

1. I’ve read that we should turn off TC and MDM and learn to drive the car without it. However, for my first two sessions, I ran with TC on. With my setup, the instructor mentioned he didn’t see or felt TC kicked in. I’m not familiar with how it feels if TC kicks in. For the last two sessions of day 1, I had TC off but MDM on. Even then, I felt no difference. My question is, could TC not be engaging because I’m not driving hard enough on the NT01s? Honestly, I’m not sure what it means if TC wasn’t getting engaged.

2. For my brake pads, I measured only the remaining compound without the backing plate, which measured 13.5mm for both fronts and 11.5mm for both rears. How much was taken off from new? What’s the depth for new PFC08s?

3. The long fast straight away all the way down to turn 1, my braking engaged ABS a few times. Should I avoid engaging ABS? Should I be braking a bit earlier and not as hard?

4. How’s the wear on my tires? I rotated them left to right before the start of day 2. This was taken after the weekend.

Thanks for sharing - like Montaver said, Lightning is underrated and one of my favorite NE tracks. Glad we've got another track junkie in the world.

1. Given that you're just starting, TC on isn't such a terrible thing. The initial hump is disconnecting regular road driving habits from track driving. This doesn't take too long and once you know how much more speed you can carry in a corner and just how hard you can brake without setting off abs, then you can start turning nannies off more.

It's less the traction control and more the stability control which you'll only notice once you start getting the car up to it's limit and realizing how much faster it is. Stability control compares your steering angle sensors to wheel speeds and bunch of other sensors to make sure the car is going in the direction that you're asking it to. So it will start working when it senses things like understeer and oversteer. Two things you will encounter often as you become a better driver.

In a rear wheel drive car, the fastest lap will require you to rotate the car right at the edge of the car's and tire's limit. Stability and traction control are huge no-nos for this. BMW describes MDM as a system which allows the car to do a little bit of this without letting it get out of hand but this is far from the truth.

MDM cuts power severely and overworks your brakes. I never did a real test to compare just how much it takes away but on the same weekend that I ran 2:08~ at Watkins Glen, I had a session where I accidentally didn't hold the button for a few seconds and ran with MDM. The lap times, to be fair with traffic, were in the 2:12s and the car drove like shit.

2. No clue but PFCs last a long time. 1/4" of the pad lasts forever. Ferodos on the other hand will disintegrate after a weekend.

3. This could be for a few reasons. NT01s on EC7s slip around the wheel.... A LOT. Mark it next time just to see. Another reason is the application of brake pressure. You don't want to stomp on the pedal then quickly release. The initial application needs to be smooth but fast and the release needs to be slower to balance the car into the corner. You don't want to hit ABS.

4. Tires look brand new

[dawei213]

Thanks Montaver and NYG.

Although I have yet to try other tracks but I really enjoyed Lightning from turn 2 all the way through turn 9.

I agree with both of you that I was probably not driving near the limit of the tire/vehicle, hence TC didn't kick in. It's something I'll have to keep working towards until I understand where the limits are.

Can't wait for the next track days. I'm already looking at the PCA event happening on the first weekend of October at NJMP Thunderbolt.

[NYG]

Originally Posted by dawei213

Thanks Montaver and NYG.

Although I have yet to try other tracks but I really enjoyed Lightning from turn 2 all the way through turn 9.

I agree with both of you that I was probably not driving near the limit of the tire/vehicle, hence TC didn't kick in. It's something I'll have to keep working towards until I understand where the limits are.

Can't wait for the next track days. I'm already looking at the PCA event happening on the first weekend of October at NJMP Thunderbolt.

You weren't driving at the limit but don't be put down by that, most of us aren't capable of that. Driving at the VERY limit of the car all the time requires a lot of skill, bucket seats and a stiff track suspension. Stock seats and the stock suspension will dampen the information that the road/tires give your body. Most of us are either driving just under the limit or if you're an asshole like me, a combination of under and over (bad habit of overbraking and oversteering).

The plus side of all this is that your chassis is incredible so when/if you decide to start getting the car a bit more track focused - you've the platform to succeed in. I'm already 2 cars disconnected from my M4 and if I could roll back time and do it all over again, even if I could start on GT3RS, I would still start with the F8X again.

I'm not a huge fan of Thunderbolt but it is a great track to turn all the nannies off - it was the first track I took my M4 to and where I met Montaver. My first spin in that car was at the kink after the octopus. You'll learn a lot about compression from turn 7 to the octopus.

Best advice that I can give you from my experiences thus far:

1. Don't be scared of spinning out - embrace it, especially right now when you're starting. Just do it carefully and make sure you're doing where runoff is available (Tbolt is almost entirely runoff).

2. Use Castrol SRF for brake fluid and have a front big brake kit at the top of your list for upgrade priority.

You're doing everything right - you did your research and you got the right tools/tires/telemetry/pads. A lot of people go in blind and end up spending a lot of time getting to the point that you're starting on so good work.

[Gomeler]

I'm going to argue the ABS on F8x point. I lean into ABS when I'm shedding 60+mph at the end of a straight. Still practice rolling gently into the brake and releasing the brake even more gently, but I punish the hell out of my brake pedal in between those points. With heated Toyo RRs it takes some serious effort to over brake the front, but I don't shy away from it. I have found the F8x ABS programming to do a damn good job of managing r-comp grip and throwing the anchor out back.

I'll be honest though, I only do this when I'm being a huge dick and passing under braking because I don't want someone messing up the upcoming multi-turn compound. For example, novices will brake at 400ft, meanwhile I'll brake at 150ft and brake all the way to the apex.

I put people into my car with MDM, and that's a great place for people to Sunday cruise around the track. However, on a 2 minute lap MDM adds 5-7 seconds/lap due to corner exit bogging. MDM really doesn't want any rotation, especially under power. I also encourage owners to drop MDM ASAP, especially if your course is pretty safe with runoffs. Spin your car a bunch at a test and tune day, and learn what it feels like.

[dawei213]

Originally Posted by NYG

Best advice that I can give you from my experiences thus far:

1. Don't be scared of spinning out - embrace it, especially right now when you're starting. Just do it carefully and make sure you're doing where runoff is available (Tbolt is almost entirely runoff).

2. Use Castrol SRF for brake fluid and have a front big brake kit at the top of your list for upgrade priority.

You're doing everything right - you did your research and you got the right tools/tires/telemetry/pads. A lot of people go in blind and end up spending a lot of time getting to the point that you're starting on so good work.

Thanks for the additional advice.

I'm not afraid of spinning out, done it plenty of times before while autocrossing. What I fear are the other cars that's around me or coming from behind around the corner that may not see me. I guess that's something I'll have to take into consideration when choosing certain turns more aggressively.

As for the upgrades, I researched both Castrol SRF and BBK (been scouring the FS suspension sub for the last month) but decided that if/when I get to that point, then I'll look into it. It maybe a year or a few years, but I'll want to work on getting to driving my limits first and then upgrade. Then depending how much I track or how much fade I do experience based on my abilities, I may look into just a rotor upgrade to Girodisc or Alcon.

Two things I have coming are the Millway Street Camber plates and the Simpson Hybrid S. Camber plates has always been on my upgrade list but not the HNR.

Prior to the event, I wasn't sure if I needed the Hybrid S in a 3 point seat. However, after getting strapped into the M4 GTS and 911 GT3 instructor cars, both with a 5 point harness, whipping around 20% faster speed, that's when I realized if I am to get into vehicles going that fast with those harnesses in the future, I should use a HANS or Hybrid S. Going 140 mph+ down the straight and slowing down to 60 mph behind a slower car right before turn 1, it provided a moment of clarity while considering what-if scenarios. Better to be safe than injured.

[dawei213]

Originally Posted by Gomeler

I'm going to argue the ABS on F8x point. I lean into ABS when I'm shedding 60+mph at the end of a straight. Still practice rolling gently into the brake and releasing the brake even more gently, but I punish the hell out of my brake pedal in between those points. With heated Toyo RRs it takes some serious effort to over brake the front, but I don't shy away from it. I have found the F8x ABS programming to do a damn good job of managing r-comp grip and throwing the anchor out back.

I'll be honest though, I only do this when I'm being a huge dick and passing under braking because I don't want someone messing up the upcoming multi-turn compound. For example, novices will brake at 400ft, meanwhile I'll brake at 150ft and brake all the way to the apex.

I put people into my car with MDM, and that's a great place for people to Sunday cruise around the track. However, on a 2 minute lap MDM adds 5-7 seconds/lap due to corner exit bogging. MDM really doesn't want any rotation, especially under power. I also encourage owners to drop MDM ASAP, especially if your course is pretty safe with runoffs. Spin your car a bunch at a test and tune day, and learn what it feels like.

When I hit ABS, it wasn't for that long (maybe a fraction of a second to a second?) and didn't felt like I couldn't stop the car. The instructor didn't mention anything about avoiding ABS. I know I still have to work on brake pressure modulation at the start and end of braking. But if some ABS action isn't detrimental, it can provide that time advantage and later braking.

As for turning off MDM, the first instructor mentioned it's up to me as he felt comfortable with my driving. However the two new instructors discouraged that. I can understand from their perspective as they are new to instructing and jumping into a high hp vehicle with a guy that has zero track day experience and their hesitancy to have TC turned off. Hopefully I'll be able to make some good progress next event and turn it off sooner than later. I may run a few sessions on OEM MPSS af the next event just to get that experience.

[NYG]

Originally Posted by dawei213

When I hit ABS, it wasn't for that long (maybe a fraction of a second to a second?) and didn't felt like I couldn't stop the car. The instructor didn't mention anything about avoiding ABS. I know I still have to work on brake pressure modulation at the start and end of braking. But if some ABS action isn't detrimental, it can provide that time advantage and later braking.

As for turning off MDM, the first instructor mentioned it's up to me as he felt comfortable with my driving. However the two new instructors discouraged that. I can understand from their perspective as they are new to instructing and jumping into a high hp vehicle with a guy that has zero track day experience and their hesitancy to have TC turned off. Hopefully I'll be able to make some good progress next event and turn it off sooner than later. I may run a few sessions on OEM MPSS af the next event just to get that experience.

So this is a bit of a touchy subject. Some people will argue that safer is better but depending on the car you're in it may not be the safer route.

In a road vehicle with factory seats and airbags - you don't really want any of the stuff that racers need/use because in the event of an impact your body being able to move with the airbags deploying will dissipate more energy.

[dawei213]

Originally Posted by NYG

In a road vehicle with factory seats and airbags - you don't really want any of the stuff that racers need/use because in the event of an impact your body being able to move with the airbags deploying will dissipate more energy.

You're referring to HNRs with this comment right? If so, I'm concerned about jumping into a 5 or 6 point harnessed vehicle without such device, though I don't know how often I'll do that in the future. And since the Simpson Hybrid S has been tested and approved for 3 point seat belts, I would think it should be as safe or more safe than without it?

[NYG]

Originally Posted by dawei213

You're referring to HNRs with this comment right? If so, I'm concerned about jumping into a 5 or 6 point harnessed vehicle without such device, though I don't know how often I'll do that in the future. And since the Simpson Hybrid S has been tested and approved for 3 point seat belts, I would think it should be as safe or more safe than without it?

If you're in a 6 point harness then yes you should wear a hans but you should also have a fix seat and cage at that point.

The hybrid is an amazing device but realistically, the airbag will not let your neck whip forward. I was seconds away from purchasing one after my crash but decided against it.