Why no M3 DCT ring time?

[footie]

I know I brought this up some time ago but I feel it's time to be reopened.

Why is there no Supertest conducted by Sport Auto for the M3 M-DCT? It's no a silly question to ask when you see then conducting other tests on similar models from other brands, in fact they have re done the R8. Is it possible that the M3 M-DCT is slower than the manual and BMW are not releasing it to them for testing.

It's a question I would love an answer to and I reckon that I am one of many thinking the very same thing.

[lucid]

It is possible that they are aware of the software issues, and are waiting until they are resolved?

[skierman64]

How could it possibly be slower?

[footie]

Originally Posted by skierman64

How could it possibly be slower?

I'm convinced it this. The manual with it's extra control over what the car is doing is actually quicker, which would be a shame when all other examples are the opposite.

[lucid]

Footie, I don't understand how you are convinced here. How exactly does the manual have more control? Are you referring to the software issues with downshifting and all that? As long as DCT shifts when it is told to, I don't see how the manual transmission yields more control.

[footie]

Originally Posted by lucid

Footie, I don't understand how you are convinced here. How exactly does the manual have more control? Are you referring to the software issues with downshifting and all that? As long as DCT shifts when it is told to, I don't see how the manual transmission yields more control.

Yes it's mostly to do with the issues that M-DCT has that I am basing my opinions on. Sorry for not making that clearer.

[southlight]

Interesting is that Sportauto tested a 335i with DCT in the recent issue and they said that DCT suits the inline 6 of the 335 better than the M3's V8. So they indeed seem to have sampled a DCT M3 already, though they haven't published a test yet. Whatever the reason is I don't want to guess...


Best regards, south

[footie]

Originally Posted by southlight

Interesting is that Sportauto tested a 335i with DCT in the recent issue and they said that DCT suits the inline 6 of the 335 better than the M3's V8. So they indeed seem to have sampled a DCT M3 already, though they haven't published a test yet. Whatever the reason is I don't want to guess...


Best regards, south

I am always under the impression they have tested it before but for what ever reason the results haven't been published. Is it possible that BMW have asked they results not to be published until it's problems are sorted?

[Dascamel]

It is strange, hopefully holding out for software. Have a feeling though the times will be fairly close for professional drivers.

[skierman64]

Originally Posted by footie

Yes it's mostly to do with the issues that M-DCT has that I am basing my opinions on. Sorry for not making that clearer.

But now that the new DCT software has been out for a few weeks, I'd have thought we'd see some test runs. DCT should be slightly faster than 6MT on the track due to uninterrupted acceleration and perfect downshifts. Plus one more gear ratio makes it a little easier to keep the revs in the sweet spot.

Originally Posted by southlight

Interesting is that Sportauto tested a 335i with DCT in the recent issue and they said that DCT suits the inline 6 of the 335 better than the M3's V8. Best regards, south

The reason DCT suits the 335 better IMHO is because there's no loss of boost during gearshifts with the 335 with DCT, which means it can keep the boost pressure up throughout the entire acceleration run and the engine can continue to crank out max HP without interruption. That's my educated guess.

[southlight]

Originally Posted by footie

Is it possible that BMW have asked they results not to be published until it's problems are sorted?

I think it is. But is that likely?

Originally Posted by skierman64

The reason DCT suits the 335 better IMHO is because there's no loss of boost during gearshifts with the 335 with DCT, which means it can keep the boost pressure up throughout the entire acceleration run and the engine can continue to crank out max HP without interruption. That's my educated guess.

That's exactly what they said.


Best regards, south

[swamp2]

Foot, you can't have your cake and eat it too. You made the claim about the large advantage Porsche got from PDK at the N'Ring and even though your figures were not apples to apples, you seem completely convinced by the advantage, say 5-10 seconds, apples to apples. Of course this made up a piece of your view/argument about the under-rating of the GT-R. So how would it be that all of the other manufacturers get a benefit on track from DC and BMW doesn't? This simply does not make sense. Sure earlier software bugs may be the contributing/deciding factor. However, if SA actively withheld poor results that would be quite a story in itself. And I do agree they simply must have got a DCT car and run it on the Ring by now.

Maybe we can go back to basics. BMW advertises better performance numbers for acceleration for the DCT. We have test results showing better numbers. DCT has favorable gears both in quantity and in gear ratios to yield better performance. Not to mention the greatly improved shift times. Lastly in a similar way that DCT is a good match for a FI engine it is also a good match for a high revving design to keep it high in its rpm range for more of the time. Does it make sense in any way that DCT (working properly) won't be faster on the track? I think the answer is fairly clearly no.

What about the C63 AMG N'Ring time? Perhaps there is a conspiracy on this test as well?

[footie]

swamp,

I think you have answered the question. The DCT should be quicker and there is little doubt that Sport Auto received a car early on and no doubt put it through their usual tests that involve Hockenheim and Nurburgring. So why no facts and figures?

Personally I believe it's not performing as expected. Whether SA went back to BMW with their results asking for a replacement because of finding the issues on the track that has been reported here and decided to hold off until things are sorted or BMW asked for time to offer a replacement because of the problems, I doubt anyone will truly know the answer, but they must have tested it and still we have no results.

A bit odd don't you think.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by footie

swamp,

I think you have answered the question. The DCT should be quicker and there is little doubt that Sport Auto received a car early on and no doubt put it through their usual tests that involve Hockenheim and Nurburgring. So why no facts and figures?

Personally I believe it's not performing as expected. Whether SA went back to BMW with their results asking for a replacement because of finding the issues on the track that has been reported here and decided to hold off until things are sorted or BMW asked for time to offer a replacement because of the problems, I doubt anyone will truly know the answer, but they must have tested it and still we have no results.

A bit odd don't you think.

If this happened it is indeed very odd. It doesn't paint SA as being objective and fair to all manufacturers. Hmm, then again maybe they would extend such a retest offer to all. Since I'm not very familiar with their overall reputation I would have to defer to others, like perhaps South on this. What do you think South?

Hopefully we don't have another magazine as BMW biased as Car and Driver. Heck look at the letter C&D wrote Nissan shortly after the M3 vs. 997TT vs. GT-R test, here.

[shakan]

If F1 teams all switched to twin clutch seamless gearboxes, there must be a reason. I don't believe a DCT BMW will be slower unless there are software glitches.

[Krueger///M3]

Originally Posted by swamp2

If this happened it is indeed very odd. It doesn't paint SA as being objective and fair to all manufacturers. Hmm, then again maybe they would extend such a retest offer to all. Since I'm not very familiar with their overall reputation I would have to defer to others, like perhaps South on this. What do you think South?

Hopefully we don't have another magazine as BMW biased as Car and Driver. Heck look at the letter C&D wrote Nissan shortly after the M3 vs. 997TT vs. GT-R test, here.

Do you actually believe that link about C&D being on the BMW payroll? I read a comment in the comments section of one of their magazines joking about them moving from a 2002 address that included a comment from BMW, but the writing of this letter just sounds like a joke.

[swamp2]

Originally Posted by Krueger///M3

Do you actually believe that link about C&D being on the BMW payroll?

My attempt at sarcasm obviously failed here. I simply found the letter loosely relevant and most will agree there is some pro BMW bias at C&D. The letter just took it to a whole other level.

[footie]

Originally Posted by swamp2

I would have to defer to others, like perhaps South on this. What do you think South?

Exactly that I was thinking and by what South said it looks like they have indeed tested the M3 DCT when they can say comments like it suits the 335i better.

Guys, there has to be a reason for no data being forth coming.

[M3WC]

They should repave the ring with a fresh surface and nullify all times. They would be hilarious.

[southlight]

Originally Posted by swamp2

If this happened it is indeed very odd. It doesn't paint SA as being objective and fair to all manufacturers. Hmm, then again maybe they would extend such a retest offer to all. Since I'm not very familiar with their overall reputation I would have to defer to others, like perhaps South on this. What do you think South?

SA is most likely the magazine with the highest reputation in Germany. Anyway, there are rumors about some influence being exerted every now and then. For instance, right before the "Supertest" of the M3 (with MT in late 07) some said that BMW weren't satisfied with the outcome and tried to repress the test. I have no clue if there's any substance to these rumors. So now we're at it again: Some said BMW repressed the publication of the M3 DCT test.

Again, I can't say if that's true or not. For sure car makers have great influence to magazines nowadays (no ads -> no money -> no future), but I still don't want to believe a great mag like SA is willing to abandon their principles for a full-page ad.


Best regards, south

[footie]

South,

Is it possible that if manufacturers don't provide cars for a supertest Sport Auto go and get one from another source and test them anyway, just because of their importance like what the M3 M-DCT should be on the market?

You see, I can't believe that they haven't tested/tried the DCT M3. All magazines have, but with the exception of US rags I don't know of any which have conducted a 'full' test on the DCT car.

It all sounds very fishy to me.

[Just_me]

Where is the C63 AMG supertest. Its test we all waiting for. C63 is getting "old" now so where is the supertest?
Isnt Mercedes happy with the result or what?