New crankhub fix - Litchfield

[parabmw]

https://www.litchfieldmotors.com/blo...rank-hub-issue

Is this any different than those on the market?
Bolt capture looks different.

[Clark_Kent]

Interesting find and thanks for posting. It was good they provided context for what the issue is, why it happens and how. I also didn't know Litchfield was tuning the F series.

[NashvegasR]

Interesting and thank you yes. Can someone explain what this "capture plate" actually does ? / how it works ? I See it but... can't see how it does anything.

[Smee]

i am worried its not keyed or pinned to the crank like the gintani or maximum psi. what is to stop that from spinning on the crank?

[parabmw]

Do gintani or maxpsi both require drilling?

[Smee]

yea the gintani you drill the crank and a nob on the hub is effectively keyed and stops the hub from spinning and the MAXPSI one you drill 2 small holes and pin it to the crank

the litchfield one doesnt do any of this. its just a 1 piece hub not keyed or pinned

[Djdnav]

Their post provides no new information or explanation. It also barely describes their product and how it is supposedly an improvement on what is already available.

[drgmt]

Originally Posted by Djdnav

Their post provides no new information or explanation. It also barely describes their product and how it is supposedly an improvement on what is already available.

Exactly. It's perhaps the most unhelpful paragraph on the topic I've read. Essentially regurgitate what is known.

Doesn't project a lot of confidence that there product actually resolves the issue.

The other issue is this is by far a tuned car issue. To say that this occurs in any significant way in stock cars is misleading. There are a handful of cars where this has occurred in stock and I bet they were shifting errors.

[M3anPower]

Originally Posted by NashvegasR

Interesting and thank you yes. Can someone explain what this "capture plate" actually does ? / how it works ? I See it but... can't see how it does anything.

I have the same question, their part 1 is not clear..

[wsccsw13]

Originally Posted by drgmt

Exactly. It's perhaps the most unhelpful paragraph on the topic I've read. Essentially regurgitate what is known.

Doesn't project a lot of confidence that there product actually resolves the issue.

The other issue is this is by far a tuned car issue. To say that this occurs in any significant way in stock cars is misleading. There are a handful of cars where this has occurred in stock and I bet they were shifting errors.

Has happens on more DCT cars than MT, stock or tuned...not a shifting issue....

[drgmt]

Originally Posted by wsccsw13

Has happens on more DCT cars than MT, stock or tuned...not a shifting issue....

There are a handful of stock cars. > 99% of cars are modified running power beyond what the car was engineered for. Often using fuel not recommended for the car. This is not an important issue for stock cars running within manufacturer tolerance limits - at least statistically.

Of the stock cars - how many were tuned at one point ? I'm confident the transmission type plays no role in the statistical chance of this occurring.

If you keep the car stock - you have a greater chance of winning Lotto than you have of spinning the crank hub.

[wsccsw13]

Originally Posted by drgmt

There are a handful of stock cars. > 99% of cars are modified running power beyond what the car was engineered for. Often using fuel not recommended for the car. This is not an important issue for stock cars running within manufacturer tolerance limits - at least statistically.

Of the stock cars - how many were tuned at one point ? I'm confident the transmission type plays no role in the statistical chance of this occurring.

If you keep the car stock - you have a greater chance of winning Lotto than you have of spinning the crank hub.

This has happened on lots of stock cars. Your odds of winning the lotto are 1 in 300 million, thus a way better relative chance of a spun crank hub. Call any reputable shop that specializes in these cars and doesn’t make their own fix, such as Bimmerworld, and they’ll tell you the same thing they told me: they have seen many from stock to tuned to race prepped; it’s the weak point of the engine and a carryover design that can’t handle the S55. I had thought and hoped it was over blown, then mine spun...12k miles on the car, had it since new, only 1000 miles of DPs and stage 2 tune and one 20 minute warm up track session. Not abusing, not even pushing the car with the tune as I have in the past without the tune.

The e46 and the e9x had there design/engineering issues (and please recall their crank hub was keyed and could handle a supercharger bolted on). This is the F8x’s issue. Is it more likely to fail if pushed, probably. But the fact that it happens to stock cars demonstrates it’s an issue. The DME actually measures the engine going out of time and completely shuts the engine down with too much deviation...there is a sensor for this...thus they knew it could slowly let go and the system can attempt and hopefully catch it before pistons hit valves. Most engines just need to be retimed and a new hub. And remember this part is smooth machined steel pressed together with a bolt torqued to 100 NM and stretched 270 degrees, but a base motor makes 550 NM of torque; that’s the force this crank sees a lot...and go figure they’re going back to a keyed hub on the B58/S58.

[wsccsw13]

And just to be clear, I love my M4 and am keeping it indefinitely. I paid cash to repair with an upgraded aftermarket hub from maximum PSI at my local shop. This will continue to be my track car and occasional DD. I’m merely pointing out this isn’t the first M engine that’s had an issue and BMW is not infallible. Porsche had the IMS issue. Every car in this category has something. It’s found, fixed, and you move on.

[drgmt]

Originally Posted by wsccsw13

This has happened on lots of stock cars. Your odds of winning the lotto are 1 in 300 million, thus a way better relative chance of a spun crank hub. Call any reputable shop that specializes in these cars and doesn’t make their own fix, such as Bimmerworld, and they’ll tell you the same thing they told me: they have seen many from stock to tuned to race prepped; it’s the weak point of the engine and a carryover design that can’t handle the S55. I had thought and hoped it was over blown, then mine spun...12k miles on the car, had it since new, only 1000 miles of DPs and stage 2 tune and one 20 minute warm up track session. Not abusing, not even pushing the car with the tune as I have in the past without the tune.

The e46 and the e9x had there design/engineering issues (and please recall their crank hub was keyed and could handle a supercharger bolted on). This is the F8x’s issue. Is it more likely to fail if pushed, probably. But the fact that it happens to stock cars demonstrates it’s an issue. The DME actually measures the engine going out of time and completely shuts the engine down with too much deviation...there is a sensor for this...thus they knew it could slowly let go and the system can attempt and hopefully catch it before pistons hit valves. Most engines just need to be retimed and a new hub. And remember this part is smooth machined steel pressed together with a bolt torqued to 100 NM and stretched 270 degrees, but a base motor makes 550 NM of torque; that’s the force this crank sees a lot...and go figure they’re going back to a keyed hub on the B58/S58.

This is predominantly a problem of tuned or modified cars.

Stock cars - completely stock - are extremely unlikely to spin the hub.

A stage 2 tune with downpipes is running outside of the manufacturers specifications - by a fair margin.

This is a "weakness" unmasked by high levels of power often delivered in an unpredictable way by tuners of varying quality and experience.

[wsccsw13]

Call any reputable shop like Bimmerworld and they’ll tell you they see plenty in all forms from stock to race prepped. I’m providing facts as well as a large sample size from reputable/expert shops who aren’t trying to sell you anything. Bimmerworld even said they don’t recommend doing it prophylacticly but if it spins, get an upgraded hub at that point.

I’m just passing on the knowledge I’ve gained from those who know more than either one of us. Do what you want with it. Too many people spouting unhelpful opinions as fact.

[allinon72]

Originally Posted by wsccsw13

This has happened on lots of stock cars. Your odds of winning the lotto are 1 in 300 million, thus a way better relative chance of a spun crank hub. Call any reputable shop that specializes in these cars and doesn’t make their own fix, such as Bimmerworld, and they’ll tell you the same thing they told me: they have seen many from stock to tuned to race prepped; it’s the weak point of the engine and a carryover design that can’t handle the S55. I had thought and hoped it was over blown, then mine spun...12k miles on the car, had it since new, only 1000 miles of DPs and stage 2 tune and one 20 minute warm up track session. Not abusing, not even pushing the car with the tune as I have in the past without the tune.

The e46 and the e9x had there design/engineering issues (and please recall their crank hub was keyed and could handle a supercharger bolted on). This is the F8x’s issue. Is it more likely to fail if pushed, probably. But the fact that it happens to stock cars demonstrates it’s an issue. The DME actually measures the engine going out of time and completely shuts the engine down with too much deviation...there is a sensor for this...thus they knew it could slowly let go and the system can attempt and hopefully catch it before pistons hit valves. Most engines just need to be retimed and a new hub. And remember this part is smooth machined steel pressed together with a bolt torqued to 100 NM and stretched 270 degrees, but a base motor makes 550 NM of torque; that’s the force this crank sees a lot...and go figure they’re going back to a keyed hub on the B58/S58.

Sorry - I don't buy it. The F80/82 has been driven hard since its introduction in 2014. In the 2nd half of 2018, nearly 5 years after the car debuted and towards the end of production, all of a sudden the crank hub is a death sentence. It's not plausible that this is a widespread issue at all, let alone with stock cars.

[wsccsw13]

This has been reported for years in all model years. Who said it was a death sentence? Retime and stock hub replacement at the dealer is~3k and that’s all the vast majority of spun hubs need. I paid 3.8k to a local shop for upgraded aftermarket parts on the recommendation of multiple race shops.

Thanks for illustrating my closing comment earlier.

[allinon72]

Originally Posted by wsccsw13

This has been reported for years in all model years. Who said it was a death sentence? Retime and stock hub replacement at the dealer is~3k and that’s all the vast majority of spun hubs need. I paid 3.8k to a local shop for upgraded aftermarket parts on the recommendation of multiple race shops.

Thanks for illustrating my closing comment earlier.

I say "death sentence" as hyperbole, as the problem has been so incredibly overhyped by this forum, and now by some race shops you reference, making it seem like this is a certainty on every car. It's a large scale game of telephone making individuals spend thousands on "preventative measures" that aren't likely to happen in the first place, especially if you have a stock vehicle, and if it does happen, the fix is the same procedure and cost. It makes literally no sense and is bordering on insanity. And by the way, the purported "fixes" aren't even proven.

[wsccsw13]

Originally Posted by allinon72

I say "death sentence" as hyperbole, as the problem has been so incredibly overhyped by this forum, and now by some race shops you reference, making it seem like this is a certainty on every car. It's a large scale game of telephone making individuals spend thousands on "preventative measures" that aren't likely to happen in the first place, especially if you have a stock vehicle, and if it does happen, the fix is the same procedure and cost. It makes literally no sense and is bordering on insanity. And by the way, the purported "fixes" aren't even proven.

The shops I mentioned said NOT to do it preventively and I stated that; please don’t change my words and mischaracterize them. They said what to do if it spins. I also attempted to share the knowledge that almost all spun crank hubs aren’t that costly to repair and equal the aftermarket crank hub replacements (shared actual quotes/cost I was given/paid for a REPAIR). I didn’t mention nor endorse the “preventive fixes.”

You and I may have different opinions on some things here, but we both are sick of the misinformation, and that is what I’m trying to help clear up as well.

[NickyC]

I've checked with several shops in my neck of the woods, both official BMW and indies whom I've known for years. Nobody has heard of a single spun crank hub, they didn't even know what the hell I was talking about. All gave me the old "everything is a horrible disaster on the internet" speech.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by NickyC

I've checked with several shops in my neck of the woods, both official BMW and indies whom I've known for years. Nobody has heard of a single spun crank hub, they didn't even know what the hell I was talking about. All gave me the old "everything is a horrible disaster on the internet" speech.

The crank hub isn't super common, but there were dealerships saying that until the very end about the S65 rod bearings, and that was common enough to keep a guy in business rebuilding S85 and S65 engines (and spawned a class action suit).

[M3anPower]

Originally Posted by NickyC

I've checked with several shops in my neck of the woods, both official BMW and indies whom I've known for years. Nobody has heard of a single spun crank hub, they didn't even know what the hell I was talking about. All gave me the old "everything is a horrible disaster on the internet" speech.

But Maximum psi and Gintani always out of stock. I'm sure a lot of people out there buying and installing them.