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      04-13-2014, 10:22 AM   #1
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Possible M4 dilemma

Ladies and gents,

Have been a long time viewer of this forum but seldom have posted anything. I have gone back and forth between BMW and Porsche for the better part of 15yrs. I have been very fortunate to own a variety of 911s including an 86 930, 2K 996 aero, 997GT3, and know a pristine 02 Turbo. Also, I have owned in between those a 97 M3, 2K M-coupe, 02 E46 M3, and an 08 E90 M3. I am in a very good position at this point where I currently own 3 cars, the turbo, an 07 Mazda MX5 hardtop vert, and a new Fiesta ST, which by the way is Ford's best kept secret. I am going to the New York auto show in 2 weeks in hopes of seeing an M3 and M4 in the flesh. I am contemplating ordering an M4 to, at some point, replace the turbo, but am somewhat torn at the proportions of the car. I applaud BMW for attempting to lighten the car for increased driver feel but cant help but remember how the E90 felt. For lack of a better word, the M ness had somewhat been watered down. Adding weight and adding power, doesn't automatically make for a great drivers car. I have no gripes with the turbo I have,in fact, wonder each time I drive it how could I top this, but its not exactly modern in terms of technology. The M4 is very appealing in various ways, but having missed out on ordering a 1 M-coupe, can't help but wonder if the REAL M car might be the future M2.Again, stupid problem/dilemma to have but am curious what the general consensus has to say. For what its worth, the turbo is a very low mileage example, beautiful color combination, and always puts a smile on my face when pressing the throttle. Let me know your thoughts....Sparco
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      04-13-2014, 10:51 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by Sparco View Post
Ladies and gents,

Have been a long time viewer of this forum but seldom have posted anything. I have gone back and forth between BMW and Porsche for the better part of 15yrs. I have been very fortunate to own a variety of 911s including an 86 930, 2K 996 aero, 997GT3, and know a pristine 02 Turbo. Also, I have owned in between those a 97 M3, 2K M-coupe, 02 E46 M3, and an 08 E90 M3. I am in a very good position at this point where I currently own 3 cars, the turbo, an 07 Mazda MX5 hardtop vert, and a new Fiesta ST, which by the way is Ford's best kept secret. I am going to the New York auto show in 2 weeks in hopes of seeing an M3 and M4 in the flesh. I am contemplating ordering an M4 to, at some point, replace the turbo, but am somewhat torn at the proportions of the car. I applaud BMW for attempting to lighten the car for increased driver feel but cant help but remember how the E90 felt. For lack of a better word, the M ness had somewhat been watered down. Adding weight and adding power, doesn't automatically make for a great drivers car. I have no gripes with the turbo I have,in fact, wonder each time I drive it how could I top this, but its not exactly modern in terms of technology. The M4 is very appealing in various ways, but having missed out on ordering a 1 M-coupe, can't help but wonder if the REAL M car might be the future M2.Again, stupid problem/dilemma to have but am curious what the general consensus has to say. For what its worth, the turbo is a very low mileage example, beautiful color combination, and always puts a smile on my face when pressing the throttle. Let me know your thoughts....Sparco
Hold on, someone will be here to shred you to bits shortly.

For what it's worth, I think your right, if your looking for the ultimate ultimate driving machine these days, Porsches do make a point, but I'm not rich enough to buy one. The paper bags I would have to wear in order to come up with the courage to enter the garage would kill my budged.
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      04-13-2014, 11:07 AM   #3
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Hold on, someone will be here to shred you to bits shortly.

For what it's worth, I think your right, if your looking for the ultimate ultimate driving machine these days, Porsches do make a point, but I'm not rich enough to buy one. The paper bags I would have to wear in order to come up with the courage to enter the garage would kill my budged.
Laughing!! Honestly, not trying to wind anyone up. I have equally enjoyed M products as I have Porsche. The new versions of 911s have equally gained weight as well as have gained in price to almost ridiculous levels. For me, I am strictly looking for a drivers car. Again, my opinion on the e90 was that it was more of a touring car, therefore was disappointed shortly thereafter. One of the best drivers cars was the breadvan M-coupe. I cant tell you how enjoyable it was to drive.
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      04-13-2014, 11:20 AM   #4
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Well, that's EU for us. Safety comes from the computers and airbags, the drivers do not need to take responsibility for their decisions anymore. Cars get heavy.

Someone will answer you in more serious manor, I will be hiding behind my coffee cup while they shred me too.
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      04-13-2014, 01:05 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparco View Post
Ladies and gents,

Have been a long time viewer of this forum but seldom have posted anything. I have gone back and forth between BMW and Porsche for the better part of 15yrs. I have been very fortunate to own a variety of 911s including an 86 930, 2K 996 aero, 997GT3, and know a pristine 02 Turbo. Also, I have owned in between those a 97 M3, 2K M-coupe, 02 E46 M3, and an 08 E90 M3. I am in a very good position at this point where I currently own 3 cars, the turbo, an 07 Mazda MX5 hardtop vert, and a new Fiesta ST, which by the way is Ford's best kept secret. I am going to the New York auto show in 2 weeks in hopes of seeing an M3 and M4 in the flesh. I am contemplating ordering an M4 to, at some point, replace the turbo, but am somewhat torn at the proportions of the car. I applaud BMW for attempting to lighten the car for increased driver feel but cant help but remember how the E90 felt. For lack of a better word, the M ness had somewhat been watered down. Adding weight and adding power, doesn't automatically make for a great drivers car. I have no gripes with the turbo I have,in fact, wonder each time I drive it how could I top this, but its not exactly modern in terms of technology. The M4 is very appealing in various ways, but having missed out on ordering a 1 M-coupe, can't help but wonder if the REAL M car might be the future M2.Again, stupid problem/dilemma to have but am curious what the general consensus has to say. For what its worth, the turbo is a very low mileage example, beautiful color combination, and always puts a smile on my face when pressing the throttle. Let me know your thoughts....Sparco

^That`s the main reason for me make a change and go for the Cayman GTS.

I had the luck, opportunity and the right timing to buy a E82 1M, which is by far the best Bimmer I`ve ever driven. ( I can compare to; E46 M3, E92 M3, which are all supertankers compared to a 1M)
The F8X M is growing in size once again (Ok the weight has been put down to 1M territory), but the increased wheelbase won`t make it a very agile car IMHO

The M2 could be the best M as a E82 1M successor, but there are some question marks here;

1 probably it`s a 4IL (Source; Scott27)
2 the wait will take us to 2016

Now that is too long for me, also would like a 6IL.

Given these facts, the Cayman GTS could be the best alternative for now.
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      04-13-2014, 02:35 PM   #6
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I fully agree. When I saw the new M3 and M4 they looked like replacements of yesteryears M5s and M6s while the new M5 feels like an M7. If I could fit my family in a Cayman or preferably a 991 that's what I would do with zero hesitation but for now I'm putting my hopes in that the F80 will be the best driving most entertaining M5 of all times which isn't half bad in my book and yes he M2 should offer the more classic M3 feel and size.
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      04-13-2014, 02:53 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Romo View Post
^That`s the main reason for me make a change and go for the Cayman GTS.

I had the luck, opportunity and the right timing to buy a E82 1M, which is by far the best Bimmer I`ve ever driven. ( I can compare to; E46 M3, E92 M3, which are all supertankers compared to a 1M)
The F8X M is growing in size once again (Ok the weight has been put down to 1M territory), but the increased wheelbase won`t make it a very agile car IMHO

The M2 could be the best M as a E82 1M successor, but there are some question marks here;

1 probably it`s a 4IL (Source; Scott27)
2 the wait will take us to 2016

Now that is too long for me, also would like a 6IL.

Given these facts, the Cayman GTS could be the best alternative for now.
The 1M was the one that got away. I think the GTS cayman will be a terrific car but will be EXPENSIVE. Back in September, I had the opportunity to drive a base cayman and a 997 Carrera S at the Porsche test track in Leipzig, was an eye opener. I honestly think the M4 will be a terrific performing car, really can't wait to drive one. I am just hoping they will have closed the gap to Porsche when it comes to driver involvement. For me Alpine white, black cloth, ceramics, and black 19s should do it, and of course a manual gearbox.
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      04-13-2014, 03:15 PM   #8
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The 1M was the one that got away. I think the GTS cayman will be a terrific car but will be EXPENSIVE. Back in September, I had the opportunity to drive a base cayman and a 997 Carrera S at the Porsche test track in Leipzig, was an eye opener. I honestly think the M4 will be a terrific performing car, really can't wait to drive one. I am just hoping they will have closed the gap to Porsche when it comes to driver involvement. For me Alpine white, black cloth, ceramics, and black 19s should do it, and of course a manual gearbox.
No doubts what so ever an M4 being a terrific sports car, it is just the sheer size that puts me on hold right now.

In my country (famous for ridiculous car taxes based on CO2 emissions) the Cayman GTS cost without options €92K, an M4 base price is €105K

I do not need a big car i.e. 4 seats, I want a small, light and agile car.......
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      04-13-2014, 04:04 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Romo View Post
No doubts what so ever an M4 being a terrific sports car, it is just the sheer size that puts me on hold right now.

In my country (famous for ridiculous car taxes based on CO2 emissions) the Cayman GTS cost without options €92K, an M4 base price is €105K

I do not need a big car i.e. 4 seats, I want a small, light and agile car.......
I just did a power to weight comparison between my 996 turbo and the M4. Based on the weight BMW claims on the website, and how I would option the car, the numbers are very close. The torque figure for the M should really make the car very enjoyable to drive. Performance is relative to what one thinks is fast/quick. Once upon a time, a 0 to 60 time of 5.0 seconds was fast. To think that manufactures have sliced 1.5-2.0 seconds off that time is amazing. Of course with DCT, launch control, etc. these numbers are not hard to duplicate, just hard to imagine one can simply purchase a car that is this capable.
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      04-15-2014, 05:51 PM   #10
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My dilemma as well. Go for the F82 or just wait for the M2...
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      04-15-2014, 06:50 PM   #11
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My dilemma as well. Go for the F82 or just wait for the M2...
Waiting is just so boring!

I wanted my car a month a go, and I removed the calender from the wall cause I just can't take it anymore. Now I'm shopping for a summer car, and I think I just might go all boy racer and Finally buy myself an Impreza... It would suit my roots too, and I would finally kill the itch I've had since the first catastrophic time I drove it.
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      04-15-2014, 08:39 PM   #12
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My dilemma as well. Go for the F82 or just wait for the M2...
When I think of the proportions of the 1 M coupe, they where just about perfect. Looking at the M4 in pictures, videos, etc. just wondering how it will look like up close. Then looking at what some of the rendered photos of the M2 look like, I start saying" THIS IS IT". However, I dont typically wait very long, have no issues pulling the trigger on whatever floats my boat so to speak. I just test drove a very nice, exceptionally low mileage 08 Carrera S. Its a very nice car but honestly, didn't do it for me. I maybe swayed back to BMW, may even consider a euro delivery.
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      04-15-2014, 08:43 PM   #13
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Waiting is just so boring!

I wanted my car a month a go, and I removed the calender from the wall cause I just can't take it anymore. Now I'm shopping for a summer car, and I think I just might go all boy racer and Finally buy myself an Impreza... It would suit my roots too, and I would finally kill the itch I've had since the first catastrophic time I drove it.
Lups,

Your crackin me up. I seriously condsidered an STI prior to purchasing the Fiesta ST. However, a lot more money and really enjoy the ST for what it is, a simple hatchback. I have been very fortunate to have driven down under a scooby at a rally school. Thrilling to say the least
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      04-15-2014, 08:53 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
I fully agree. When I saw the new M3 and M4 they looked like replacements of yesteryears M5s and M6s while the new M5 feels like an M7.
My thoughts exactly, but want I want is a modern E39 M5 so new M3 is what im after.
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      04-15-2014, 10:17 PM   #15
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Lups,

Your crackin me up. I seriously condsidered an STI prior to purchasing the Fiesta ST. However, a lot more money and really enjoy the ST for what it is, a simple hatchback. I have been very fortunate to have driven down under a scooby at a rally school. Thrilling to say the least
My home country is one big rally track, it get really old being over taken by an 80+ year old grandma, so one has to learn. I have said this before, but there is something seriously wrong with my pack of the woods!
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      04-15-2014, 10:19 PM   #16
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Seriously, My 85 year old uncle over took me going 95 km/h on a really tiny road. That was the moment when I decided that I will not go to a family meeting with the kids in my car. My ego was busted big time. I'm still not over this.
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      04-16-2014, 09:13 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparco View Post
When I think of the proportions of the 1 M coupe, they where just about perfect. Looking at the M4 in pictures, videos, etc. just wondering how it will look like up close. Then looking at what some of the rendered photos of the M2 look like, I start saying" THIS IS IT". However, I dont typically wait very long, have no issues pulling the trigger on whatever floats my boat so to speak. I just test drove a very nice, exceptionally low mileage 08 Carrera S. Its a very nice car but honestly, didn't do it for me. I maybe swayed back to BMW, may even consider a euro delivery.
I'd suggest testing an 09-12 S before making that call.
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      04-16-2014, 10:13 AM   #18
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Here's the thing, BMW's are probably still the best luxury sporty cars you can buy. But as a whole I would say all luxury sporty cars over the past decade have become much more dull to drive. The divide between sports car and sporty luxury car, in terms of performance, has REALLY grown. Meanwhile sports cars like Corvettes and GT-Rs and 911s have become very comfortable and very easy to drive on a day-to-day basis through the advancement in damper technology like GM's Magnetic Ride, etc.

As you know, once you drive a car like a 911 or a Cayman and then hop back into a BMW, it really becomes a disappointing experience. Sorry but that is just the facts and those who say otherwise either a) are BMW brand loyalists or b) have not actually driven the sports cars that they say they have driven
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      04-16-2014, 10:44 AM   #19
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Here's the thing, BMW's are probably still the best luxury sporty cars you can buy. But as a whole I would say all luxury sporty cars over the past decade have become much more dull to drive. The divide between sports car and sporty luxury car, in terms of performance, has REALLY grown. Meanwhile sports cars like Corvettes and GT-Rs and 911s have become very comfortable and very easy to drive on a day-to-day basis through the advancement in damper technology like GM's Magnetic Ride, etc.

As you know, once you drive a car like a 911 or a Cayman and then hop back into a BMW, it really becomes a disappointing experience. Sorry but that is just the facts and those who say otherwise either a) are BMW brand loyalists or b) have not actually driven the sports cars that they say they have driven
I do not agree with the bolded portion. Let's use the benchmarks and go back 10 years and take the E46 M3 and the 996 C2S, the E46 could hang with it in a straight-line but did not brake or handle as well. Fast forward to the E92 and 997 and it's exactly the same thing. Sure, sports cars ride has improved but that has come along with them becoming more civilized and less outwardly "fun", mostly due to added size.

Back in the day I owned a 996TT and it was a tremendous car, but as an overall ownership experience I prefer an M3. Most of the handling with the added benefit of less attention and room for 4 and luggage. Of course, for a weekend blast something like a GT3 can not be matched by a super-saloon but it never could be. They experiences are and aways have been different- much of the driving experience is superior in a P but on the other hand their is a certain brutality to the delivery of M cars that many P-cars lack. To be clear, I'm not arguing that an M3 is a more precise tool on a track than a Cayman as it clearly is not.

I appreciate your posts but you do have a habit of stating things as fact (literally) when they are anything but.
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      04-16-2014, 07:27 PM   #20
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I do not agree with the bolded portion. Let's use the benchmarks and go back 10 years and take the E46 M3 and the 996 C2S, the E46 could hang with it in a straight-line but did not brake or handle as well. Fast forward to the E92 and 997 and it's exactly the same thing. Sure, sports cars ride has improved but that has come along with them becoming more civilized and less outwardly "fun", mostly due to added size.

Back in the day I owned a 996TT and it was a tremendous car, but as an overall ownership experience I prefer an M3. Most of the handling with the added benefit of less attention and room for 4 and luggage. Of course, for a weekend blast something like a GT3 can not be matched by a super-saloon but it never could be. They experiences are and aways have been different- much of the driving experience is superior in a P but on the other hand their is a certain brutality to the delivery of M cars that many P-cars lack. To be clear, I'm not arguing that an M3 is a more precise tool on a track than a Cayman as it clearly is not.

I appreciate your posts but you do have a habit of stating things as fact (literally) when they are anything but.

Carl L, Interesting observation and to some degree I tend to agree with you .Currently, I DO own a 996 TT, which even by todays standards with regard to driving FEEL, makes me shy away from modern cars, especially when it comes to steering, quality of the braking system, and power delivery. Here's what has my curiosity, BMW had gone back to a six, with considerably more torque, and have made quite an attempt at lightening the car. Also, they STILL will build the car with a 6-speed gearbox. This, for me, really ticks all the boxes when it comes to bridging the gap to Porsche. I agree with the comparisons of E46 to 996 and E92 to 997. A few years back, I was fortunate enough to own a 997 GT3, which one may consider the ultimate drivers car. At the time, owning a GT3 for the street was somewhat pointless. I ended up selling the car after a year of ownership with no regrets. Fast forward to now, the market for a 7 GT3 and a 6 for that matter, is off the charts. If my ultimate M4, optioned the way I want, does what I think it will do, I'll b ecstatic.
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      04-16-2014, 07:28 PM   #21
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I'd suggest testing an 09-12 S before making that call.
Had thought about an 09 but still cant seem to get that excited.
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      04-19-2014, 07:52 PM   #22
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This is a really great thread with many issues that have been on my mind lately as well. I loved my old E36 M3 and E46 Alpina B3S but felt that even back then there was a tendency for each generation of M-car to be getting larger, heavier more technology-dependent and even a little softer.

I too, am always looking for the most exciting drivers cars and in the past have had two late 90s Stis, an Alfa 147 GTA, 2010 Golf Gti, 2010 Boxtser S, 2012 Renault Megane RS Trophy and now my BMW M135 (which is the spiritual successor to the amazing 1M, with "light" {by BMW standards} body weight and an incredibly powerful and instantly responsive engine).

You mentioned the GTS, which is on my list too, but from what you've said, I wonder if you were struck by the same thing I was - that Porsche too, seems to be getting a little too "GT-ish" for lack of a better word. My Boxtser S was a 2010 and I have to say that I thought the steering feel almost sublime - giving a sensation of connectivity with the car and road that I for one feel is missing from the latest generations of 911/Boxster/Cayman. I think this is also true of the new PDK unit which I find too smooth, and the PASM sports suspension which in my old Boxster was wonderfully tight and communicative in the sport setting, but in the new 911 and Boxtser feel far too soft and luxurious to give that sports car feel. I test drove each, several times trying to convince myself to upgrade, but they just weren't raw or sporty enough and I went the exact opposite direction and got a Renault Megane RS Trophy which has one of the best, most communicative suspension set ups I have ever experienced.

The new Porsches are beautiful cars to look at, and very smooth to drive, but are missing a lot of the rawness and connectivity I felt in my 987 Boxster S. Electric steering, electronic parking brake, start-stop technology, soft and smooth PASM and PDK, is this really the direction Porsche wants to go?

I too, was hoping the GTS model line would be a push back to their roots but as far as I can see, they are just fully optioned S models with a minor 15hp boost.

What they need is something like the Cayman R/Spyder line with a lot of weight savings (and hopefully recalibrated, or better yet, return to hydraulic steering unit).

Though I am discouraged to hear that the M4 has artificially produced engine sound and is still as heavy as the E36/E46 era M3s, I am still very much looking forward to driving it, hoping that the overall package will offer a more agile, connected feel than previous generations. What would be great is if they eventually offered a CSL version like they did with the E46, which I thought was one of the most driving focused M3s of recent years.
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