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      02-21-2014, 01:48 PM   #1
richardg
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CCB using a different brake booster

So I have been on the fence about the whole CCB thing. (This discussion isn't really about that. I know I don't need them for my 2-4 track days a year) I am confident that there will be both aftermarket ccb and steel options for those who opt for the CCB. I hope this hasn't been addressed but I haven't seen this brought up yet.

My question is this? Can we SAFELY replace the CCB in the future with steel rotors since there is likely a chance the CCB system uses a different brake booster than the normal system. I ASSUME because of the "gentler" brake booster in the CCB system there would be less friction on a steel rotor face than what is necessary; and would require more force from your foot to create more pressure between the pad and rotor. I am sure BMW has engineered the CCB to work within certain margins that would be thrown all off.

Also if I am totally wrong then let me know. I am no engineer so I probably sound like an ass. And this is all assuming the F8X uses a different brake booster, which it may not. Nothing has been said about it on that deep of a technical level yet.

Source and reason I think the brake booster is different. Page 19 (section 5.3) on the official CCB technical training guide for the F1XM
http://f10.m5post.com/forums/attachm...2&d=1365008065
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      02-21-2014, 03:22 PM   #2
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First of all, you don't sound like an ass at all

Yes, the brake booster will most likely be different between the CCB and steel brake cars. And most likely so will the brake master cylinder on the F8x. On the F1x the CCB and steel brakes use the exact same caliper with 6 pistons, so the volume of brake fluid needed to move 6 pistons is the same both for CCB and steel. On the F8x on the other hand the steel brakes use a 4 piston caliper whereas the CCB has a 6 piston caliper, requiring a master brake master cylinder with a larger displacement.

However, it's not uncommon for aftermarket brake kits to work well with the std brake booster and master cylinder, even though the bite point and friction is different. BMW has to make a brake system that meets a lot of different customer requirements and can be driven by your aunt Mabel without her hitting the windscreen when she brakes...

The issue you might run into is that the brake booster isn't strong enough to give you a positive/reassuring brake pedal feel if you change from CCB to steel jobbies. But that is also down to the brake pad you use, so you could compensate by using high friction brake pads that wears quicker but provides better braking.

Best bet is to buy a kit from a reputable company such as Brembo, AP etc.
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      02-21-2014, 03:24 PM   #3
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I am really hoping a good replacement set of CCB is 1k or less per rotor by the time I need them. I wouldn't mind spending 4-6k on new rotors if I got 100k out of them with 10-15 track days on them. I am no R's tuning or M-world customer. I wouldn't be beating on them that hard. lol
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      02-21-2014, 07:03 PM   #4
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ZR1 rotors are closer to the $1k/each range, so I'm hoping that's a possibility. I'm still on the fence for the CCB's . . . I want them, but the initial and maintenance cost is a big barrier.
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      02-21-2014, 07:18 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer20 View Post
ZR1 rotors are closer to the $1k/each range, so I'm hoping that's a possibility. I'm still on the fence for the CCB's . . . I want them, but the initial and maintenance cost is a big barrier.
That's good to know, but you're forgetting about the BMW tax + //M tax = bend over and lube up.

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Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
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      02-21-2014, 11:10 PM   #6
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Sometimes I hate the M tax

I wish our cars were secretly cool and no one cared about them but us. Maybe mods would be less lol
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      02-22-2014, 04:25 AM   #7
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Blue callipers...

....CCB is under strong consideration because I am not sure I can live with blue brake callipers.
A pure aesthetics choice but the lower maintenance and lack of brake dust have strong upside; option in UK is £6,500 with no upside in resale value so it is a big choice. Must say I had ceramics on my last 911 and they were brilliant in all situations.
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      02-22-2014, 10:38 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aus View Post
That's good to know, but you're forgetting about the BMW tax + //M tax = bend over and lube up.

.
True. I'd be very surprised if the M3 CCB rotors were that cheap, but the fact is, with the technology moving down market, increasing volumes, and improving technology, they price will start to come down at some point.
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      02-22-2014, 11:15 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
First of all, you don't sound like an ass at all

Yes, the brake booster will most likely be different between the CCB and steel brake cars. And most likely so will the brake master cylinder on the F8x. On the F1x the CCB and steel brakes use the exact same caliper with 6 pistons, so the volume of brake fluid needed to move 6 pistons is the same both for CCB and steel. On the F8x on the other hand the steel brakes use a 4 piston caliper whereas the CCB has a 6 piston caliper, requiring a master brake master cylinder with a larger displacement.
Front calipers are the same. But don't forget that the F1X cars with steelies have a single (or is it double, I don't think so) piston sliding rear calipers
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      02-22-2014, 12:07 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
Front calipers are the same. But don't forget that the F1X cars with steelies have a single (or is it double, I don't think so) piston sliding rear calipers
F1x brake calipers are the same F/R on both brake systems. 6 pot calipers front, 1 pot sliding caliper rear.

From the BMW Technical training manual:

http://f10.m5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=821498

Quote:
The rear brake caliper is identical to the M Compound brake caliper, the size of the brake pads are also the same.
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      02-22-2014, 12:34 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
F1x brake calipers are the same F/R on both brake systems. 6 pot calipers front, 1 pot sliding caliper rear.

From the BMW Technical training manual:

http://f10.m5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=821498
Didn't know that. Cheesy...
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      02-22-2014, 04:09 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
On the F8x on the other hand the steel brakes use a 4 piston caliper whereas the CCB has a 6 piston caliper, requiring a master brake master cylinder with a larger displacement.
Not necessarily. It all depends on the size of the pistons. More pistons does not necessarily mean more volume displaced. For example, opting for the multiple piston M-Performance brakes on the F3X does not require changing the master cylinder.

I don't want to imply that an F8X with iron rotors will have the same master cylinder as an F8X with CCB though, I have no clue about the answer.

Last edited by CanAutM3; 02-22-2014 at 05:16 PM..
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      02-22-2014, 06:32 PM   #13
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I will throw out a data point that, on Porsche 987, the PCCB master cylinder and iron master cylinder are different. More obviously, calipers are also different.

Some guys run the PCCB unit on their iron-rotor cars and claim the pedal feel is superior with the PCCB unit. I have no experience with this; it's merely hearsay. Your mileage may vary.
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      02-22-2014, 08:06 PM   #14
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I have a newbie question.

1. When I see pics of the car I see the yellow and blue calipers...are they the same but just different color?

2. Are the blue and yellow calipers only on the CCB's?...if so, guess I haven't seen any pics of the standard brake calipers yet.
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      02-22-2014, 08:17 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mact3333 View Post
I have a newbie question.

1. When I see pics of the car I see the yellow and blue calipers...are they the same but just different color?

2. Are the blue and yellow calipers only on the CCB's?...if so, guess I haven't seen any pics of the standard brake calipers yet.
Blue callipers = 4 pistons front and 2 pistons rear = Standard iron rotors
Gold (yellow) callipers = 6 pistons front and 4 pistons rear = CCB

Last edited by CanAutM3; 02-22-2014 at 08:34 PM..
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      02-24-2014, 12:24 PM   #16
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So, for what it's worth, I found out LIST PRICE (not dealer price, cost, discounted anything...this is MSRP) on a set of pads and rotors for the M5/6:

Front rotors are $3173 each, rears are right about $3000 each. Front pads are $386.68 for the axle set, rears are $136.80.

Now of course the CCBs are covered under the maintenance plan, but depending on usage you're less likely to need rotors in that period than pads.

There are also, as was mentioned earlier, different part numbers for the brake booster for iron brakes versus CCBs. The brake master cylinder is the same for both.

My parts guys can't see any part numbers for the M3/4 yet, so no pricing on them just yet, but my guess is they'll be noticeably but not significantly cheaper.
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      02-24-2014, 12:36 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OttosBMWBrian View Post
So, for what it's worth, I found out LIST PRICE (not dealer price, cost, discounted anything...this is MSRP) on a set of pads and rotors for the M5/6:

Front rotors are $3173 each, rears are right about $3000 each. Front pads are $386.68 for the axle set, rears are $136.80.

Now of course the CCBs are covered under the maintenance plan, but depending on usage you're less likely to need rotors in that period than pads.

There are also, as was mentioned earlier, different part numbers for the brake booster for iron brakes versus CCBs. The brake master cylinder is the same for both.

My parts guys can't see any part numbers for the M3/4 yet, so no pricing on them just yet, but my guess is they'll be noticeably but not significantly cheaper.
no, they aren't covered.
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      02-24-2014, 12:38 PM   #18
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Where did you get this info? Everything I've heard and read said they are...
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      02-24-2014, 01:39 PM   #19
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Just read into it, looks like they're not, I stand corrected...it's amazing how certain misinformation can seem
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      02-24-2014, 01:59 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OttosBMWBrian View Post
The brake master cylinder is the same for both.
As it should be on the F1x M. It uses the same calipers F/R, so no need for a master cylinder with different displacement.

On the F8x M's there are different calipers for CCB, so it might require a different master cylinder.
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      02-24-2014, 11:55 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OttosBMWBrian
Just read into it, looks like they're not, I stand corrected...it's amazing how certain misinformation can seem
What did you read? My understanding was they were not covered for the first model year but BMW changed their policy and maintenance now covers CCBs.
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      02-26-2014, 08:34 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by signes View Post
What did you read? My understanding was they were not covered for the first model year but BMW changed their policy and maintenance now covers CCBs.
I went to this page on BMW USA and picked a late production MY2014 M5. Says right on page 1 that CCB is one of the exceptions to the maintenance plan.

Do you remember where you heard otherwise?
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