335d vs M3 Power and Torque

[dopper99]

Had a look over Lorcan's graphs on the AC Schnitzer website for both 335d (which I current own) and an M3 (which I have on order).

I've took the figures for the standard tune of each and came up with these graphs.

Here is the source data:

M3: http://preisliste.ac-schnitzer.de/ac...40&ID_NR=13596
335d: http://preisliste.ac-schnitzer.de/ac...01&ID_NR=11645

Here are the rather crude graphs I've come up with, but you get the gist of it.

Was quite surprised that the 335d actually develops slightly more hp up to about 3500rpm - but develops a lot more torque. So I assume from this that below 3500rpm the M3 will feel a little less potent?

But of course after 3500 rpm (which is about half way around the rev counter) the M3 will fly of course.

[dopper99]

But its not all bad!!
If you look at Sutcliffe's M3 vs Alpina D3 vid where he claims the Alpina D3 is just a nose or so ahead of the M3 on an acceleration test, the figures tell it all really!!!!

Below the Alpina D3 (which has about 40 more bhp than a 335d) is at 43mph whereas as the M3 is already at 51mph, thats a fair old lead.

[trey100]

The thing that hurts the diesels is that they don't rev high and as a result they usually have longer gearing, which reduces the actual torque available. If both cars go to say 35 mph in 1st gear, the M will have approximately a relative 50% bump in torque (7600 rpm vs 5500) compared to the diesel. Hence why it is faster overall.

[Mandi90TT]

Something is wrong with the horizontal axis on your bottom graph; the numbers don't increase evenly, which throws the whole graph off. Also, HP is just torque*rpm/5252 so if the torque of the 335d is that much great at RPMs below 3k, the HP should also be equally greater, but on your graphs, it is not, it's just slightly greater. So, key point, something is wrong with your graphs.

Regardless, it's well known that diesels have really strong torque down low in the RPMs, and then sputter out at higher RPMs. That's no surprise. Gearing is what is king, though, and as shown, the performance of the 33d is not greater than the M3/4 due to many things, including gearing.

[dopper99]

Originally Posted by Dave 90TT

Something is wrong with the horizontal axis on your bottom graph; the numbers don't increase evenly, which throws the whole graph off. Also, HP is just torque*rpm/5252 so if the torque of the 335d is that much great at RPMs below 3k, the HP should also be equally greater, but on your graphs, it is not, it's just slightly greater. So, key point, something is wrong with your graphs.

Regardless, it's well known that diesels have really strong torque down low in the RPMs, and then sputter out at higher RPMs. That's no surprise. Gearing is what is king, though, and as shown, the performance of the 33d is not greater than the M3/4 due to many things, including gearing.

Yes agreed the graphs are not great!!!

I realised the x axis is not linear when I posted it up so you are correct! However, the 2 graph lines for each car up to 3500rpm for power are correct I think, if you look at the source data graphs. This is sort of my point of the thread......

Also good point that gearing comes into it too.

[dopper99]

Ok, I've now made the lower torque graph linear, increments of 500 rpm. I'll sort the power later.

[M5essex]

don't forget that peak tq in the diesel only lasts for a 1000rpm or so. so the powerband is short. the M3 has it's peak tq around the same time but lasts for 3650 rpm. in the stock car that is. in the tuned one its peak tq is quite late at 4krpm. that will help with mid range pull, which is exactly what the M3 needs. not early rev torque to creates more wheelspin and traction problems. the penis fizz factor for me is the 50mph to 110mph time being dropped by 1.7 secs

once you have your M3 you wont look back and yearn for the 335d. you'll just want more grunt midrange and be placing an order for an ACS piggy like me!

[MB London]

OP, you may not want to hear this but I am in the market for a 335d xdrive and to get out of the M4

[gtsussex]

Originally Posted by M5essex

don't forget that peak tq in the diesel only lasts for a 1000rpm or so. so the powerband is short. the M3 has it's peak tq around the same time but lasts for 3650 rpm. in the stock car that is. in the tuned one its peak tq is quite late at 4krpm. that will help with mid range pull, which is exactly what the M3 needs. not early rev torque to creates more wheelspin and traction problems. the penis fizz factor for me is the 50mph to 110mph time being dropped by 1.7 secs

once you have your M3 you wont look back and yearn for the 335d. you'll just want more grunt midrange and be placing an order for an ACS piggy like me!

Hah! So you've given in to dark side then? Thought you might! I'd love the ACS power but for me, would rather the RS suspension first. To be fair the CP is the first M3 where I've thought the suspension can mostly handle it. Not sure I can justify both (but I'll bl**dy try as that would make pretty much ultimate M3 for me).

[dopper99]

Originally Posted by MB London

OP, you may not want to hear this but I am in the market for a 335d xdrive and to get out of the M4

Yes I did read one or two of your posts saying that you'd didn't think the M4 was what you thought it would be.

What are your thoughts on wanting to swap it to a 335d? What don't you like about the M4?

I see you are in London .... Not much call for a fast car there unless you get out of town!

[M5essex]

Originally Posted by gtsussex

Hah! So you've given in to dark side then? Thought you might! I'd love the ACS power but for me, would rather the RS suspension first. To be fair the CP is the first M3 where I've thought the suspension can mostly handle it. Not sure I can justify both (but I'll bl**dy try as that would make pretty much ultimate M3 for me).

I can't get that ACS mid range effortless torque out of my head.... Suspension and drop I could perhaps live without... We'll see though! I'll wait for goodwood FOS and check out the new piggy for cp cars..see you there mate

[gtsussex]

Originally Posted by M5essex

I can't get that ACS mid range effortless torque out of my head.... Suspension and drop I could perhaps live without... We'll see though! I'll wait for goodwood FOS and check out the new piggy for cp cars..see you there mate

Hah! It was addictive and noticeable! Looking forward to seeing what ACS get out of CP.

[Lorcan]

Another back-to-backer in this morning, this time with an Austin Yellow 14 plate M4, same as ours. Came in for the suspension, went out shaking his head about the power and the exhaust!

There might be some bank robbing going on this weekend

[dopper99]

Originally Posted by Lorcan

Another back-to-backer in this morning, this time with an Austin Yellow 14 plate M4, same as ours. Came in for the suspension, went out shaking his head about the power and the exhaust!

There might be some bank robbing going on this weekend

Apologies for stealing your graphs Lorcan, but if anyone wants to click on the links in the first posts they can get an idea of how so much better the ACS power upgrade is.

[Lorcan]

No problem. The 80-180km/h time is the clincher, and shows in numbers what you feel on the road. It's like a 0-62mph test but with a rolling 50mph start. Sorts the men from the boys

[Lorcan]

When i say "road" by the way, I mean private test track...

[Wills2]

Dopper old fruit I really do think you're over thinking this, have you driven one yet? If not you can drive mine just to put you out of your misery!

[M5essex]

Originally Posted by Lorcan

When i say "road" by the way, I mean private test track...

Haha... That 'test track' near the queen's country estate is pretty cool... great turns, straights and undulations

[M5essex]

Originally Posted by Wills2

Dopper old fruit I really do think you're over thinking this, have you driven one yet? If not you can drive mine just to put you out of your misery!

You are another one to ask Neil... From e92 m3s to f10 m5 to 336d x drive to f80 m3. You know the progression and difference back to back...

Where in the world are u dopper? More than happy if you want to test drive my cp if there's not one near you?

[dopper99]

Originally Posted by Wills2

Dopper old fruit I really do think you're over thinking this, have you driven one yet? If not you can drive mine just to put you out of your misery!

Arrr dont worry, I'm just amusing myself over data and figures while I wait another 2 bloody months for the car to arrive!!!!!!
I believe me, I'd rather have the car and drive it than buggering around with figures and graphs!!!

Originally Posted by M5essex

You are another one to ask Neil... From e92 m3s to f10 m5 to 336d x drive to f80 m3. You know the progression and difference back to back...

Where in the world are u dopper? More than happy if you want to test drive my cp if there's not one near you?

I'm in north Wilts.
But had a passenger ride in Guy's car the other week, so I have an idea what its like.

[Wills2]

Originally Posted by dopper99

But its not all bad!!
If you look at Sutcliffe's M3 vs Alpina D3 vid where he claims the Alpina D3 is just a nose or so ahead of the M3 on an acceleration test, the figures tell it all really!!!!

Below the Alpina D3 (which has about 40 more bhp than a 335d) is at 43mph whereas as the M3 is already at 51mph, thats a fair old lead.

And that was probably one of the most biased tests I've ever seen, notice how he puts the D3 in launch control mode/sport+ but the M3 throttle in efficiency mode, yet the M3 is still ahead.

[Karlj]

Originally Posted by Wills2

And that was probably one of the most biased tests I've ever seen, notice how he puts the D3 in launch control mode/sport+ but the M3 throttle in efficiency mode, yet the M3 is still ahead.

That's horrific, I'd never noticed that before. And he has the cheek to say, "we simply left them in Drive and nailed it."...