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      08-19-2013, 06:02 AM   #1
JC919
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Dear BMW M Group, some thoughts from a wanker on the new M3

I am an Texan expat living in Scotland and have owned an M3 CSL for almost two months. Prior to this I had a 6MT e92 M3 for about five years and I've got an e39 M5 stashed in a garage in my hometown of Houston, Texas. Added to this my father owns an F10 M5, so I've got a little bit of experience with these cars. To further demonstrate my obsession, relocation to Aberdeen or Singapore were mentioned as possibilities for my promotion, but I focussed on Aberdeen because of the proximity to life affirming roads. The purpose of this thread is a kind of open letter to BMW about what I am looking for in the F80 M3. Also, I just like to hear myself talk.

These are clearly my opinions as someone obsessed with the thrill of driving. It is easy to find problems with the four cars I've referenced, but the following are key issues that need to be addressed in order to make the F8x M3 (also can't be bothered to call one the M4) successful for automotive neanderthals like myself. To me, going fast point to point is a distant second to the involvement of the driver in the whole process. Plus, my occupation and various investements are in an industry that allow me little need to give a **** about fuel economy. Paying for petrol is always money well spent!!

I spent about 36 hours in Houston this past weekend on my way from holiday in Argentina back to Aberdeen. Early on Saturday morning and having cleared the cob web's from the previous night, I decided to give the F10 M5 a good thrashing with several laps of Allen Parkway (central Houston's only decent bit of road). Then, after my arrival in Aberdeen last evening, I took the CSL on a blast down a locally famous bit of road that will go unnamed, but is 14 miles of perfection only 15 minutes from my garage door. Along with my vast experience in the e39 and e92 M cars, I've come to the conclusion that these issues must be corrected for the new era of turbo M3s.

First off, I have never liked DCT. Yes, its fast as **** on track, but in day to day driving it is numb and makes the F10 M5 feel like a 7 series. BMW, if you're going to go flappy then put a properly manic flappy in there. I want that CSL SMG bang for Christ's sake. Some can say that the CSL (or SMG in general for that matter) feels clunky/jerky until you get it going, but IMO it adds to the overall experience in a way that the DCT M3/M5 lack.

Second, the new M5 is ****ing depressing in terms of sound and this is especially confirmed after the first 15 seconds of hopping in the CSL. If AMG can get some decent rasp/gargle out of their turbo'd units then figure out how to add a non-electronic sound track to the new M3 and make it apparent from inside the car. This should be considered as one of the most important elements of a performance car as driving is a visceral experience for the true enthusiast.

Third is steering feel and by this I mean both the ability to read the road, as well as place the car where you want it. I can't recall if it is going to be electronic or not in the F80, so I am just going to loosely base this opinion in terms of the car's weight since it's been quoted to be the same as the e9x. To me, the F10 M5 fealt like a barge, but it got the job done in almost a GT-R-like fashion. Steering feel in the CSL is pretty damn good, maybe not GT3 good, but for something that can haul golf clubs its sublime. Steering feel in my e92 M3 wasn't that great when I bought it and I attribute that to the fact that cars in the segment had become quite chubby and the standard 245s up front. Adjustments to the suspension along with a set of 265/35R18s on lightweight 18x9.5 wheels up front completely transformed the 'feel'. BMW should factor this in from the start.

My conclusion of the F10 M5 is that its blindlingly fast in a straight line and can handle any corner surprisingly well given its heft. You arrive in corners with more speed then you realize because of the lack of sound, so those massive brakes are a god send. The problem with the car is that you practically have to drive it at its limit to have any fun. M3s should be fun both on the road during daily driving and surprisingly quick at the track/fast back road. My e92 M3 was both of these, but then again I had to modify significantly to get it where I was happy.

So what does JC want; to start give me some of that S54 scream along with the surge of boost. Also, if you have to go flappy only then give me more bang during upshift so that I don't confuse it with a chick's 325i. Ability to oppo is an M trait and will surely already be in the mix. The car needs to be a sense of occassion to be truly enjoyable! The S65 delivered that in the last car with the 8200 redline connected to a 6MT. Winding that motor all the way to redline and the subsequent tire squeal when changing up in the first couple gears was pretty entertaining. If BMW's M Group can take these points into account and work in just a hint of inspiration from the CSL (talk about a sense of occasion), then this new car will be a winner.

Oh, and offer a 6MT with the notchiness of the e39 M5's gearbox!!!!!! That box and its ability to oppo on demand are why my e39 M5 will never go up for sale.

Some pics of the cars, because threads without pics are miserable:
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Last edited by JC919; 08-19-2013 at 07:54 AM..
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      08-19-2013, 06:55 AM   #2
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Definitely enjoyed reading this and getting your perspective. You have a lot more performance car driving experience than me so it was nice to see how you interpreted and evaluated the pros and cons of the different BMW vehicles. Let's hope BMW M makes the F82 a winner!
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      08-19-2013, 07:54 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JC919 View Post
I am an Texan...
... allow me little need to give a fuck about fuel economy

some can say that the CSL feels clunky...
...a visceral experience for the true enthusiast.
My 36-year old nephew bought an M3 several years ago, with HP and exhaust upgrade. He has never tracked it. He's more of the "look what I got" type of guy.

Today's M cars are targeted at a broad public, including lots of people that buy an M3 just because they can afford the badge, not because they want the underlying performance.
They're totally not like the CSL type of guys that will prefer 10 lbs of weightsaving over a radio/speaker system. They want luxury, all leather, full stereo, blah blah...

This public allows for more units to be sold. BMW is a commercial company. You do the math.


Feeling your pain and requests for next M, but I fear that's the reality we live in.

Get together enough of Texan millionair enthousiasts to put down a deposit for a F80/F82 CSL, and BMW will consider it
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      08-19-2013, 08:00 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hwelvaar View Post
This public allows for more units to be sold. BMW is a commercial company. You do the math.
I am in total agreement with you here and have long since believed that I am no longer the target market for this car. If BMW offers the new M3 with a 6MT, then I will probably get one for a DD when I return to Houston. However, I will most likely turn to a 997 GT3 of some kind to replace the CSL. I'd also like to run a Caterham for a summer.

Having said all this, it was fun to have a track car in which I could fit a cooler, golf clubs, gear, dog, etc...
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      08-19-2013, 12:44 PM   #5
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What is this unnamed local road with 14 miles of perfection? Mind PM'ing me it? I'm local and would love to check it out with my e92.
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      08-19-2013, 12:55 PM   #6
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Nice post and personal story. A couple of comments:

In my humble opinion in DCT modes S4-S6 the DCT offers quite a bit of power shifting like shifting thump/surge. This relates to part of my love of the M-DCT - it is very customizable offering silky smooth near torque converter levels of operation and then back to power shifting thumps as the press of a button. The software here is a key contributor to its customization. Let's not also forget that fast shifts and power shifts are not only fun, but significantly increase real world performance. I expect the next generation M-DCT will be even better than the current one.

Also - the E9X S65s redline is 8400 not 8200
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      08-19-2013, 01:31 PM   #7
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My number one problem with the new M cars are sound. So I agree with you on that.
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      08-19-2013, 04:37 PM   #8
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Nice inputs! You don't understand how jealous I am of your CSL and your roads over there. I am hoping the M3/M4 will be an absolute delight to drive as well!
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      08-19-2013, 05:10 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drewdogg808 View Post
What is this unnamed local road with 14 miles of perfection? Mind PM'ing me it? I'm local and would love to check it out with my e92.
You are local in Aberdeen? B/c there are many.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Also - the E9X S65s redline is 8400 not 8200
And you are crazy! I only ever ran mine to 8235.9187829er because I didn't want to blow the flux capacitor.
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      08-19-2013, 05:58 PM   #10
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Summery: my family loves bmw. I love fast n exciting bmw. Make shit happen please.

On the side note I completly agree w manual gear box. They should make shifts feel more direct. And god please do something about clutch travel and engagement point. Its worse than a civic.
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      08-19-2013, 06:49 PM   #11
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Nice, but you're aiming your letter at the wrong audience. You need to aim it at "M car customers". Unless they change M group won't change a thing.

I am going to make some broad generalisations, so bear with me.

All automotive manufacturers do is target groups they can make the most money out of. They don't have some kind of humanitarian goal of making us feel good, unless it sells more product. M group's customers are, in general, older and wealthier males. From their car these people want, in general, a status symbol to represent their success, a car that is very fast (on paper), and also has every creature comfort including power everything, high end stereo, big wheels, etc. They demand a high end car that is also a comfortable, reliable and easy-to-use daily driver.

Go to a BMW launch or dealership function and peruse the demographic of the attendees and you'll see what I mean.

Purists like many of us on these forums demanding notchy gearboxes, manual transmissions, lighter weight wheels, lightweight seats etc etc are such a small minority of M-car buyers that IMO BMW would lose money by the fistful if they went after us with specific products. Imagine the uptake for a bare-bones stripped-out M3 a la the GT3 RS.... they would never get payback on it. It would do fantastically in the magazine reviews, then a tiny number of people would buy it.

So until the demands of the customer base changes, M group won't change their recipes.
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      08-19-2013, 09:19 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlos_Danger View Post
Yes, car are indeed developed using target markets which usually are not the guys that would track their car, but you haven't discovered nothing new, what they need to do is keep making things like the CSL, cars like the AMG black editions, for people that have the money AND the need for a good track car not a status symbol
I couldn't agree more....the more of these types of cars the better. What I was saying is that the car makers respond to what we buy, not the other way round. If everyone started buying Caterhams, Ariels, KTMs etc (to use an extreme example), you can be sure BMW would launch a super-light high performance track car in very short order.
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      08-20-2013, 02:32 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Carlos_Danger View Post
Also im a middle-upper class guy who was on vacation to Argentina, and i also have an e39 M5 stored up, im that cool, and im entitled to a whole car company meeting my demands
Yeah, because I was totally under the assumption that a thread on some forum would get the attention of the people designing the car. Maybe you would prefer that I go about making threads about installing helladope mods, low profile tires and matte paint on these cars. Or perhaps I will just return to the for sale section in case someone pops up a cheap deal on a used Breitling that will make me look less middle class.

Eat a dick asshole and don't forget to make that M5 payment.
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Last edited by JC919; 08-20-2013 at 03:14 AM..
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      08-20-2013, 10:14 AM   #14
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Lol clam down big man. to be honest your thread has no value to other individuals. just sounds like you wanted to brag about your life.
If you wanted to chime in on what new M should be, you could've done it less cocky.
Judging from your wording above, you just sound like typical M3 owner "top gear" mentioned about lol
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      08-20-2013, 10:43 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JC919 View Post
You are local in Aberdeen? B/c there are many.



And you are crazy! I only ever ran mine to 8235.9187829er because I didn't want to blow the flux capacitor.
Sorry, reading comprehension fail on my part. After the 3 days in Houston (where I'm local and roads are pretty flat and straight), I missed the part where you arrived back in Aberdeen.
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      08-20-2013, 12:39 PM   #16
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I'd ease up on the insults and profanity here or the thread will be closed by mods... Just my 2 cents...
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      08-20-2013, 12:51 PM   #17
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Great selection of cars. Look forward to building my own in the future.

How has the trip to Argentina. Heading to Panana in two weeks to start a new company out there. Was looking into BMW security vehicles if things go well.
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