[noflash]

Since they are the same engine I am thinking that aftermarket software and a CAI will get the performance pretty close to that of the 330i.

I have SW and CAI from Dinan for my 328i (E46). I like Dinan b/c it doesn't void your warranty.

I'll bet Dinan could do the job, but do you think BMW would hold them back?

I mean, if this is doable (and it seems it should be) BMW wouldn't want you saving all that money. A 330i from the price of a 325i and $1000 in Dinan mods -- sounds great to me.

Think it'll happen?

[E90Fleet]

I hink it will lcost you more to upgrade it than to just buy the 330i

Most tuners have never worked with Valvetronic, so they will take a long time to learn

[RichReg]

Originally Posted by noflash

Since they are the same engine I am thinking that aftermarket software and a CAI will get the performance pretty close to that of the 330i.

I have SW and CAI from Dinan for my 328i (E46). I like Dinan b/c it doesn't void your warranty.

I'll bet Dinan could do the job, but do you think BMW would hold them back?

I mean, if this is doable (and it seems it should be) BMW wouldn't want you saving all that money. A 330i from the price of a 325i and $1000 in Dinan mods -- sounds great to me.

Think it'll happen?

Dude, where are you getting $1000 from?? It already takes about $2500 in parts and labor just to get an extra 10 to 15hp out of the E46 330i. There's no way its gonna be cheap or easy.

[marcus330i]

There is no way it makes sense to mod a 325 to "save $$" vs the 330. You've got to be a hobbiest to think this way....certainly not an accountant.

[RichReg]

Originally Posted by marcus330i

There is no way it makes sense to mod a 325 to "save $$" vs the 330. You've got to be a hobbiest to think this way....certainly not an accountant.

Exactly...getting parts at wholesale and installing them yourself is one thing, but many of us can't accomplish that too easily. Couple this with the fact that each new generation of engines become more and more difficult to modify (ie -Valvetronic?.....good luck) and you've got more of a project than its worth.

[Mark]

well, im gonna disagree, i think with an intake+cpu combination (about 500$) you'll have a nice setup similar to the 330i, if not better (assuming some of the real chip experts like AA, customchip, Jim Conforti, etc etc.. put something nice out).. Then with another 500-1000$ you can get a differential fully installed.

After all is said and done I could see you having 330i level of performance if not even more, if the 330i itself has a somewhat restrictive/safe intake system.

Since the car has the same displacement, cams, pistons, etc etc.. I dont see why not. To me its all a question of weather the chiptuners can extract the restrictions from the engine...

of course the 330i comes with so many features as standard, that if you were going to get a fully loaded 325i, then maybee its worth it to go for a 330, but if you want to get a stripped car, get a 325i in my book, you'll get that thing up to speed very easily

[RichReg]

Originally Posted by MarkE90M3

well, im gonna disagree, i think with an intake+cpu combination (about 500$) you'll have a nice setup similar to the 330i, if not better (assuming some of the real chip experts like AA, customchip, Jim Conforti, etc etc.. put something nice out).. Then with another 500-1000$ you can get a differential fully installed.

After all is said and done I could see you having 330i level of performance if not even more, if the 330i itself has a somewhat restrictive/safe intake system.

Since the car has the same displacement, cams, pistons, etc etc.. I dont see why not. To me its all a question of weather the chiptuners can extract the restrictions from the engine...

of course the 330i comes with so many features as standard, that if you were going to get a fully loaded 325i, then maybee its worth it to go for a 330, but if you want to get a stripped car, get a 325i in my book, you'll get that thing up to speed very easily

Sure, but that's assuming that they can somehow bypass Valvetronic just by re-programming the ECU. Also, the last time I checked with Dinan, you needed an exhaust as well, and altogether that only gave you about 10 percent more hp on an E46 325, if you were lucky.

[RedStripe]

My heart tells me, "I sure hope so"

My head tells me, "Is it possible, most likely. Will it be easy, economical, or cost effective for a 325i owner to want more of a 330i type performance, most likely NOT."

[Tierfreund]

Originally Posted by RichReg

Sure, but that's assuming that they can somehow bypass Valvetronic just by re-programming the ECU. Also, the last time I checked with Dinan, you needed an exhaust as well, and altogether that only gave you about 10 percent more hp on an E46 325, if you were lucky.

You can´t "bypass" valvetronic. Without valvetronic there is no mixture getting into the chamber and therefore no combustion. It´s not an addon but replaces the throttle body completely with variable valve lift.

Good luck programming an ECU for that baby. There´s more way to go wrong on that one than an elphant in a china shop.

I´ve never believed in serious power increases by chip and intake on the E46. Most were by seat of the pants only. So thinking you could increase the performance of an E90 325 to 330 level at any reasonable cost (i.e. less than byuing an 330 in the first place) seems unlikely.

[Mark]

Originally Posted by RichReg

Sure, but that's assuming that they can somehow bypass Valvetronic just by re-programming the ECU. Also, the last time I checked with Dinan, you needed an exhaust as well, and altogether that only gave you about 10 percent more hp on an E46 325, if you were lucky.

Welll, regardless of what Dinan says (they like to sell stuff , the exhaust is not really a source of powerloss, the new exhaust systems from BMW are quiet and efficient, the main reason to put an exhaust on your car is for sound, not performance.

As for valvetronic, once the BMW coding language is cracked, there shouldn't be any problem for tuners. At the very very least, you could set the valvetronic/cam settings on the 325i to the same settings as a 330i, and who knows there may possibly be room in there for more improvement. But at the least, since the engines are identical you could put the same code in and get the same engine management... So voila, not so difficult for a chip tuner. Don't be afraid of all these fancy words and technology, anything on a car can be modified.

325i+Chip+intake+differential = 330i

Ps, dont look at what was done on the E46 as a comparison.. the M52TU/M54 in those cars was pretty much pushed to where it can go.. this is a whole new engine with a new ballgame. And think about it this way, the M54 2.5l was up to 185hp, the 3.0l has 215hp, you think only 30hp can be had from a 0.5l bump in displacement ? This is still all theory, but im willing to bank alot of money that a 325 can be brought up to a 330i level of performance fairly easily.

[Tierfreund]

True. It´s all still theory. And I´m notoriously one of those "glass is half empty" skeptics.

We´ll just see. I´d still not advise anyone to buy a 325 in hopes of finding a cheaper way to 330 performance. There might be a catch in the 325 configuration that BMW put in there precisly to make an upgrade to 330 performance financially unviable.

[E90Fleet]

Well

The intake of the 330i alone is more than 600 euro's, and its active, so you need a controller for it which the 325i doesnt have

The diff is over 800 Euros

And then you are sitting with a 228mm Clutch instead of the 330i's 240mm clutch

[RichReg]

Originally Posted by MarkE90M3

Welll, regardless of what Dinan says (they like to sell stuff , the exhaust is not really a source of powerloss, the new exhaust systems from BMW are quiet and efficient, the main reason to put an exhaust on your car is for sound, not performance.

As for valvetronic, once the BMW coding language is cracked, there shouldn't be any problem for tuners. At the very very least, you could set the valvetronic/cam settings on the 325i to the same settings as a 330i, and who knows there may possibly be room in there for more improvement. But at the least, since the engines are identical you could put the same code in and get the same engine management... So voila, not so difficult for a chip tuner. Don't be afraid of all these fancy words and technology, anything on a car can be modified.

325i+Chip+intake+differential = 330i

Ps, dont look at what was done on the E46 as a comparison.. the M52TU/M54 in those cars was pretty much pushed to where it can go.. this is a whole new engine with a new ballgame. And think about it this way, the M54 2.5l was up to 185hp, the 3.0l has 215hp, you think only 30hp can be had from a 0.5l bump in displacement ? This is still all theory, but im willing to bank alot of money that a 325 can be brought up to a 330i level of performance fairly easily.

Hmmmm....
you raise some interesting points, Mark. I guess I can see what you are saying about the E46 engines already being maxxed out. I do know that my manual 323Ci with the Dinan package (intake, software & exhaust) is the same or quicker than a 328, but it does NOT reach E46 330 levels of performance. Can barely keep up with a 330i Step, all the while shifting vigorously. Even Dinan's package for the E46 325 doesn't allow THAT engine to match the E46 330, and I remember asking them about it. And none of those parts were too cheap, either. Per their website, Dinan's differential for my car costs about $1300, without installation.

I know Conforti's stuff is supposed to give a bit more "oompf" than the others, or at least that's what I heard. But I also remember that none of his REALLY effective stuff was available in the beginning, not for years, and I got my 323Ci LATE in the model year.

So the question now becomes: Can all of the parts we have mentioned, past or present, be eventually re-designed & combined at a reasonable cost to "awaken" the 325, given its new technology? Good question, but I think we'll have to wait, and it could be a long one at that...

[noflash]

Dude, that's about how much my CAI and chip cost from Dinan (installed).

Also, on the whole saving issue:

A 330i lease is $725/month right now.

A 325i with sport, cold weather, and Xenons can be had for less than $450 (depending on tax, down payment, etc.).

I am leaning toward the later and hoping for an aftermarket upgrade in year to keep things fun.

The economical 325i -> 330i mod is gonna happen. You can't stop the tuners!!

[Mark]

Originally Posted by RichReg

Hmmmm....
you raise some interesting points, Mark. I guess I can see what you are saying about the E46 engines already being maxxed out. I do know that my manual 323Ci with the Dinan package (intake, software & exhaust) is the same or quicker than a 328, but it does NOT reach E46 330 levels of performance. Can barely keep up with a 330i Step, all the while shifting vigorously. Even Dinan's package for the E46 325 doesn't allow THAT engine to match the E46 330, and I remember asking them about it. And none of those parts were too cheap, either. Per their website, Dinan's differential for my car costs about $1300, without installation.

I know Conforti's stuff is supposed to give a bit more "oompf" than the others, or at least that's what I heard. But I also remember that none of his REALLY effective stuff was available in the beginning, not for years, and I got my 323Ci LATE in the model year.

So the question now becomes: Can all of the parts we have mentioned, past or present, be eventually re-designed & combined at a reasonable cost to "awaken" the 325, given its new technology? Good question, but I think we'll have to wait, and it could be a long one at that...

you are still comparing apples to oranges here. Dinan isnt that special of a tuner first off they are more of a designer tuner in my mind, they charge lots of money for a "dinan" namebrand, but nothing they make is as good as what the better tuners have out on the market. They take Fikse wheels, rebrand them and sell them at an even higher price. They take koni shocks, rebrand them and sell it as a 'dinan stage x suspension', sure there takes alot of thought to match it to a specfic car, but there are alot of aftermarket tuners out there putting out alot better stuff.

But back to the point, its no surprise dinan (or anyone) can't make an E46 325i perform at a level of a 328i or a 330i... no surprise... its because the E46 325i has 2.5l of displacement with the 328i having 2.8l, etc etc..

whereas in this case the E90 325i has the same displacement as an E90 330i, with the same engine, just different external bits to slow it down, a different intake system, software, and differential.. Parts that are easily changed. The best analogy is to look at old formula1 cars with the restrictor plates on them, thats pretty much what BMW has done to the 325i.

Whether its cost effective to do it is a whole other ballgame, some people will try to walk into a BMW parts department and pay full msrp on parts and then it will cost way too much, others can get a just as good part from a wrecked 330i and it will be cost effective.

All i'm saying is that a 325i can be brouight up to a 330i level if not better, and very easily. mark my words

[Ian]

Then there's poor saps like me waiting for the sport wagon, which apparently will only be a 325(x)i. I can only hope there are solutions from the aftermarket since BMW won't send us their best wagons.

[SiR]

I guess the people that want 330i performance in their 325i is missing the whole point. You going to say you dont care for those 11" smallish rotors. Straight power is all you want. Kind of defeats the purpose of having a BMW.

There is a lot of things from the 30i then just power and brakes, we all know that.

[RichReg]

Originally Posted by noflash

Dude, that's about how much my CAI and chip cost from Dinan (installed).

Also, on the whole saving issue:

A 330i lease is $725/month right now.

A 325i with sport, cold weather, and Xenons can be had for less than $450 (depending on tax, down payment, etc.).

I am leaning toward the later and hoping for an aftermarket upgrade in year to keep things fun.

The economical 325i -> 330i mod is gonna happen. You can't stop the tuners!!

I can't explain why the lease figures are different, but I do know that an equivalently optioned 325 vs a standard 330 equals about a $4K difference.

As far as the tuners go, the questions that remain are WHEN? and HOW MUCH (dollars or hp)?

[noflash]

Originally Posted by RichReg

I can't explain why the lease figures are different, but I do know that an equivalently optioned 325 vs a standard 330 equals about a $4K difference.

The money factor is high (whatever that is). I have heard from this board and from the dealer that the factor and, therefore, the lease will be lower after June 2.

Originally Posted by RichReg

As far as the tuners go, the questions that remain are WHEN? and HOW MUCH (dollars or hp)?

I'd bet within a year we will have more tuning options than we know what to do with. Software for the E46 runs $350-400. Even if the SW for the E90 is $450-500 it should still be some worthwhile bang for the buck.

Also, a cold air intake isn't rocket science. I'll bet thise start showing up in a few months. [$100-$600]

[34Three]

I'd rather not roll the dice on mods...penny wise and pound foolish especially when you consider that a 330i has legitimate performance on the vehicle title.

Even if you mod your 325i you're not going to see it on the back end. Molested cars send negative images to perspective buyers...so at least your extra $5-6K maybe $2.5-3k after STD options are priced is baked into the vehicle value legitimately. Mods are sunk costs that you'll have a hard time getting back down the road.

Get a loan and do it right!!

[noflash]

Originally Posted by 34Three

I'd rather not roll the dice on mods...penny wise and pound foolish especially when you consider that a 330i has legitimate performance on the vehicle title.

Even if you mod your 325i you're not going to see it on the back end. Molested cars send negative images to perspective buyers...so at least your extra $5-6K maybe $2.5-3k after STD options are priced is baked into the vehicle value legitimately. Mods are sunk costs that you'll have a hard time getting back down the road.

Get a loan and do it right!!

Well, to each his own, but...

Dinan mods do not affect warranty or resale value. Now, you might not get much for a CAI and s/w, but go look and see how much a Dinan-supercharged X5 goes for.

Also, there are Dinan Certified vehicles.

Lastly, many mods are easy to undo -- software included. $400 for a Shark Injection is not much. And in a few years if you FEEL you need to remove it to sell your car it is a simple a the push of a button. No harm done. You spent $400 on a few years of slightly faster fun!

[CC 330i]

I agree, to each his/her own, but for me the 330i was just too compelling.

First of all, there are the bigger brakes, the extra power (on my car right now, from the factory, fully covered under warranty), Logic 7 sound system standard, bigger wheels standard with sport package, resale value... etc.

There is no question in my mind that you could get the 325i up to 255 hp with aftermarket mods, but that begs the question: how much horsepower could you get from a 330i with aftermarket mods? I'll bet Dinan will sell plenty of performance parts for 330i's too. And I don't care how good the aftermarket engineering is, it will never be as good as factory engineering for durability and overall driveability. And just because the 325i has the same displacement as the 330i, it doesn't mean that the rest of the engine internals will be the same. There could be more than just intake differences. (lighter pistons and valves, for example).

Remember, BMW makes Formula 1 engines too, but they don't last for 100,000 miles. They only last a few races at best. Heavily modded engines don't last as long as ones designed by the factory to last for 100,000+ miles either. Bottom line is, speed costs money, and sometimes that money will be spent in the form of a blown engine. Modding out that 325i will likely void your powertrain warranty, and any problems that do arise will become your fault, even if it turns out that your engine problems are happening to everyone else and we all get new engines under warranty.