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      05-29-2014, 03:24 PM   #1
Stevens21234
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Benefits over newer performance cars like AMG C63?

So what exactly are the benefits of the M3 over the upcoming Mercedes C63 AMG sedan? The upcoming C63 AMG is still in spec mode.

There's also the Lexus ISF, Audi RS4.

All of these will boast higher HP, Torque and possibly acceleration numbers higher than the M3 with comparable pricing. What is the M3's edge besides brand loyalty and possibly weight?

Thanks!
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      05-29-2014, 03:47 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevens21234 View Post
So what exactly are the benefits of the M3 over the upcoming Mercedes C63 AMG sedan? The upcoming C63 AMG is still in spec mode.

There's also the Lexus ISF, Audi RS4.

All of these will boast higher HP, Torque and possibly acceleration numbers higher than the M3 with comparable pricing. What is the M3's edge besides brand loyalty and possibly weight?

Thanks!
Very hard to say when one car has only been driven by a few journalists while the other has not been made yet.

Besides brand loyalty and weight, things like steering feel, brake feel and overall handing are things that define an experience. One of the biggest advantages BMW has over Mercedes right now is not only the option for a manual gearbox but also the DCT gearbox which is about the best on the market. No matter the price point (see SLS) AMG have really struggled to match their impressive engines with a gearbox of equal stature.

Easy to answer for the M3 vs the the ISF and RS4; less fuel consumption, more fun to drive, and faster.
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      05-29-2014, 07:34 PM   #3
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manual gearbox has BMW earning my business
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      05-29-2014, 08:07 PM   #4
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manual gearbox has BMW earning my business
^This. Also, I love that the M cars almost always somehow edge out the competition, even with less power and sometimes lower quality interior feel. I will stick to my M's
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      05-29-2014, 08:10 PM   #5
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I leased a 2012 TTS and didn't care for it so I broke the lease and then I leased a 2012 Lexus ISF and while I liked it, The handling wasn't the best, seats I really didn't care for. Straight line performance was nice, but at the end of the day, it acted too much like a lexus.. my isf actually had an edge on a dct e92 I raced.. Breaks were noisy, I broke the lease after 10 months or so on the isf and went for a 2013 M3 dct and loved it more then any car I had for a long time, but after a few months, I crashed it and lost it sadly. Couldn't get another as the model year was done, so I leased a 2013 c63 amg for 10 months, I hated it. The c63 has a beautiful engine, but that's it. interior is dated and there are not enough special buttons or gadgets on the car after they charge you all that money. I know the new bi turbo merc has planned for the new c-class is going to be very nice and will get all of it's much needed updates, as well as a good dual clutch trans. Broke the lease on the c63 last month for a deal I made on a 2015 M4 dct launch car that has arrived at port today and should be taking delivery in a week or two. I couldn't be happier with the way it all worked out and that I get my M back, only in a more updated form.. Chances are, if I still had my e92, I prob would have broke the lease on that anyways to get into the new one. Perks of not buying a car is you can have a new one when you want. doesn't mean im saving money, but I could never do this with purchased cars, that's for sure.

I like audi and love RS models.. BUT, between the lexus, isf, merc, and audi, I didn't really feel as connected with them as the BMW.. Call me crazy, but a faster car isn't what is most important to me.. It's how balanced the car is in every aspect. The e92 I had was one of the first cars in a long time that I actually wanted to hold on to. I just love the service benefits of bmw as well. For me, it's the best over all package for the money.
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      05-29-2014, 08:34 PM   #6
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The fact that the M3 is available to order and take possession of this summer is a big plus. It was what ultimately led me to decide to pull the trigger now. I wanted to enjoy the car for as long as possible before the F30 (and F80, by extension) is retired and the next generation is upon us. It might sound weak, but what can I say. I wasn't sure I could warm up to he W205 looks and did not want to wait only to end up with the M3 anyway.

The rest (speaking about sedans here) are all big unknowns. RS4 sedan is purely theoretical, and engine choice is unknown (I am betting V6). ATS-V is AWOL and also not expected to pack too much heat when it finally arrives. XER is 2016 at best and totally new and unproven. Q50R pricing is a huge question mark. And a new IS-F seems a bit doubtful right now.

For coupes - if you are eyeing the M4 too - the stories from the competitors are similarly cloudy. RC-F is well known, but has crazy looks and is a touch on the heavy side.

If you are in no particular hurry I'd hold out and wait to compare the upcoming competition for sure. It's going to be battle royale and the M3 and M4 both have their work cut out. Ostensibly, the M3 has always had the advantage of being the more complete, more buttoned down, more agile car. But that margin has been whittled away over the years and was paper thin as of last generation. This could be the point now where the tables turn.
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      05-30-2014, 04:31 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevens21234 View Post
So what exactly are the benefits of the M3 over the upcoming Mercedes C63 AMG sedan? The upcoming C63 AMG is still in spec mode.

There's also the Lexus ISF, Audi RS4.

All of these will boast higher HP, Torque and possibly acceleration numbers higher than the M3 with comparable pricing. What is the M3's edge besides brand loyalty and possibly weight?

Thanks!
M3/4 looks much nicer than new ISF or C class...I haven't seen the new Audi but concept looks pretty bad ass. Other than that all others will probably weight more too.
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      05-30-2014, 04:43 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevens21234 View Post
All of these will boast higher HP, Torque and possibly acceleration numbers higher than the M3 with comparable pricing. What is the M3's edge besides brand loyalty and possibly weight?

Thanks!
Well... you didn't mention handling, braking or feel. If you are looking for high HP, torque and acceleration numbers only then there are better and cheaper cars than any you mention.

It's always interesting when people judge a car based on a few specs... most notably HP, torque, 0-60... when that is only ONE aspect of a car and, for many people including those who track their cars, not even the most important characteristic.
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      05-30-2014, 05:17 PM   #9
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Unfortunately, there aren't any true objective measures for handling, braking, or "feel". These are all qualitative. I could come on here and say a corvette "feels" better than a M3, but are there perhaps better quantitative measures? Personally, I definitely feel a M3 will deliver on these soft factors.

It's perhaps why a Porsche outside of brand has such excellent reviews despite also having lower HP and torque numbers. One of the only potential quantitative measures in my mind to perhaps support handling is the power to weight ratio and track times (this more variable than the former) - that's why I'm asking for input.
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      05-30-2014, 06:32 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevens21234 View Post
Unfortunately, there aren't any true objective measures for handling, braking, or "feel". These are all qualitative. I could come on here and say a corvette "feels" better than a M3, but are there perhaps better quantitative measures?
Good point. If you're really torn or open to trying something new, I suggest you drive all the cars you're considering before pulling the trigger.

For example, I was set on buying an E92 M3 and then I drove the LCI C63. The M3 felt a bit lighter had the better transmission. The C63 had better steering feel (heavier, more precise/communicative), noticeably more power/torque, and more powerful brakes. These were my observations.

Exterior styling was a tie. The C63's interior edged out the M3's due to the amazing Recaro seats and thick, flat-bottom, flat-top steering wheel.

If I would've skipped driving the C63, I would've been perfectly happy with the M3.

I'm pretty comfortable with ordering the F80 sight unseen because it has three things I want from a track-capable daily driver: torque, proper brakes, and aggressively bolstered front bucket seats.
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      05-30-2014, 07:00 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ybbiz34 View Post
Good point. If you're really torn or open to trying something new, I suggest you drive all the cars you're considering before pulling the trigger.

For example, I was set on buying an E92 M3 and then I drove the LCI C63. The M3 felt a bit lighter had the better transmission. The C63 had better steering feel (heavier, more precise/communicative), noticeably more power/torque, and more powerful brakes. These were my observations.

Exterior styling was a tie. The C63's interior edged out the M3's due to the amazing Recaro seats and thick, flat-bottom, flat-top steering wheel.

If I would've skipped driving the C63, I would've been perfectly happy with the M3.

I'm pretty comfortable with ordering the F80 sight unseen because it has three things I want from a track-capable daily driver: torque, proper brakes, and aggressively bolstered front bucket seats.
If only you could pick a color, it would do just fine.
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      05-30-2014, 07:03 PM   #12
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M4 will most likely be little lighter. many a more fun track car.

where the AMG is going to have more luxury to it, although will still give the M4 a run for its money.

E92 m3 V8 was more racecar , where the AMG was more muslce car. there engines were different.

now they are both smaller turbo engines. ones a V8 ones a I6. I think the AMG will be faster at least in a straight line.
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      05-30-2014, 07:16 PM   #13
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The AMG last time was faster in a straight line and around the track. I'll be curious to how the W205 pans out.
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      05-30-2014, 08:53 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevens21234 View Post
All of these will boast higher HP, Torque and possibly acceleration numbers higher than the M3 with comparable pricing.
If these are the most important factors for you, then buy an AMG/CTS-V/C7/etc.

M cars were never about simply straight-line speed or impressive power figures.
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      05-30-2014, 10:41 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Jockey View Post
The AMG last time was faster in a straight line and around the track. I'll be curious to how the W205 pans out.
Where did you hear that? All the reviews I saw pegged the E9X BMW M3 as the faster car around a track.


To the OP, I would say you should wait for reviews to come out on all these cars and then decide...there is no use speculating which car is faster or has better handling until journalists, or yourself, can review them.

The RS4 sedan hasn't even been announced yet.
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      05-31-2014, 06:12 AM   #16
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If these are the most important factors for you, then buy an AMG/CTS-V/C7/etc.

M cars were never about simply straight-line speed or impressive power figures.
I don't follow your logic at all.

The C7 isn't simply about those things either. In fact, everything that an M3 is about - except for carrying four or five people in relatively luxurious accommodations - the C7 is even more about. I mean it was designed specifically to trade off only being able to seat two for amping up performance in every other category as compared to a sedan.

And the other two you mention, well the CTS-V is one segment up the chain (M5 or E63 size and weight class), so it's no surprise it won't have the dynamics of cars in the M3's class. And AMG is an entire brand, but in general they are performing on the heels of the equivalent BMW M or in some cases winning in comparisons.

Other than that though, good point?
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      05-31-2014, 06:16 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patronus86 View Post
Where did you hear that? All the reviews I saw pegged the E9X BMW M3 as the faster car around a track.


To the OP, I would say you should wait for reviews to come out on all these cars and then decide...there is no use speculating which car is faster or has better handling until journalists, or yourself, can review them.

The RS4 sedan hasn't even been announced yet.
http://nurburgringlaptimes.com/lap-t...times-top-100/

The M3 did not make it at 8:05.
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      05-31-2014, 09:01 AM   #18
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Where did you hear that? All the reviews I saw pegged the E9X BMW M3 as the faster car around a track.
Common misconception. bimmerj listed the link to the lap times.

Hell, a WRX STi was much faster around the Ring than the M3.
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      05-31-2014, 01:55 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
I don't follow your logic at all.

Other than that though, good point?
The C63 AMG does not offer a manual transmission option or have the same poise on the limit as the M3. So for buyers like me, it's not even an option as a replacement for a M car.

If this is all that matters to you is "HP, torque and...acceleration numbers", the M3/M4 is not the car for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
The C7 isn't simply about those things either. In fact, everything that an M3 is about - except for carrying four or five people in relatively luxurious accommodations - the C7 is even more about. I mean it was designed specifically to trade off only being able to seat two for amping up performance in every other category as compared to a sedan.
The C7's strong aftermarket support for straight-line speed is why I mentioned it. If you are concerned solely with horsepower, torque and acceleration the aftermarket will take care of you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
AMG is an entire brand, but in general they are performing on the heels of the equivalent BMW M
Agreed.
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      05-31-2014, 06:14 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmerj View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jockey View Post
Common misconception. bimmerj listed the link to the lap times.

Hell, a WRX STi was much faster around the Ring than the M3.
Well then it comes down to which tracks you race these cars on. Because numerous auto journalists (Top Gear, Motortrend, Fifth Gear) all did head-to-head comparisons and the BMW was universally declared the winner in terms of lap times.

Motortrend:


Fifth Gear:


Top Gear:


Also, 8:05 is the laptime for the base M3 on the Ring. The C63 AMG Performance Package was quicker by only a few seconds...but I'd be interested in seeing how the M3 Competition package would fare against it.
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      05-31-2014, 08:23 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reid View Post
The C63 AMG does not offer a manual transmission option or have the same poise on the limit as the M3. So for buyers like me, it's not even an option as a replacement for a M car.
See now there you go, something tangible the M3 has over the competition. And it is a good point.

Quote:
If this is all that matters to you is "HP, torque and...acceleration numbers", the M3/M4 is not the car for you.
Ok, but the OP didn't say those things were all that mattered, he just stated that some of the competition offers more power and better acceleration. He didn't say handling wasn't important and I didn't read his post as implying that either.

Clearly there are lots of car that handle, brake, steer very well; these things are the price of entry now for performance vehicles in this price range. Indeed the cars you rattled off all perform well in those areas for their respective segments. And more are coming.
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      05-31-2014, 09:44 PM   #22
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M3 vs C63 - New c63 styling is ugly (IMO), so m3 wins this

M3 vs RS4 - we don't even know if the rs4 will come to the US, and the b9 s4 is a few years away, so another m3 win

M3 vs ISF - do i really have to explain this one lol

m3 wins for me!
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