How Much HP/TQ is too much for DCT?

[edwinm3]

With the HP/TQ numbers these beasts are putting down and we all know this is just the beginning, How capable are the DCT trannies able to handle all this HP/TQ numbers on stock clutches safely on the track? I ordered my M4 DCT but I'm thinking about switching to manual.

[CanAutM3]

The DCT and differential were taken straight out of the F1X M5/6, so IMO it is safe to assume they can handle up to 600hp and 700Nm (516lb-ft) as they do in the M5 30 jahre special edition.

[edwinm3]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

The DCT and differential were taken straight out of the F1X M5/6, so IMO it is safe to assume they can handle up to 600hp and 700Nm (516lb-ft) as they do in the M5 30 jahre special edition.

Are the clutch discs the same on both applications?

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by edwinm3

Are the clutch discs the same on both applications?

I don't see why not.

[Richy Rich]

I'm at 555 wheel tq, I heard the clutches begin slipping some point after 600.

[gmd2003]

No problems with slippage for me even on track with a tuned full bolt on M6 CP making over 6xxwhp/ 6xxtq . The DCT can handle anything the S55 can throw at it with stock internals.

[edwinm3]

Originally Posted by gmd2003

No problems with slippage for me even on track with a tuned full bolt on M6 CP making over 6xxwhp/ 6xxtq . The DCT can handle anything the S55 can throw at it with stock internals.

Interesting

[edwinm3]

Originally Posted by Richy Rich

I'm at 555 wheel tq, I heard the clutches begin slipping some point after 600.

That's what I had thought

[BQTuning]

Originally Posted by gmd2003

No problems with slippage for me even on track with a tuned full bolt on M6 CP making over 6xxwhp/ 6xxtq . The DCT can handle anything the S55 can throw at it with stock internals.

Its different when you are flashed tuned vs piggyback tuned. Piggyback tuning will start to slip earlier than flash tuning.

Since the N54 and S65 DCT can handle 850-900 nm flash tuned only, then when we are able to flash tune successfully the M4/M3 DME then I am 100% possitively sure we'll see 900-1000nm safely out of it before any type of slippage starts to occur

[edwinm3]

Originally Posted by BuraQ

Its different when you are flashed tuned vs piggyback tuned. Piggyback tuning will start to slip earlier than flash tuning.

Since the N54 and S65 DCT can handle 850-900 nm flash tuned only, then when we are able to flash tune successfully the M4/M3 DME then I am 100% possitively sure we'll see 900-1000nm safely out of it before any type of slippage starts to occur

Can you please elaborate why it would be different or how the tune affects the DCT? Thanks

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by BuraQ

Its different when you are flashed tuned vs piggyback tuned. Piggyback tuning will start to slip earlier than flash tuning.

Since the N54 and S65 DCT can handle 850-900 nm flash tuned only, then when we are able to flash tune successfully the M4/M3 DME then I am 100% possitively sure we'll see 900-1000nm safely out of it before any type of slippage starts to occur

I'm not flash tuned either although I do have a Dinan piggyback which has full control of the ECU . Unfortunately the S63 Tu's ECU's have not been cracked and I doubt they ever will , same goes for the S55 . Other than limited bench flashing the ECU I doubt we will ever see full custom OBD tunes thanks to BMW's encryption efforts .

[BQTuning]

Originally Posted by edwinm3

Can you please elaborate why it would be different or how the tune affects the DCT? Thanks

Originally Posted by gmd2003

I'm not flash tuned either although I do have a Dinan piggyback which has full control of the ECU . Unfortunately the S63 Tu's ECU's have not been cracked and I doubt they ever will , same goes for the S55 . Other than limited bench flashing the ECU I doubt we will ever see full custom OBD tunes thanks to BMW's encryption efforts .

First I would like to clarify a misconception. When you are piggyback tuned you do not have the "accuracy and full control" like a flash only tune when it "pertains to a closed loop system like on the M4/M3

Per Steve Dinan himself:

starting at 0:29

A piggyback offsets the signals to the DME in which the DME is communicating its "flash" based calibrated stock algorithm back to the trasnmission's TCU. What this means in reality the TCU is not getting the proper and correct load to torque calculations to apply the proper bar presure to the clutches to avoid slippage "up to a torque output certain point"

All piggyback manafactures will tune to the point where things become unstable or slippage starts to occur and then back off to a certain point depending on the tuner. Dinan is much much more conservative when it comes to this when compared to BMS JB4

Flash tuning allows absolutely accuracy and proper load to torque reporting by the DME to the TCU to be able to achieve more torque with less risk of slippage.

The same exact folklore started with the conjecture on the N54/S65 DCT with "a certain unmentioned" company and its followers started spewing about the DCT limitations and were proven wrong as the limitation was based on their on method tuning when there was "no backend flash" available

Being that they were able to NOW achieve 550 wtq on "ugpraded turbos" from what was underated by almost 60 wtq before introducing flash as a suppliment to piggyback tuning.

Still to this very day flash only on merely stock turbos is able to achieve higher wtq on the N54/S65 "DCT" over the piggyback and the piggyback + back end flash suppliment

[edwinm3]

I get it now, thank you for taking the time to elaborate

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by BuraQ

First I would like to clarify a misconception. When you are piggyback tuned you do not have the "accuracy and full control" like a flash only tune when it "pertains to a closed loop system like on the M4/M3

Per Steve Dinan himself:

starting at 0:29

A piggyback offsets the signals to the DME in which the DME is communicating its "flash" based calibrated stock algorithm back to the trasnmission's TCU. What this means in reality the TCU is not getting the proper and correct load to torque calculations to apply the proper bar presure to the clutches to avoid slippage "up to a torque output certain point"

All piggyback manafactures will tune to the point where things become unstable or slippage starts to occur and then back off to a certain point depending on the tuner. Dinan is much much more conservative when it comes to this when compared to BMS JB4

Flash tuning allows absolutely accuracy and proper load to torque reporting by the DME to the TCU to be able to achieve more torque with less risk of slippage.

The same exact folklore started with the conjecture on the N54/S65 DCT with "a certain unmentioned" company and its followers started spewing about the DCT limitations and were proven wrong as the limitation was based on their on method tuning when there was "no backend flash" available

Being that they were able to NOW achieve 550 wtq on "ugpraded turbos" from what was underated by almost 60 wtq before introducing flash as a suppliment to piggyback tuning.

Still to this very day flash only on merely stock turbos is able to achieve higher wtq on the N54/S65 "DCT" over the piggyback and the piggyback + back end flash suppliment

The Dinan unit is actually fully integrated directly with the ECU and CAN systems so it always knows exactly how much tq is being generated , it doesn't just trick boost sensors etc . I agree a full ECU tune is ideal but that's never happening on our cars . Having used both BMS and Dinan on the same car the Dinan system makes just as much power but the transmission function is totally stock with the Dinan bc of its integration with the ECU .

[Richy Rich]

Originally Posted by gmd2003

The Dinan unit is actually fully integrated directly with the ECU and CAN systems so it always knows exactly how much tq is being generated , it doesn't just trick boost sensors etc . I agree a full ECU tune is ideal but that's never happening on our cars . Having used both BMS and Dinan on the same car the Dinan system makes just as much power but the transmission function is totally stock with the Dinan bc of its integration with the ECU .

Must have been running map 1, because they don't make comparable power.

[gmd2003]

Originally Posted by Richy Rich

Must have been running map 1, because they don't make comparable power.

BMS at 3.0 with 93 octane is slower than Dinan stage 1 on My car , I've done tons of testing . Higher BMS settings with race gas/ meth can get big dyno numbers but I car about real world driving and consistency and it's not there with BMS especially at track days . It's not like the JB4 for the M3/4all we really have for the TU is simple boost control and if you want meth integration .

[edwinm3]

How safe would it be to run a piggyback system?

[Explicit]

FYI

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...0&postcount=51

[dmk08]

What is the highest tq 6mt car right now?

[edwinm3]

Originally Posted by Explicit

FYI

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...0&postcount=51

Not good, more reasons to change my order to 6mt

[dmk08]

Originally Posted by edwinm3

Not good, more reasons to change my order to 6mt

Seems like thats what you really want why not do it?

[edwinm3]

Originally Posted by dmk08

Seems like thats what you really want why not do it?

I know right, decisions decisions