[sickem]

All,

I tried my best to keep this short but I wanted you to have as many facts as possible before you chime in.

Here is the punchline and I'll go into details below. I found a plug in the summer tire of the car I bought CPO (from a BMW dealer, obviously) in June when I was changing to my snow tires last week. I informed the dealer of this. Dealer is refusing to replace the tire. I know the car's previous owner and he confirms he had the tire plugged by a third party. Keep in mind also that BMW's policy is that they will not plug RFTs. They advise you to buy a new tire entirely, hence a plug in an RFT would be outside acceptable specs to be sold at a BMW dealer. I called BMWNA and they said to escalate with the dealer's mgmt first and then come back to them if they don't recommend a remedy (I only spoke to the salesman who supposedly ran it by his boss, the sales mgr). I have a call in to said sales mgr and am waiting to hear back.

Now for a few more details:
- the car had a pre-existing certification...meaning it was not certified by the dealer I bought the car from but the CPO warranty is good until 5/2012.

-I did know the pre-existing cert. at the time I bought the car but didn't understand that there might be differences in the coverage and none were conveyed to me...in hindsight I should've balked at this because I guess this means the car didn't go through any kind of inspection! Rookie mistake, I admit. (First bimmer I bought was brand new.)

- They are using this fact of a pre-existing certification as the basis for why they won't replace the tire.

- Before I purchased the car, I noticed that the drivers side rear tire had a bubble in the side. I pointed it out and they replaced the tire straight away.

I don't see how the last bullet point and my issue now are materially different, other than my amount of leverage. In both instances the tire was damaged and would not be up to spec to be sold as a CPO BMW. Obviously the crux of this is the pre-existing cert, but I don't see that they have a leg to stand on given the rationale for replacing the first tire. Can anyone chime in? Thank you in advance for taking the time to read it and your responses.

sickem

[Express]

are you saying the dealer should replace the tire?

i don't feel they should. you could have very well have put the nail in that tire.

the couple hundred dollars is not worth the stress... just find a new/used tire.

[sickem]

Originally Posted by express705

are you saying the dealer should replace the tire?

i don't feel they should. you could have very well have put the nail in that tire.

the couple hundred dollars is not worth the stress... just find a new/used tire.

thanks. I mentioned in there that I know the previous owner and he confirms that he plugged the tire not long before trading the car in...I realize it is not worth a lot of stress and I am not really stressed about it...but right is right in my mind. it is worth a bit of effort not to go spend $400.

[Tom K.]

Interesting question. But it seems to me that the tire bubble was a defect which was then properly rectified before you took delivery. However since the plug was apparently done after the CPO certification and doesn't materially affect the tire's utility, I can't see the selling dealer's responsibility to replace it. While BMW will not repair a RFT since they don't know whether there has been internal damage, some (but not all) tire manufacturers allow such a repair if the tire has been inspected and found to be structurally sound.

Now if the selling dealer knew of the plug before selling it to you....

Tom

[krhodes1]

Originally Posted by Tom K.

Interesting question. But it seems to me that the tire bubble was a defect which was then properly rectified before you took delivery. However since the plug was apparently done after the CPO certification and doesn't materially affect the tire's utility, I can't see the selling dealer's responsibility to replace it. While BMW will not repair a RFT since they don't know whether there has been internal damage, some (but not all) tire manufacturers allow such a repair if the tire has been inspected and found to be structurally sound.

Now if the selling dealer knew of the plug before selling it to you....

Tom

I would say that even if they did know, it doesn't matter. The selling dealer was NOT the one certifying the car for CPO. CPO only means that at the time of sale, in theory the car met a set of standards, and a new warranty contract was issued.

At most, the selling dealer had an obligation to ensure that the car passed whatever safety inspection the State requires, and that is about it - it is a used car. OP is being rather ridiculous, IMHO.

[sickem]

Originally Posted by Tom K.

Interesting question. But it seems to me that the tire bubble was a defect which was then properly rectified before you took delivery. However since the plug was apparently done after the CPO certification and doesn't materially affect the tire's utility, I can't see the selling dealer's responsibility to replace it. While BMW will not repair a RFT since they don't know whether there has been internal damage, some (but not all) tire manufacturers allow such a repair if the tire has been inspected and found to be structurally sound.

Now if the selling dealer knew of the plug before selling it to you....

Tom

Hey Tom,

Just to clarify (I know there's a lot of info in my post...) there was no certification done between finding the bubble in first tire and when I actually purchased the car. The car had the certification before I ever even laid eyes on it. The first time I looked at it, I pointed out the bubble and then they replaced it before I actually bought it. I certainly can't prove and am not suggesting that they knowingly sold me the car with the plug. It just sort of confirms my fear that they never even gave the car a proper inspection. It could be, but I can't prove that so I am not accusing them of that.

While I agree that a tire can be plugged and be fine, it is outside BMW's specifications, which in my mind should preclude them from selling a car with such damage. Thanks for your input.

[sickem]

Originally Posted by krhodes1

At most, the selling dealer had an obligation to ensure that the car passed whatever safety inspection the State requires, and that is about it - it is a used car. OP is being rather ridiculous, IMHO.

I don't think it is ridiculous to have an expectation that a car you are purchasing is up to an acceptable level of manufacturer-imposed specifications. A damaged tire is outside those constraints. I didn't buy this car from Smitty's Automotive Emporium...it was a CPO car from a BMW Center.

[SpeedBuggy]

I have had three run flats repaired in the past, one on a Continental Contisport All Seasons and two of our Bridgestone Potenza summer tires and every tire dealer I talked to stressed the fact the tire needs to be patched, not plugged. I had been lucky enough to notice that the tire was low and that we did not drive on the tire in a flat condition. The only thing that I got was mixed reviews on what happens to the speed rating of the tire once it has been flat/repaired. I also prefer that my tires, even traditional radials be patched, not plugged. I also have purchased used Bridgestone Summer Tires that have been patched and have not had any problems whatsoever.

I don't know if you have an argument with the dealer on this, but if anything, maybe check with the tire dealers in your area about plug versus patch on a run flat

[sickem]

Originally Posted by SpeedBuggy

I have had three run flats repaired in the past, one on a Continental Contisport All Seasons and two of our Bridgestone Potenza summer tires and every tire dealer I talked to stressed the fact the tire needs to be patched, not plugged. I had been lucky enough to notice that the tire was low and that we did not drive on the tire in a flat condition. The only thing that I got was mixed reviews on what happens to the speed rating of the tire once it has been flat/repaired. I also prefer that my tires, even traditional radials be patched, not plugged. I also have purchased used Bridgestone Summer Tires that have been patched and have not had any problems whatsoever.

I don't know if you have an argument with the dealer on this, but if anything, maybe check with the tire dealers in your area about plug versus patch on a run flat

thanks. that is good to know; I wasn't aware of the difference. I used the term "plugged," but I suppose it's possible it was patched...can you tell by looking at it externally? I still think it's a moot point as either option is not up to spec for a CPO vehicle.

[krhodes1]

Originally Posted by sickem

I don't think it is ridiculous to have an expectation that a car you are purchasing is up to an acceptable level of manufacturer-imposed specifications. A damaged tire is outside those constraints. I didn't buy this car from Smitty's Automotive Emporium...it was a CPO car from a BMW Center.

You did not buy a CPO car from a BMW dealer. You bought a used car that happened to come with a previous CPO warranty from a BMW dealer. I would agree with you had you been the actual CPO buyer of the car, but you weren't. The dealer you bought the car from had no special contractual obligation when selling that car just because it happened to already have a CPO warranty on it. If you had noticed the plug before you purchased the car, then I could see making replacing the tire a condition of sale, but too late now.

As a aside, the only issue with a properly repaired tire is that most tire manufacturers void the speed rating. Which is not terribly relevant in a country where the highest legal speed is only 85mph.

[NoMods]

Man up and quit blaming others. Damn you 99%.

[sickem]

Originally Posted by armoredsaint

Man up and quit blaming others. Damn you 99%.

I hope you're just kidding?

[sickem]

Originally Posted by krhodes1

The dealer you bought the car from had no special contractual obligation when selling that car just because it happened to already have a CPO warranty on it.

I think your other points make sense, but for the above I don't think you're in a position to make this determination...I will let BMW NA do that.

Originally Posted by krhodes1

As a aside, the only issue with a properly repaired tire is that most tire manufacturers void the speed rating. Which is not terribly relevant in a country where the highest legal speed is only 85mph.

You are assuming that the tire was repaired properly. Neither of us can know that. Also, there are roads in Montana and elsewhere with no speed limits But seriously, this certainly is an issue for tracking the car, which I may consider doing on occasion in the spring/summer of next year.

[Express]

sorry that some people tell you what you don't want to hear, but it really isn't worth stressing yourself out over a couple hundred dollars.

you drive a fucking bmw.

[sickem]

Originally Posted by express705

sorry that some people tell you what you don't want to hear, but it really isn't worth stressing yourself out over a couple hundred dollars.

you drive a fucking bmw.

I assure you that you are more stressed about this than I am since you seem to find the need to curse at me. I could take a dump on $400, it's the point behind it that I am concerned about as I may buy CPO cars again in the future and want to know what the actual right answer is.

I am not sure where you've gotten the impression I have a problem with people telling me what I don't want to hear. I some cases, I think their logic is flawed and I am pointing that out. It's called a discussion. Since your post was basically redundant from the first one but for cursing at me why don't you get lost?

[SpeedBuggy]

Originally Posted by sickem

thanks. that is good to know; I wasn't aware of the difference. I used the term "plugged," but I suppose it's possible it was patched...can you tell by looking at it externally? I still think it's a moot point as either option is not up to spec for a CPO vehicle.

I would think, depending if the "plug" is located between the treads or in the "groove" you maybe able to see a tailing of plug.

I know on my 330i I can see the area that was patched because there is a slight blemish in the tire left by the screw that was in the tire and I know where it was located. The other tires on our 325i, the hole was small enough that you cannot see where the it was located. As a side note, I drive 20,000 to 22,000 miles a year and never have had as many flats in any of my traditional radials as we have had in these run flats. I have had three run flats repaired in the last three years compared to that many on my traditional radials over the last dozen years or so.

I would verify if I have a plug or patch, you indicated you know the previous owner. If in fact it is patched, I personally would not worry about, hell with the low amount of mileage we get out of these tires, you will probably need to buy tires before you ever have a problem with the patch or plug.

[Express]

Originally Posted by sickem

I assure you that you are more stressed about this than I am since you seem to find the need to curse at me. I could take a dump on $400, it's the point behind it that I am concerned about as I may buy CPO cars again in the future and want to know what the actual right answer is.

I am not sure where you've gotten the impression I have a problem with people telling me what I don't want to hear. I some cases, I think their logic is flawed and I am pointing that out. It's called a discussion. Since your post was basically redundant from the first one but for cursing at me why don't you get lost?

well then, let me point out the flaw in your post.

i dont care about your tires. pay the money for a new one, and get over it.

life goes on. if you don't like my posts, you are free to add me to your block list.

have a great holiday.

[sickem]

Originally Posted by express705

well then, let me point out the flaw in your post.

i dont care about your tires. pay the money for a new one, and get over it.

life goes on. if you don't like my posts, you are free to add me to your block list.

have a great holiday.

I thought I told you to get lost? man, there's always one troll in every thread...

[sickem]

Originally Posted by SpeedBuggy

I would think, depending if the "plug" is located between the treads or in the "groove" you maybe able to see a tailing of plug.

I know on my 330i I can see the area that was patched because there is a slight blemish in the tire left by the screw that was in the tire and I know where it was located. The other tires on our 325i, the hole was small enough that you cannot see where the it was located. As a side note, I drive 20,000 to 22,000 miles a year and never have had as many flats in any of my traditional radials as we have had in these run flats. I have had three run flats repaired in the last three years compared to that many on my traditional radials over the last dozen years or so.

I would verify if I have a plug or patch, you indicated you know the previous owner. If in fact it is patched, I personally would not worry about, hell with the low amount of mileage we get out of these tires, you will probably need to buy tires before you ever have a problem with the patch or plug.

thanks for your help. it sounds like a plug. It is in the groove and at first I thought it was just something like a pebble jammed in the groove so I started gently prying until I realized what it must be, then I stopped.

It is probably fine, and as you pointed out these tires don't last forever but I also think there is a larger issue here...this car was posted in the CPO section on the dealer's website so despite what troll express705 says I think this practice of an existing certification is misleading the consumer. Now maybe a $400 tire isn't a big deal in the grand scheme but I am looking at the larger picture and wanted to tap into the extensive knowledge on here to see if anyone has encountered this. There are also a lot of people who work at dealerships on here so I thought they might chime in. Heck, I wonder if BMW would frown upon this practice or pre-existing cert? When I called BMWNA the guy I spoke to had never heard of this arrangement.

your comments are appreciated,
sickem

[Express]

Originally Posted by sickem

I thought I told you to get lost? man, there's always one troll in every thread...

i thought there had to be at least one

[Tom K.]

Originally Posted by sickem

Also, there are roads in Montana and elsewhere with no speed limits But seriously, this certainly is an issue for tracking the car, which I may consider doing on occasion in the spring/summer of next year.

Not any more. Montana briefly flirted with returning to "Reasonable and Proper" on some rural highways for a few years after the national 55 limit was lifted but then went to a fixed limit (now 75 mph, IIRC). But even when "R&P" was in force, the state posted signs saying "Yes, Virginia, Montana has a speed limit." warning drivers that it was the police who were interpreting R&P.

However, if you will be tracking the car, I'd replace the repaired tire.

Tom

[sickem]

Originally Posted by Tom K.

Not any more. Montana briefly flirted with returning to "Reasonable and Proper" on some rural highways for a few years after the national 55 limit was lifted but then went to a fixed limit (now 75 mph, IIRC). But even when "R&P" was in force, the state posted signs saying "Yes, Virginia, Montana has a speed limit." warning drivers that it was the police who were interpreting R&P.

However, if you will be tracking the car, I'd replace the repaired tire.

Tom

Ok, pretty sure my brother was in big sky a few yrs ago on some highways without spd limits...the threat of game on the roads will keep u honest tho...