Budget Minded BBK

[boostincincy]

Hey ya'll first time posting, I'm looking to change over from my EVO IX to an E92 2008/2009. I just want to make it a street able track car as I live in NYC, and can't have a full race car.

Probably do a 2-way coil over, exhaust, roll bar , seats/harness, lip, wheels… and now from I'm reading is that the stock brakes will leave me wanting more?

So, with that in mind, I'd love to conserve money where I can, so just wondering is everyone doing front & rear for upgraded brakes?

Also, what's the more budget friendly option, if there is such a thing? Just seeing what I need to budget, as well as feedback on the stock brakes in general.

thanks everyone

[Leglessracing]

Brakes and suspension is where you should be focusing your money to start with. If you are looking to go budget on your bbk its not the way to go. You can always add power but if you go budget brakes now you will only want better when you add bhp to the car and won't be able to stop and have to upgrade your brakes again.

That's my $0.02 any way!

[EJT86]

I'd say SS lines race fluid and race pads on the stock system if on a "budget" in the meantime you can scour the forums for a used set

[surlynkid]

brakes
roll bar
seats
harness AND A HANS or equivalent.

I'll buy all that. That is all safety.

forget about a lip and wheels for now. get it to stop and make sure you are planted in there safely. do the wheels/tires, coilover, exhaust, lip in that order after the safety stuff.

[tdott]

If you are handy, Caddy CTS V stock brembo 6pot calipers can be bad for only a couple hundred rebuilt. A custom bracket and pads and you are good. You can always go with a 2piece rotor if you want also.

[Groundpilot]

You want to install front lip and drive it in NYC? It will brake in less than one week, guaranteed.
As for badget brakes, i suggest PFC two piece slotted front rotors, PFC 08 pads all around with SRF racing brake fluid. Forget SS lines. They dont make the difference performance wise.

[Sleeper519]

Stock E9x M3 brakes are great on the street, suck on the track. You can do the Poor-man's brake upgrade (fluid, pads, lines) so that it's passable, but it just suck's a little less, and if you track it (hard) enough you will eventually upgrade to BBK.

I think the StopTechs are more budget friendly than say Brembo or AP Racing, both in initial outlay and replacement items. Some people go just with the front set and seem to be pretty happy tracking with that. I went with both front and rear because I'm a brake whore and I want my lovely but heavy pig of a track car to by gosh stop when its told to.

Either way, I would address brakes first, and looking for a used set is not a bad idea. Also, go with a set that is designed for this car, not a GM.

GL.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Groundpilot

You want to install front lip and drive it in NYC? It will brake in less than one week, guaranteed.
As for badget brakes, i suggest PFC two piece slotted front rotors, PFC 08 pads all around with SRF racing brake fluid. Forget SS lines. They dont make the difference performance wise.

This

This is more than what is needed by any normal person on the track. The pfc dd rotors are of exceptional quality, they hold up 5x more than the oem rotors

[Sleeper519]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

This

This is more than what is needed by any normal person on the track. The pfc dd rotors are of exceptional quality, they hold up 5x more than the oem rotors

...uh, define normal.


especially on this forum.

[surlynkid]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

This

This is more than what is needed by any normal person on the track. The pfc dd rotors are of exceptional quality, they hold up 5x more than the oem rotors

Uh.....my wife can kill PFC 08 pads and front rotors in no time and can kill a set of Nittos in 2 weekends. What is a normal track person? Maybe a blue/green student can survive with those items. Fast drivers can consume these parts like tic tacs.

[nicksm3]

Suspension, BBK's with SS brakelines, brake fluid, coilovers, proper tires, proper street/track alignment.

Start from there...then I'd say 18" lightweight wheels, sway bars etc

[Petros]

Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow

This

This is more than what is needed by any normal person on the track. The pfc dd rotors are of exceptional quality, they hold up 5x more than the oem rotors

by normal do you mean slow? Because the oem brakes even with pads and fluid are mediocre on the track. Even an intermediate level driver will quickly smoke the oem brakes on a trackday. I upgraded to an ap racing set and I'm never looking back. Night and day difference.

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Sleeper519

...uh, define normal.


especially on this forum.

As in what is actually needed

[SYT_Shadow]

Originally Posted by Petros

by normal do you mean slow? Because the oem brakes even with pads and fluid are mediocre on the track. Even an intermediate level driver will quickly smoke the oem brakes on a trackday. I upgraded to an ap racing set and I'm never looking back. Night and day difference.

Note I mention pfc dd rotors. Big difference to stock

Lufty runs with this setup, is not slow, and is quite happy with it

I did the equivalent with a E46M. Kept up with all the bbk cars just fine

[lutfy]

Originally Posted by surlynkid

Uh.....my wife can kill PFC 08 pads and front rotors in no time and can kill a set of Nittos in 2 weekends. What is a normal track person? Maybe a blue/green student can survive with those items. Fast drivers can consume these parts like tic tacs.

The brake issue is true as I would kill a set of PF01s fronts in 4 sessions (NO TYPO HERE). Here's the solution and I have been doing this since last year and it works like a champ! Now front pads last 2-3 weekends (2 at Summit, 3 at VIR, Glen, Road ATL etc.).

1) PF Direct Drive rotors. Much better cooling. Not cross drilled so pads last longer.
2) PF08 or Pagid Yellow are fine for this application.
3) Castrol SRF Fluid
4) Remove the front dust shield.

I had the BW metal guide pins until this past weekend and the pads wore evenly but since I run track pads on the street and dont change pads often, the darn metal guide pin froze up. New Calipers all around now with rubber/oem guide. Pads to wear a bit off but I change when its 1/3 down anyways.

Very happy with the above setup. Stock rotors with any race pads was HORRID.

Pertaining to Nittos, how much negative camber is up front? I get 8 track days and I rotate each weekend. Flip on the wheel after 2 weekends (RA1 comparable tires here) running in Instructor session.

Cheers,

Lutfy

[surlynkid]

-3.0 up front with zero toe. -2.1 or 2.2 in the rear with stock toe in. If I tell her there are no more on the trailer, she seems to make them last longer. Track surface is the key. COTA is smooth. TWS eats them up.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by tdott

If you are handy, Caddy CTS V stock brembo 6pot calipers can be bad for only a couple hundred rebuilt. A custom bracket and pads and you are good. You can always go with a 2piece rotor if you want also.

That's the WORST possible thing you can do to the M3 brakes.

You need to measure the overall size of the pistons from the upgraded calipers to the stock calipers and make sure they're of roughly equal size, and if they're not equal, make sure they're SMALLER overall. Otherwise you will actually be decreasing the amount of brake capacity rather than improve.

[Kunman]

I believe the stoptech or AP front only 355mm is the cheapest bbk track setup

The CHEAPEST street track setup (my setup)

1. used race pads + SRF
2. 17 inch rims +NT01 275sq
3. camber plates 2.7f, 1.5r
4. secondary delete + exhaust mod
5. take out rear seats + junk in the trunk
6. yank seatbelt lock
7. mop zip tie steering fluid container

Originally Posted by The HACK

That's the WORST possible thing you can do to the M3 brakes.

You need to measure the overall size of the pistons from the upgraded calipers to the stock calipers and make sure they're of roughly equal size, and if they're not equal, make sure they're SMALLER overall. Otherwise you will actually be decreasing the amount of brake capacity rather than improve.

Has anyone done this? LOL sounds interesting.

[tdott]

Originally Posted by The HACK

That's the WORST possible thing you can do to the M3 brakes.

You need to measure the overall size of the pistons from the upgraded calipers to the stock calipers and make sure they're of roughly equal size, and if they're not equal, make sure they're SMALLER overall. Otherwise you will actually be decreasing the amount of brake capacity rather than improve.

That is a great example of sheep minded mentally. Vendors pray on people like you.

All you have to do is get the balance right, the rear and the master/brake balance would had to be modified if needed to retain the correct balance, it was just a start not a complete example. It's not rocket science.

Plus it was just an example of something that could be done or another direction that could be taken if someone wanted to fab up a kit themselves. The OP was looking for suggestions outside of the norm, I provided one, you provided the response of a sheep not capable of thinking for themselves.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by tdott

That is a great example of sheep minded mentally. Vendors pray on people like you.

All you have to do is get the balance right, the rear and the master/brake balance would had to be modified if needed to retain the correct balance, it was just a start not a complete example. It's not rocket science.

Plus it was just an example of something that could be done or another direction that could be taken if someone wanted to fab up a kit themselves. The OP was looking for suggestions outside of the norm, I provided one, you provided the response of a sheep not capable of thinking for themselves.

This is a clear example of someone who doesn't know braking and engineering behind braking that thinks they know enough to tinker.

You absolutely have to make sure the front and rear balance are correct. However, if the overall piston area in the front and the rear add up to be bigger than the OEM piston area, you will end up with a very soft pedal. That means, you will need to upgrade the master cylinder pistons to retain the same brake pressure. That means, your "budget" upgrade now become significantly more expensive than had you just upgraded to a kit that is DESIGNED to work with your car.

Believe you me. I once put a kit in a different car (350Z) that I thought would work just like you had assumed. The end result was, under ANY braking situations, the pedal goes almost all the way to the floor immediately, with far less "slowing down" than OEM. We chased and bled and bled and chased, to no avail. Until one of my brake vendor buddies pointed out to me that our overall piston area is ~10% larger than OEM piston size, and this is the end result of us trying to mix and match calipers that weren't designed to work for this specific application.

So we looked further into how to fix it given the calipers were already installed, and we've already gone through all the time, effort, and money to "upgrade." The end result? We ended up putting in a custom Tilton master cylinder. The entire project started out as trying to fit a "budget" take off caliper on the car for $1,000 to a project that took over $5,000 to complete.

I speak from a position of EXPERIENCE. Unlike you.

[tdott]

Originally Posted by The HACK

I speak from a position of EXPERIENCE. Unlike you.

Yes, sounds like you had a failed experience because you didn't do your homework up front.

I don't have any experience doing this on an E9x platform (or 350z), but on the e30/e36 platform there are several master cylinders that can be interchanged with different piston size. I wasn't suggesting someone bolt up parts and hope it works, I was suggesting someone do their homework, find the caliper piston sizes, master cylinder piston size, brake pad surface area, brake bias, etc and calculate what is needed and find a similar type of caliper that would work. or interchange other components to make it work.

Are you saying that is it not possible to interchange stock parts from another car and not have it work properly just because you failed at it??

There are many examples of this on other platforms and see no reason why someone couldn't make it work on the e9x platform, would you like me to spoon feed you some examples?

Is it going to be easy? No. Is it going to be cheaper? Maybe not, if you had to pay someone to do the research, fabrication and install. Can someone that is knowledgeable, resourceful, handy with access to stock parts at relatively cheaper parts make it work? Absolutely I think so...

[Z K]

Originally Posted by tdott

Yes, sounds like you had a failed experience because you didn't do your homework up front.

I don't have any experience doing this on an E9x platform (or 350z), but on the e30/e36 platform there are several master cylinders that can be interchanged with different piston size. I wasn't suggesting someone bolt up parts and hope it works, I was suggesting someone do their homework, find the caliper piston sizes, master cylinder piston size, brake pad surface area, brake bias, etc and calculate what is needed and find a similar type of caliper that would work. or interchange other components to make it work.

Are you saying that is it not possible to interchange stock parts from another car and not have it work properly just because you failed at it??

There are many examples of this on other platforms and see no reason why someone couldn't make it work on the e9x platform, would you like me to spoon feed you some examples?

I ran 300ZX front brakes on a 240SX before. Complete bolt on for the car. The problem is, you also need to change the master cylinder for a 300ZX one because the piston sizes are way different. Also, you need to change out the rear brakes for 300ZX brakes as well and run a 300ZX brake proportioning valve. All this on a car with no ABS system.

I ran it with just bolt on calipers and it was a death trap to drive. On track, when you hit the brake, only the front brakes work and it works very hard, locking up the front wheels and not much brake fluid gets pushed to the rear causing the rear end to lift and slide out under braking. Pretty dangerous and resulted in me spinning out a few times. After the full 300ZX conversion... which was a pain in the ass to do and quite pricey, the car braked correctly... but a cheap $500 upgrade turned into $3k worth of parts and fabrication. I could have easily just have bought a Brembo or Stoptech brake kit.

On a newer car like the M3 with ABS, you better have a mechanical engineering degree to figure out how to get the brake balance right and some know how to re-tune the ABS system to get it to work correctly. Definitely not an easy bolt-on.