Worst Part of the BMW Lease Experience

pharding · 04-20-2007, 08:55 AM

Without a doubt the worst part of acquiring a new BMW is the leasing experience. BMWFS is great to deal EXCEPT during the purchase process. They will not answer any questions about the lease numbers or the math. They politely refer the loyal BMW enthusiast to discuss that with the dealer. The dealer typically obfuscates about how the lease numbers are arrived at because they know that the math is extremely complicated and that the typical customer would never check the math. The result even with a reputable dealer are higher monthly payments even if you agree that that you as the customer are getting the "BMWFS buy rate". BMW Enthusiasts on this web site and others always evaluate the deal based upon dollars over invoice. But the big difference in any lease deal is in the lease itself and how the numbers are both input and calculated. On my first lease in 2001 for a Euro Delivery 530 I negotiated a reasonable deal only to get screwed on the lease. The residual in their calculations was incorrectly based upon ED MSRP. The car was turned in the US so the residual should have been based upon US MSRP. The difference over the life of the lease was approximately $2,500! I complained repeatedly to BMW FS about this and I was politely ignored. It was only after I posted on every BMW Enthusiast message board that they finally sent a letter to dealers to crack down on what was a universal scam in Chicago area dealers and probably elsewhere. They directed the dealers to calculate residual value based upon US MSRP and Euro Del MSRP. Did I get my money back? No. They claimed that they could not do anything about it. On my fourth BMW lease I am still going through the mud wrestling with dealers to get the "buy rate" with the current 5 series owner loyalty incentive and clear math to check their numbers. BMW FS is doing their usual "we can't help you just work out the math with the dealers who are trying to maximize their profit". The best tool that I have found is Lease Wizard software but it is still a big struggle to deal with BMW dealers to do the math in a transparent manner.

My patience with BMW is wearing thin. Including the current transactions being negotiated I and my business have paid for 6 BMW leases since 2001. If I can't be treated better this time around I am going to shift over to MB or Audi. I have better things to do than debate lease numbers with BMW dealers.

Cookiemonster · 04-20-2007, 09:15 AM

Car dealers have massive lobbyist in Washington DC. They are seperate from the automobile company. That is why the automobile MFGR. is limited in what they say as far as price and numbers. That is why so many people complain about dealers and it seems nothing ever gets done from the MFGR.. Its the same with all MFGR's. Car Dealers are seperated from the MFGR. They keep this seperation with laws that protect them by having lobbyist in DC to make sure the legistrative branch of our government keeps it that way. So BMW , Benz or a Chevy they are all the same because they are Car Dealers and are protected by the same legistration. I suggest you find a dealer you can work with. Some are slimy and dishonest some are great and honest. When I went to the dealer he was upfront on cost and the MF. Its all the dealer not the MFGR.!

LI E90 · 04-20-2007, 09:18 AM

my CA was very upfront. He knew right away that I had researched the heck out the car I wanted. I went in and said I want xxxxx and I will pay xxxx I know the money factor is xxx and the residual is xxxx, lets make a deal. It took all of 15 minutes.

I have leased through Chrysler, Acura(American Honda Financial) and Infiniti(Nissan motor Credit) and I have to say BMW was by far the easiest transaction so far.

Dr_Dirt · 04-20-2007, 09:21 AM

last night I saw some BMW sales guy that caters to selling on this forum that. There might a sticky about it.

Rt66er · 04-20-2007, 09:28 AM

Yes, this seems to be part and parcel of the "car shopping experience." My worst experience was with a Pontiac dealer on a "SmartBuy" GTO. I knew what the numbers should be going in. His initial payment was almost $150 per month more than it should have been. When I exhibited my calculations, he suddenly "realized" his mistake and corrected to match my numbers within $1. Fact is, if you don't take the time to educate yourself, then you are at their mercy. BMW is no different; still a car dealer. FWIW, my latest lease deal with my local BMW dealer matched my numbers on the first try. Go figure. No, seriously.... go figure. That's your best defense.

Revlis · 04-20-2007, 10:48 AM

I've never had more fun at dealership spending money than I did picking up my new 335.

The transaction was transparent for the most part and with some guidance from patient folks here I had a very comfortable deal worked out. I know the beginning the middle and the end. What's missing?

If you feel your dealership is being shady find a different dealership. My Sales Manager, Finance Guy, and CA all were very helpful and upfront. We Sat down at a terminal in the managers office and played the numbers game until I had a payment I was happy with.

Painless. BMW of Seattle.

SteveMD · 04-20-2007, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pharding

Without a doubt the worst part of acquiring a new BMW is the leasing experience. BMWFS is great to deal EXCEPT during the purchase process. They will not answer any questions about the lease numbers or the math. They politely refer the loyal BMW enthusiast to discuss that with the dealer. The dealer typically obfuscates about how the lease numbers are arrived at because they know that the math is extremely complicated and that the typical customer would never check the math. The result even with a reputable dealer are higher monthly payments even if you agree that that you as the customer are getting the "BMWFS buy rate". BMW Enthusiasts on this web site and others always evaluate the deal based upon dollars over invoice. But the big difference in any lease deal is in the lease itself and how the numbers are both input and calculated. On my first lease in 2001 for a Euro Delivery 530 I negotiated a reasonable deal only to get screwed on the lease. The residual in their calculations was incorrectly based upon ED MSRP. The car was turned in the US so the residual should have been based upon US MSRP. The difference over the life of the lease was approximately $2,500! I complained repeatedly to BMW FS about this and I was politely ignored. It was only after I posted on every BMW Enthusiast message board that they finally sent a letter to dealers to crack down on what was a universal scam in Chicago area dealers and probably elsewhere. They directed the dealers to calculate residual value based upon US MSRP and Euro Del MSRP. Did I get my money back? No. They claimed that they could not do anything about it. On my fourth BMW lease I am still going through the mud wrestling with dealers to get the "buy rate" with the current 5 series owner loyalty incentive and clear math to check their numbers. BMW FS is doing their usual "we can't help you just work out the math with the dealers who are trying to maximize their profit". The best tool that I have found is Lease Wizard software but it is still a big struggle to deal with BMW dealers to do the math in a transparent manner.

My patience with BMW is wearing thin. Including the current transactions being negotiated I and my business have paid for 6 BMW leases since 2001. If I can't be treated better this time around I am going to shift over to MB or Audi. I have better things to do than debate lease numbers with BMW dealers.

You think this is any different to leasing a Benz or Audi? Dealers love 99% of lease customers because said customers have little or no clue what a lease is.

Most people get screwed on leases because they have no idea of the process, the terminology and the calculation not because the dealer or BMWFS is avoiding full disclosure.

This forum and just about every other car forum on the intrawebs is full of threads like "Hey, how much a month for your car lease", clearly indicating to me anyway that the author is ignorant of how to do a lease. Why ask when you can calculate it yourself?

If you shop simply by the monthly payment, you will get shafted.

Maybe I was lucky but I dictated what my MF and price out the door was to be via email. My payment was exactly as I had calculated and I didn't step foot in the dealership until the day of delivery.

epiphone3 · 04-20-2007, 11:10 AM

your lease concerns are nothing to do with BMW... it is the dealerships. They don't call them Stealerships for nothing... it won't be better anywhere else you go, regardless of brand.

enlightenment · 04-20-2007, 11:25 AM

Instead of blaming the dealers for your lack of knowledge, why don't you learn how leases work. Do a little research on the matter and THEN go to the dealer and negotiate. Here's a good place to start: Roadfly Financing and Leasing Forum.

Poke around there and learn about money factors and residual values. Then look up the math at how these money factors are used to get your monthly payment. It is not the dealers responsibility to teach you math. If you go to the dealer with this knowledge in hand and ask the right questions you will know how far off or close they are to a reasonable price.

As SteveMD mentioned above, try dealing with the fleet department via email. That's how i negotiate most of my purchases. Less time wasted and you can get great prices. Alternatively, i paid $30 to fleetrates.com and to my surprise actually got a great deal. You can bypass that and just call the fleet department yourself though and most likely get pretty close.

SteveMD · 04-20-2007, 11:35 AM

Ditto. Nail down three things: the cost of the car, the MF and the aquisition fee.

Once you have done that, the payment is fixed in stone no matter if you calculate it online, on the back of an envelope, with a calculator or an abacus.

edspilot · 04-20-2007, 11:52 AM

Pay Cash and be done with it.

Lassaxi · 04-20-2007, 12:36 PM

I'm confused here- the OP seems to be blaming BMWFS for things that the dealer did wrong. You don't negotiate a lease with BMWFS, you negotiate with the dealer. The dealer has a financing arrangement with BMWFS available to them, but they are allowed to charge more than BMWFS charges them and they can pocket the difference- that's called profit. BMWFS was exactly right when they said that.

Upstate328 · 04-20-2007, 12:46 PM

I agree with LI E90 and Dr Steve. I researched the car, options, MSRP, invoice, MF and put together what I was comfortable with in an e-mail. I was respectful to add what I thought was a fair profit over invoice, sent them what I would pay at signing and per month, and they called back that afternoon and accepted it. So I'm totally happy because I got my price. If you go into a deal expecting the dealer to walk away with nothing for their efforts, then they will treat you with the same disrespect.

dkbimmer · 04-20-2007, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveMD

Ditto. Nail down three things: the cost of the car, the MF and the aquisition fee.

Once you have done that, the payment is fixed in stone no matter if you calculate it online, on the back of an envelope, with a calculator or an abacus.

When my wife leased her Volvo we went into the dealer and immediately talked about the "monthly" payment not knowing how the dealer would come up with the number. That was our first big mistake. At the end we got the car and we thought we did okay. But we would never really know if it was a good deal of not.

When I did my lease for the new 335i (on the boat, Liberty, heading to SC right now

) I searched and searched these forums and learned alot. I didn't become a lease expert but I certainly know a lot more now.

My CA and I agreed on the price of the car first before I placed the order. We couldn't set the lease at the time of the order since my PCD date would be over 60 days later. I went back once the PCD date was set and worked on the lease. He showed me what aquisition fee and MF markups he was using (he knew I did a lot of research). So, at the end, the monthly payment was no big surprise. These forums really helped me. It took some time to understand everything but it was well worth it.

Now I continue to wait for June 8...

dkbimmer · 04-20-2007, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Upstate328

I agree with LI E90 and Dr Steve. I researched the car, options, MSRP, invoice, MF and put together what I was comfortable with in an e-mail. I was respectful to add what I thought was a fair profit over invoice, sent them what I would pay at signing and per month, and they called back that afternoon and accepted it. So I'm totally happy because I got my price. If you go into a deal expecting the dealer to walk away with nothing for their efforts, then they will treat you with the same disrespect.

I totally agree. If you respect the dealer, most likey they will do the same.

SteveMD · 04-20-2007, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Upstate328

I agree with LI E90 and Dr Steve.

Not a doctor (well...I tell my wife I'm a doctor of love baby!!)

I live in MD and my name is Steve. Seemed like a good idea at the time. I may put in for a name change to match my other BMW board names.

vs60r · 04-20-2007, 02:06 PM

Yah, blame your dealer and stop generalizing. One of the dealers tried to screw with me on my lease numbers, so I went to another who was straight up and up and was completely transparent in terms of what MF and such I am getting. They did a full print out from their terminal of exactly what went into the calculations and matched almost exactly (diff of one cent) to the numbers I had based on info from this and other boards...

04-20-2007, 08:55 AM	#1
pharding Major 308 Rep 1,128 Posts Drives: 23 Audi Q4 e-tron + 14 X3 28i Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Chicago iTrader: (0)	Worst Part of the BMW Lease Experience Without a doubt the worst part of acquiring a new BMW is the leasing experience. BMWFS is great to deal EXCEPT during the purchase process. They will not answer any questions about the lease numbers or the math. They politely refer the loyal BMW enthusiast to discuss that with the dealer. The dealer typically obfuscates about how the lease numbers are arrived at because they know that the math is extremely complicated and that the typical customer would never check the math. The result even with a reputable dealer are higher monthly payments even if you agree that that you as the customer are getting the "BMWFS buy rate". BMW Enthusiasts on this web site and others always evaluate the deal based upon dollars over invoice. But the big difference in any lease deal is in the lease itself and how the numbers are both input and calculated. On my first lease in 2001 for a Euro Delivery 530 I negotiated a reasonable deal only to get screwed on the lease. The residual in their calculations was incorrectly based upon ED MSRP. The car was turned in the US so the residual should have been based upon US MSRP. The difference over the life of the lease was approximately $2,500! I complained repeatedly to BMW FS about this and I was politely ignored. It was only after I posted on every BMW Enthusiast message board that they finally sent a letter to dealers to crack down on what was a universal scam in Chicago area dealers and probably elsewhere. They directed the dealers to calculate residual value based upon US MSRP and Euro Del MSRP. Did I get my money back? No. They claimed that they could not do anything about it. On my fourth BMW lease I am still going through the mud wrestling with dealers to get the "buy rate" with the current 5 series owner loyalty incentive and clear math to check their numbers. BMW FS is doing their usual "we can't help you just work out the math with the dealers who are trying to maximize their profit". The best tool that I have found is Lease Wizard software but it is still a big struggle to deal with BMW dealers to do the math in a transparent manner. My patience with BMW is wearing thin. Including the current transactions being negotiated I and my business have paid for 6 BMW leases since 2001. If I can't be treated better this time around I am going to shift over to MB or Audi. I have better things to do than debate lease numbers with BMW dealers. __________________ 23 Audi Q4 e-tron; 23 i4 M50 on order 14 X3 Retired: 20 Tesla Model 3 LR AWD; 17 540i x; 14 550i Euro Del; 11 550i Euro Del; 08 550i Euro Del; 06 330i Euro Del; 04 545i Euro Del; 01 530i Euro Del
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04-20-2007, 09:15 AM	#2
Cookiemonster Captain 16 Rep 791 Posts Drives: 2010 335XI e92 Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Jupiter iTrader: (2)	Car dealers have massive lobbyist in Washington DC. They are seperate from the automobile company. That is why the automobile MFGR. is limited in what they say as far as price and numbers. That is why so many people complain about dealers and it seems nothing ever gets done from the MFGR.. Its the same with all MFGR's. Car Dealers are seperated from the MFGR. They keep this seperation with laws that protect them by having lobbyist in DC to make sure the legistrative branch of our government keeps it that way. So BMW , Benz or a Chevy they are all the same because they are Car Dealers and are protected by the same legistration. I suggest you find a dealer you can work with. Some are slimy and dishonest some are great and honest. When I went to the dealer he was upfront on cost and the MF. Its all the dealer not the MFGR.!
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04-20-2007, 09:18 AM	#3
LI E90 Colonel 131 Rep 2,086 Posts Drives: E90 Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Long Island iTrader: (2)	my CA was very upfront. He knew right away that I had researched the heck out the car I wanted. I went in and said I want xxxxx and I will pay xxxx I know the money factor is xxx and the residual is xxxx, lets make a deal. It took all of 15 minutes. I have leased through Chrysler, Acura(American Honda Financial) and Infiniti(Nissan motor Credit) and I have to say BMW was by far the easiest transaction so far. __________________ 2013 MB C300 4matic 2014 Ford Explorer Ltd 1973 Jeep Commando
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04-20-2007, 09:21 AM	#4
Dr_Dirt Major 62 Rep 1,476 Posts Drives: E90 335i 6AT Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: DFW iTrader: (1)	last night I saw some BMW sales guy that caters to selling on this forum that. There might a sticky about it.
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04-20-2007, 09:28 AM	#5
Rt66er Private First Class 10 Rep 111 Posts Drives: 335i Coupe Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Arcadia, Oklahoma iTrader: (0)	Yes, this seems to be part and parcel of the "car shopping experience." My worst experience was with a Pontiac dealer on a "SmartBuy" GTO. I knew what the numbers should be going in. His initial payment was almost $150 per month more than it should have been. When I exhibited my calculations, he suddenly "realized" his mistake and corrected to match my numbers within $1. Fact is, if you don't take the time to educate yourself, then you are at their mercy. BMW is no different; still a car dealer. FWIW, my latest lease deal with my local BMW dealer matched my numbers on the first try. Go figure. No, seriously.... go figure. That's your best defense. __________________ 335i Coupe ~ Space Gray ~ Black 'ette ~ ZSP ~ Step w/paddles ~ Gray Poplar trim
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04-20-2007, 10:48 AM	#6
Revlis Now With 33% MORE Sarcasm Free! 157 Rep 3,462 Posts Drives: M4 i3 X3 Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Phoenix AZ iTrader: (0)	I've never had more fun at dealership spending money than I did picking up my new 335. The transaction was transparent for the most part and with some guidance from patient folks here I had a very comfortable deal worked out. I know the beginning the middle and the end. What's missing? If you feel your dealership is being shady find a different dealership. My Sales Manager, Finance Guy, and CA all were very helpful and upfront. We Sat down at a terminal in the managers office and played the numbers game until I had a payment I was happy with. Painless. BMW of Seattle. __________________ A BMW is Just a Car, it doesn't make you smart, handsome, clever, better, cool, or wealthy.
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04-20-2007, 11:10 AM	#8
epiphone3 Lieutenant Colonel 111 Rep 1,772 Posts Drives: 2013 BMW X3 35i Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Calgary iTrader: (0)	your lease concerns are nothing to do with BMW... it is the dealerships. They don't call them Stealerships for nothing... it won't be better anywhere else you go, regardless of brand.
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04-20-2007, 11:25 AM	#9
enlightenment Private First Class 5 Rep 140 Posts Drives: Z4 ///M Coupe AW/IR Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Calabasas, CA iTrader: (1)	Instead of blaming the dealers for your lack of knowledge, why don't you learn how leases work. Do a little research on the matter and THEN go to the dealer and negotiate. Here's a good place to start: Roadfly Financing and Leasing Forum. Poke around there and learn about money factors and residual values. Then look up the math at how these money factors are used to get your monthly payment. It is not the dealers responsibility to teach you math. If you go to the dealer with this knowledge in hand and ask the right questions you will know how far off or close they are to a reasonable price. As SteveMD mentioned above, try dealing with the fleet department via email. That's how i negotiate most of my purchases. Less time wasted and you can get great prices. Alternatively, i paid $30 to fleetrates.com and to my surprise actually got a great deal. You can bypass that and just call the fleet department yourself though and most likely get pretty close.
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04-20-2007, 11:35 AM	#10
SteveMD Colonel 196 Rep 2,485 Posts Drives: 2016 F10 535i MSport Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Raventown! iTrader: (3)	Ditto. Nail down three things: the cost of the car, the MF and the aquisition fee. Once you have done that, the payment is fixed in stone no matter if you calculate it online, on the back of an envelope, with a calculator or an abacus. __________________ 2006 E90 330i (retired) 2009 E90 335i (retired) 2012 E70 X5 50i M Sport (retired) 2016 F10 535i M Sport
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04-20-2007, 11:52 AM	#11
edspilot Private First Class 7 Rep 145 Posts Drives: Looking Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: WV iTrader: (0)	Pay Cash and be done with it. __________________ 2012 535i xDrive Citation Bravo Jet Past: 1976 C-182 Past: 2005 R22 Beta II Past: 2006 330i
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04-20-2007, 12:36 PM	#12
Lassaxi Major 10 Rep 1,035 Posts Drives: April ED - E90 328xi Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Boston iTrader: (0)	I'm confused here- the OP seems to be blaming BMWFS for things that the dealer did wrong. You don't negotiate a lease with BMWFS, you negotiate with the dealer. The dealer has a financing arrangement with BMWFS available to them, but they are allowed to charge more than BMWFS charges them and they can pocket the difference- that's called profit. BMWFS was exactly right when they said that. __________________ May 3, '07European Delivery, Redelivered on 6/11/07 - Monaco Blue/Beige, Steptronic, ZPP, ZCW, PDC, iDrive/Navi with RTTI, Logic 7, Xenons, HD Radio
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04-20-2007, 12:46 PM	#13
Upstate328 Private 1 Rep 66 Posts Drives: Monaco Blue 328i Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Clifton Park, NY iTrader: (0)	I agree with LI E90 and Dr Steve. I researched the car, options, MSRP, invoice, MF and put together what I was comfortable with in an e-mail. I was respectful to add what I thought was a fair profit over invoice, sent them what I would pay at signing and per month, and they called back that afternoon and accepted it. So I'm totally happy because I got my price. If you go into a deal expecting the dealer to walk away with nothing for their efforts, then they will treat you with the same disrespect.
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04-20-2007, 02:06 PM	#17
vs60r Private 2 Rep 95 Posts Drives: 335i Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Boston iTrader: (1)	Yah, blame your dealer and stop generalizing. One of the dealers tried to screw with me on my lease numbers, so I went to another who was straight up and up and was completely transparent in terms of what MF and such I am getting. They did a full print out from their terminal of exactly what went into the calculations and matched almost exactly (diff of one cent) to the numbers I had based on info from this and other boards...
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