[AlanQS]

Last week the car wouldn't start at mid-day. Although the battery isn't in great shape, the engine turned pretty normally but it wouldn't fire. It was -14c so that might have had a little bearing on the condition of the fuel.

Tried to start it the next day - only -10c and although it started there was a loud screeching from under the bonnet so I stopped; - possibly the alternator belt.

So, it went in yesterday for these problems and, at last, I got a new battery out of them which means that comfort access, the clock, the trip meter and the heated rear screen now actually work for the first time in a few weeks. They "sorted" the nearside headlamp washer which was protruding a bit (despite a full bottle of BMW stuff in the tank).

This morning ( -8c) the washer is protruding again and when I start the car, there is a horrible whine from under the rear of the car and the engine cuts out when the engine is revved. - Fuel pump I guess.

No improvement later and the wife's car is stuck behind mine in the single drive so no one is going anywhere. Manage to get it out the drive on tickover but can't get it back in because some revs are required for the slope. Left on road. Call BMW assist. Quite good so far, he is out to me in half an hour. Agrees with frozen pump diagnosis and lets it tickover for about 10 minutes. It is still whining but he is able to rev the engine - for about a minute then back to it's normal sulk.

BMW have just 'phoned to say the car will be picked up at 2.00pm - great service so far - but the original service guy who came out isn't sure what the policy towards frozen fuel pumps is. In other words, there is a possibility that I will be charged for a new fuel pump because a frozen pump isn't BMW's problem (possibly).!

If this turns out to be true, this is worse than the cracked wheel carry-on because there's not a lot a driver can do to affect a fuel pump.

I'm already fuming but let's wait and see if there is any truth to the rumour. Anything like that ever happened to any of you?

Edit: Curiously, the technician who came out first asked me where I got my fuel and he asked, Morrison? He seemed slightly surprised when I said Shell all the time.

[G82Dude]

That's not good!

Let's hope BMW don't sell their cars in countries where it gets really cold then. Oh, but they do! They will no doubt blame the diesel supplier for not using the appropriate additives, although I am pretty sure there is a limit with diesel and the cold...

[Shadow]

Originally Posted by uke92dude

That's not good!

Let's hope BMW don't sell their cars in countries where it gets really cold then. Oh, but they do! They will no doubt blame the diesel supplier for not using the appropriate additives, although I am pretty sure there is a limit with diesel and the cold...

(adapted from a post someone else made on DW)

The specification for UK diesel road fuel is BS EN 590:2009, and the important bit is the Cold Filter Plug Point (CFPP) – the temperature at which a standard fuel filter begins to block (with wax crystals forming in the fuel).

EN 590 has 5 classes, A - F) plus an additional 5 classes of ‘Arctic’ or extreme climate (0 to 4). UK Winter Grade is Class F, with a CFPP of -15degC - you'll have noticed that it's been getting that cold overnight now, and wind chill can easily drop the temperature 10degC below the air temperature.

Scandinavia, parts of Germany, Alpine France, Switzerland etc use one the Arctic classes depending on climate - these go down to -44degC in the most extreme case.

UK - wrong sort of snow, wrong sort of grit, wrong sort of tyres, now the wrong sort of fuel. We weren't very prepared for this, were we?

[m1bjr]

And that assumes no water content

[dxb335d]

Oh no mate!

[kaishang]

Originally Posted by Shadow

(adapted from a post someone else made on DW)

The specification for UK diesel road fuel is BS EN 590:2009, and the important bit is the Cold Filter Plug Point (CFPP) – the temperature at which a standard fuel filter begins to block (with wax crystals forming in the fuel).

EN 590 has 5 classes, A - F) plus an additional 5 classes of ‘Arctic’ or extreme climate (0 to 4). UK Winter Grade is Class F, with a CFPP of -15degC - you'll have noticed that it's been getting that cold overnight now, and wind chill can easily drop the temperature 10degC below the air temperature.

Scandinavia, parts of Germany, Alpine France, Switzerland etc use one the Arctic classes depending on climate - these go down to -44degC in the most extreme case.

UK - wrong sort of snow, wrong sort of grit, wrong sort of tyres, now the wrong sort of fuel. We weren't very prepared for this, were we?

Correct, except that wind chill is only applicable to humans or other heat producing objects. No matter how great the wind speed, it can't cool anything below the air temperature; so for fuel and cars, -15C is -15C independent of wind, when humans walk outside windy -15C can feel like a still -25C.

[Shadow]

Originally Posted by kaishang

Correct, except that wind chill is only applicable to humans or other heat producing objects. No matter how great the wind speed, it can't cool anything below the air temperature; so for fuel and cars, -15C is -15C independent of wind, when humans walk outside windy -15C can feel like a still -25C.

Yes, sorry - wind chill is not applicable; that was sloppy of me!

[AlanQS]

Give that man a coconut?

Wind chill can only bring inanimate objects down to ambient temperature more quickly, and not below it.

[AlanQS]

The Dealer has 'phoned to tell me that BMW have told them there is nothing wrong with the fuel pump and the stalling, squealing etc. is normal and anticipated as a result of the conditions in which it was trying to operate. Their suggestion is that I use winter grade diesel!

The Dealer is not happy with this at all and has portable heaters under my car to return it to a reasonable operating temperature and they will let me know how they get on.

So let's get this right. BMW don't give you a fuel pump suitable for Norwegian winters but expect you to buy diesel suitable for Norwegian winters. Great! I have never even seen a winter grade diesel advertised. Have you?

[Shadow]

Originally Posted by AlanQS

So let's get this right. BMW don't give you a fuel pump suitable for Norwegian winters but expect you to buy diesel suitable for Norwegian winters. Great! I have never even seen a winter grade diesel advertised. Have you?

I think the idea is that the refinery alters the composition of the base diesel to match the weather - so as long as your filling station is reasonably busy and you fill up once a month or more, you'll get winter or summer diesel as appropriate. People have problems if they only buy fuel once a year (some farmers, for example) and get summer diesel that they try to use in the winter.

Is it possible that the injectors are blocking, or is this unlikely at the pressures the fuel pump runs at? Fingers crossed when your car warms up it'll be OK.

My 330D has been sat outside for 4 days without me trying to start it (no need to go anywhere!). I'm now wondering if that was such a good idea. Got a full tank of BP Ultimate so hopefully no problems with ice / condensation in the fuel, but still.

[G82Dude]

Originally Posted by Shadow

UK - wrong sort of snow, wrong sort of grit, wrong sort of tyres, now the wrong sort of fuel. We weren't very prepared for this, were we?

It seems, on balance, we're not very prepared for anything in this country...

[G82Dude]

So there is ONE advantage to a petrol engine after all?!? Well, assuming it's got antifreeze in the coolant!

[AlanQS]

I haven't put fuel in it since the end of October so if the distributors change the fuel for winter, I haven't had any yet. Oops!

[kaishang]

Originally Posted by AlanQS

I haven't put fuel in it since the end of October so if the distributors change the fuel for winter, I haven't had any yet. Oops!

Uhh? How much do you drive?

[Dr Dave]

What a terrible situation you're in from BMW. Sounds like the dealer half knows what he's on about.

My car has been outside in temps of -9 since Friday and it started and ran fine. So should yours.

[AlanQS]

Well, it didn't move for over two weeks from the end of November and it's spent three days so far this month in the Dealer's so I've only done four hundred miles in November and December. Being out of work tends to reduce the mileage as well.

[Shadow]

Originally Posted by Dr Dave

My car has been outside in temps of -9 since Friday and it started and ran fine. So should yours.

Not if it's got the wrong temperature grade of diesel in it, it won't...

[Shadow]

Originally Posted by AlanQS

I haven't put fuel in it since the end of October so if the distributors change the fuel for winter, I haven't had any yet. Oops!

Hmmm. You SHOULD be OK :

The Motor Fuel (Composition and Content) Regulations 1994
(from legislation.gov.uk):

(4) Subject to the provisions of these Regulations, no person shall, during a period beginning on 10th September in any year and ending on 15th March in the following year, distribute diesel fuel which—

(a) does not comply with the winter diesel fuel requirement; and

(b) is for use within the United Kingdom.

[kaishang]

Originally Posted by Shadow

The Motor Fuel (Composition and Content) Regulations 1994
(from legislation.gov.uk):

(4) Subject to the provisions of these Regulations, no person shall, during a period beginning on 10th September in any year and ending on 15th March in the following year, distribute diesel fuel which—

(a) does not comply with the winter diesel fuel requirement; and

(b) is for use within the United Kingdom. :

What the hell? How does anyone know this off the top of their head?!?!?

[Shadow]

Originally Posted by kaishang

What the hell? How does anyone know this off the top of their head?!?!?

They don't! They search for it on http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ (yes, I'm bored!)

[AlanQS]

Thanks for that. Very useful. I have the car back now and it's running fine but whilst it was -3c at the Dealer's place in Glasgow, at my home, it's already -9c.

I'll make sure the car is used daily and see what happens to the diesel. They actually took the pump out the car and it was full of "gel" which I assume means slushy diesel.

[F31-340i]

Al,

If this might cost you money, I'd :

A take a sample of diesel and put it in the freezer - I'm guessing summer stuff should be buggered/gelled at -17, but winter should be ok. Take a photo.
B check your credit cards to see where you filled up
C challenge them with the above legislation and suggest you have evidence they filled your car with 'illegal' summer diesel - show photo/credit card receipt. You may need to ask the forecourt for a proper company regional rep or something (the forecourt staff won't necessarily be gen'd up)
D see what happens.