Manual Transmission Red Light

TahoeOG · 02-05-2007, 06:44 PM

Hey guys did some searching on clutch and manual transmission but couldn't quite find what i was looking for. I tried google.com but a bunch or example with 4 speed manuals and 5 speed. Here is my question.

1-I'm comming to a red light. I'm at 40miles per hour on 4th gear. If i have time, i slow down with the break, -clutch, shift to 3rd, match the rev's and release the clutch- now i'm in 3rd and still using my breaks but less force since engine breaking is being used. Anyway, Car comes down to the RPM's are under 1500 and i press the clutch, (car hasn't jearked or anything). Come to a complete stop. Put the shift into Neutral release the clutch and weight untill the light turns green to put it into 1st and go.

Is this correct? Because i hear that your always supposed to keep it in gears. Which i always to even on curve's when i have to downshift, i clutch downshift and match rev and release my clutch always in gears. But lately i've been at the red light with the car in first and clutch in. Which i never did but i read on the board (always in gear). The manual said something like never keep clutch in while in incline, CAR IDLE, and some other shit (manual is in the car). Is my first example good?

2-BEFORE i use to be in 4th gear at 40mph. Then clutch, put it in Neutral, realease clutch, and break. was this wrong?
This is what i do now.
4th gear at 40mph. i use the break. when the rpm's are a good amount i clutch downshift to 3rd, rev match, release the clutch and break slightly because the engine break is helping. Once almost to complete stop, i clutch shift to neutral and realease clutch and maintain my foot on the break. Is this cool?

Please help because i've been keeping the clutch in whiile in first gear at all the red lights. And i do'nt want to harm my trans, or my clutch... THANKS!

HappyG · 02-05-2007, 07:04 PM

I've read similar posts. I keep it simple...when at a red light, I'm off the clutch, in neutral. Any other time, I'm in gear, unless there is a situation that warrants keeping the tranny in neutral for over a min or so. Parked in front of a buddies house waiting for him to come out in a few mins comes to mind...engine is idling, clutch is not depressed, and gear is in neutral.

I don't know why on earth that would damage the tranny? And if so, are there verifiable tests that prove this, or perhaps it's another forum myth developed by super crazy OCD freaks that think their 45k car is god's spare car.
________
HOW TO ROLL A BLUNT

Curious Joel · 02-05-2007, 07:15 PM

Here's what I do at a red light:
-Downshift/rev match until I'm in 2nd gear, then put it in neutral and brake to a stop.
-At the light, in neutral, not pushing the clutch.
-Just before the light turns green, put it in gear, push the clutch in.

I keep the car out of gear at a light for safety reasons.. If someone hits me from behind, I don't want my foot slipping off the clutch and risk having the car lurch into the intersection, where I could be hit.

mmm def · 02-05-2007, 07:15 PM

If you are coming to a stop you can engine brake until the revs get down then put it in neutral and let off the clutch. I'd say keep it in gear slowing down, saves the brakes a bit. And don't sit stopped with the clutch in it's not good for it.

khafner · 02-05-2007, 07:29 PM

some throw-out bearings are more likely to wear out prematurely if you hold the clutch in too long. That is another reason to stay off the clutch when at a light. I have used commercial equipment that had lock-outs that held the clutch in neutral. I have seen more than one destroyed because they forgot it and blew the bearing.

TahoeOG · 02-05-2007, 07:39 PM

THANK YOU A GREAT DEAL... Then it's good what i'm starting to do now... I used to do exactly that, but since i read somewhere to keep it in gear i had the clutch in while at the light... But now i'm going to continue doing what i used to do... Which is exactly what all of you do. All the examples shown is exactly what i've started to do. Thank you very much! I really appriciate everyone's help! Thank you... Car is now at 934miles... A couple more miles to the break in finished... THANKS E90MEMBERS!!!

742 · 02-05-2007, 07:46 PM

You are making this too hard. Drive smoothly. Don’t come down a mountain in neutral. Approaching a light--do whatever you feel comfortable with that day, at that light in those conditions. As for turns, I don’t mind if my kids (I have two teenagers and no slushboxes) coast through suburban neighborhood turns with the clutch in. The world won’t end, and heel and toe is later in the curriculum.

Which does not mean I discount the advice given by the other posters; it is all good solid guidance. Just don't over think the process. A joy of the MT is that there is flexibility.

742 · 02-05-2007, 07:48 PM

Sorry, billmister replied while I was typing.

TahoeOG · 02-05-2007, 10:28 PM

not a problem! I don't go downhill with it in neutral, LOL... Yeah for that i use a good gear to use a bit engine breaking, but i still use the breaks only not as much.. When i drive it's ALWAYS on a gear, but only now when i get to a solid light where i have to be idle for a minute or two, then neutral. Thanks for everyon's advise. I love manual transmission.. For some reason, the gears go in SOOOOoooooo smoothly now. Like every manual i've driven. my car is in the 900's miles now, so i think it's going good. Thanks ALL!

aw_330i · 02-05-2007, 10:36 PM

i was taught always to leave the car in gear at a light for safety reasons.

make sense to me so that's what i do

BK · 02-05-2007, 11:03 PM

Either of your two methods you posted are perfectly fine and people do either or both all the time with MT.

FWIW, I tend to use your first method, and I think that's the more common way to do it. Rather than throwing it in neutral at 40 mph and using just the brakes to stop, use engine braking at the same time -- downshift until 3rd, and don't throw it in neutral until ~1200-1500 RPM. At that point, you're going pretty slow. I don't usually bother downshifting to 2nd for a normal stop unless I'm in slow crawling traffic and will be in 2nd for a while.

I agree it's nice to have it in gear at a light for safety reasons, to be ready to go at a moment's notice, but I think it's fair to say most of us are in neutral at a light, left foot off the clutch.

This is harder to type out and explain than just doing it. It should feel completely natural after a while. If it does, then you're doing it right.

Walked U · 02-05-2007, 11:55 PM

If its a red light that you can just chill for a bit at. Just pop it into neutral and slow down. Without your foot depressing the clutch.

Remember its cheaper to replace brakes than it is to replace a clutch.

TTG · 02-06-2007, 01:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walked U

Remember its cheaper to replace brakes than it is to replace a clutch.

+1.... I almost never use engine to slow down mainly for this reason..... I would rather get couple of extra sets of brakes than a clutch replacement.....

bronco · 02-06-2007, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TTG

+1.... I almost never use engine to slow down mainly for this reason..... I would rather get couple of extra sets of brakes than a clutch replacement.....

ENINTY · 02-06-2007, 11:54 AM

Sounds like a motorcyclist has been teaching you how to drive. Down shifting coming up to a red light is a waste of good clutch lining in my opinion. And matching revs is really not achieving anything more than wasting gas. The best method, if you are not, say, racing a Lexus IS350, is to just let the engine do some of the braking for you until it's just about to stall, then change into neutral, and use the brakes to finish stopping.

Leave it out of gear at the light. Leaving it in gear with the clutch depressed is okay, but hey, give your leg a break!

I think the rule to leave it in gear at a light is more of a motorcycle technique for safety than a car technique. On a bike it is safer to keep the trans in 1st, so you can get away quickly if some "Cage'r" (car driver) yapping on the cell tries to rear end you.

SoYank · 02-06-2007, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curious Joel

I keep the car out of gear at a light for safety reasons.. If someone hits me from behind, I don't want my foot slipping off the clutch and risk having the car lurch into the intersection, where I could be hit.

Here in jolly ol' England the police have told me that when you come to a stop sign you are to come to a complete stop, put it in neutral, let out the clutch, and put on the handbrake unless, of course, you're driving an automatic. Yeah, right. How many people actually come to a complete stop at a stop sign?

If I'm familiar with the light cycle I will either put it in neutral with the clutch out or keep it in gear with the clutch depressed if I'm expecting the green soon. I generally put it in neutral for the same reason you stated above; in case someone's not watching what they're doing. Same reason I keep my wheels straight when waiting to turn across traffic. Keeping it in gear for that quick getaway to avoid being rearended only works if a) you're the first in line and b) you're watching the rearview mirror all the time to notice the approaching vehicle in which case you're not watching for a changing light. Everyone has their own preference(s). I don't think either way is any better than the other once you've considered all of the pros and cons.

The lights are different here than in the states in the way they cycle -- red to red and yellow to green to yellow to red. If you watch the cross traffic's lights you can see when the yellow comes on giving you a heads up on the change. Then, when your red/yellow appears you can already be in gear and can release the handbrake and start letting out the clutch just as the light turns green. But don't do this on your practical driving test.

RRGOO7 · 02-06-2007, 01:31 PM

my dad taught me this "brakes cost alot less than trannys do so use them"

basically dont downshift unless ur racing and such

molp · 02-06-2007, 03:17 PM

I think u should just downshift smoothly when approacing a red light.
And please don't keep it in gear with the clutch down, just wasting your clutch then. And like someone replied it's safer.

RRG007: If u don't downshift, how do u come to a standstill from let's
say 120 km/h: putting it in neutral and just brake? Or putting the clutch down and brake?
If something should go wrong u need to put in gear first.

So normal smooth downshifting without letting it slip to much on the clutch is the best way i think.
Sometimes u can go from 4 -> 2 at onces, if u brake it to low rev in 4th and then keep braking while u downshift so the clutch doesn't slip it.

*I hope it's clear cause it ain't easy to discribe and english isn't my motherlanguage

BKsBimmer · 02-06-2007, 04:20 PM

Many years ago I wore out the clutch on my first manual tranny early from depressing the clutch too much, so I'll never forget that expensive lesson. Take your foot OFF the clutch when at a stop light. It'll save your clutch over time.

wistarf · 02-06-2007, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walked U

Remember its cheaper to replace brakes than it is to replace a clutch.

+1.

The original clutch on my first car, a 1982 Audi 4000, lasted 14 years and 337,000 miles and was still good when I sold the car. That was in the Boston area, with mixed city and hwy driving. I've never had to replace a clutch on any of my other cars either.

Here's what I've done:

- Pop it into neutral and coast as soon I know I'm going to have to stop up ahead.
- Pop it into neutral whenever I can coast comfortably down a hill.
- Idle in neutral with foot off the clutch.

I think that keeping it in gear at all times puts unnecessary wear and tear on your drivetrain *and* consumes more gas. And based on my own experience, I'd say there's no real safety benefit in keeping it in gear all the time either. Whether in gear or out of gear, good situational awareness is all that really matters.

Rotate · 02-06-2007, 06:08 PM

I agree with whoever said brakes are less expensive than a tranny. I suppose the proper way to approach a stoplight is to match revs and such, but I always just put it in neutral and brake all the way till the light. For the record, I usually get at least 35,000 miles out of my brakes, so I wouldn't stress the added brake wear. By the way, this was my first post, hope its not to nubbish!

Deveray · 02-06-2007, 09:15 PM

I don't buy the "clutch saving" argument for changing into neutral - the part of the clutch that wears out first is the friction plate and that isn't worn by holding the clutch down in neutral. The stress from declutching at a light is on the thrust bearing - and perhaps my confidence is misplaced but I think that modern thrust bearings will outlast the friction plate given the way most BMWs are driven. But I am not an engineer so please feel free to disagree.
I do buy the safety argument - if you are in neutral at a red light with the parking brake on and somebody rear ends you then you are probably safer, as whatever happens to your feet in the momentum of the accident the brake stays on and the engine isn't going to pull you forward.

02-05-2007, 06:44 PM	#1
TahoeOG Major 83 Rep 1,208 Posts Drives: e92 335i Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: NJ iTrader: (1)	Manual Transmission Red Light Hey guys did some searching on clutch and manual transmission but couldn't quite find what i was looking for. I tried google.com but a bunch or example with 4 speed manuals and 5 speed. Here is my question. 1-I'm comming to a red light. I'm at 40miles per hour on 4th gear. If i have time, i slow down with the break, -clutch, shift to 3rd, match the rev's and release the clutch- now i'm in 3rd and still using my breaks but less force since engine breaking is being used. Anyway, Car comes down to the RPM's are under 1500 and i press the clutch, (car hasn't jearked or anything). Come to a complete stop. Put the shift into Neutral release the clutch and weight untill the light turns green to put it into 1st and go. Is this correct? Because i hear that your always supposed to keep it in gears. Which i always to even on curve's when i have to downshift, i clutch downshift and match rev and release my clutch always in gears. But lately i've been at the red light with the car in first and clutch in. Which i never did but i read on the board (always in gear). The manual said something like never keep clutch in while in incline, CAR IDLE, and some other shit (manual is in the car). Is my first example good? 2-BEFORE i use to be in 4th gear at 40mph. Then clutch, put it in Neutral, realease clutch, and break. was this wrong? This is what i do now. 4th gear at 40mph. i use the break. when the rpm's are a good amount i clutch downshift to 3rd, rev match, release the clutch and break slightly because the engine break is helping. Once almost to complete stop, i clutch shift to neutral and realease clutch and maintain my foot on the break. Is this cool? Please help because i've been keeping the clutch in whiile in first gear at all the red lights. And i do'nt want to harm my trans, or my clutch... THANKS! __________________ Selling my winter setup, Hit me UP!
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02-05-2007, 07:04 PM	#2
HappyG Major 45 Rep 1,007 Posts Drives: 06 BMW 330i / 6SP Join Date: May 2006 Location: CA iTrader: (13) Garage List 2006 330i [0.00]	I've read similar posts. I keep it simple...when at a red light, I'm off the clutch, in neutral. Any other time, I'm in gear, unless there is a situation that warrants keeping the tranny in neutral for over a min or so. Parked in front of a buddies house waiting for him to come out in a few mins comes to mind...engine is idling, clutch is not depressed, and gear is in neutral. I don't know why on earth that would damage the tranny? And if so, are there verifiable tests that prove this, or perhaps it's another forum myth developed by super crazy OCD freaks that think their 45k car is god's spare car. ________ HOW TO ROLL A BLUNT Last edited by HappyG; 05-17-2011 at 02:38 AM..
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02-05-2007, 07:15 PM	#3
Curious Joel Private 3 Rep 80 Posts Drives: E92 335i Montego/Saddle Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Concord, NH iTrader: (0)	Here's what I do at a red light: -Downshift/rev match until I'm in 2nd gear, then put it in neutral and brake to a stop. -At the light, in neutral, not pushing the clutch. -Just before the light turns green, put it in gear, push the clutch in. I keep the car out of gear at a light for safety reasons.. If someone hits me from behind, I don't want my foot slipping off the clutch and risk having the car lurch into the intersection, where I could be hit. __________________ Curious Joel ---------------------------- 2007 335i Coupe Montego/Saddle/Poplar Sport/Steptronic/Paddles/Premium/CA PDC/Nav/6FL/etc.
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02-05-2007, 07:15 PM	#4
mmm def Colonel 144 Rep 2,610 Posts Drives: 21 330, 19 ND2 RF, 11 RX350 Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: NJ iTrader: (0)	If you are coming to a stop you can engine brake until the revs get down then put it in neutral and let off the clutch. I'd say keep it in gear slowing down, saves the brakes a bit. And don't sit stopped with the clutch in it's not good for it.
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02-05-2007, 07:29 PM	#5
khafner Private First Class 6 Rep 123 Posts Drives: e90 330i Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: fulton, ny iTrader: (0)	some throw-out bearings are more likely to wear out prematurely if you hold the clutch in too long. That is another reason to stay off the clutch when at a light. I have used commercial equipment that had lock-outs that held the clutch in neutral. I have seen more than one destroyed because they forgot it and blew the bearing.
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02-05-2007, 07:39 PM	#6
TahoeOG Major 83 Rep 1,208 Posts Drives: e92 335i Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: NJ iTrader: (1)	THANK YOU A GREAT DEAL... Then it's good what i'm starting to do now... I used to do exactly that, but since i read somewhere to keep it in gear i had the clutch in while at the light... But now i'm going to continue doing what i used to do... Which is exactly what all of you do. All the examples shown is exactly what i've started to do. Thank you very much! I really appriciate everyone's help! Thank you... Car is now at 934miles... A couple more miles to the break in finished... THANKS E90MEMBERS!!! __________________ Selling my winter setup, Hit me UP!
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02-05-2007, 07:46 PM	#7
742 Major 13 Rep 1,187 Posts Drives: E90 325i; F10 528i; 2002tii Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: PA iTrader: (0)	You are making this too hard. Drive smoothly. Don’t come down a mountain in neutral. Approaching a light--do whatever you feel comfortable with that day, at that light in those conditions. As for turns, I don’t mind if my kids (I have two teenagers and no slushboxes) coast through suburban neighborhood turns with the clutch in. The world won’t end, and heel and toe is later in the curriculum. Which does not mean I discount the advice given by the other posters; it is all good solid guidance. Just don't over think the process. A joy of the MT is that there is flexibility.
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02-05-2007, 07:48 PM	#8
742 Major 13 Rep 1,187 Posts Drives: E90 325i; F10 528i; 2002tii Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: PA iTrader: (0)	Sorry, billmister replied while I was typing.
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02-05-2007, 10:28 PM	#9
TahoeOG Major 83 Rep 1,208 Posts Drives: e92 335i Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: NJ iTrader: (1)	not a problem! I don't go downhill with it in neutral, LOL... Yeah for that i use a good gear to use a bit engine breaking, but i still use the breaks only not as much.. When i drive it's ALWAYS on a gear, but only now when i get to a solid light where i have to be idle for a minute or two, then neutral. Thanks for everyon's advise. I love manual transmission.. For some reason, the gears go in SOOOOoooooo smoothly now. Like every manual i've driven. my car is in the 900's miles now, so i think it's going good. Thanks ALL! __________________ Selling my winter setup, Hit me UP!
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02-05-2007, 10:36 PM	#10
aw_330i Second Lieutenant 19 Rep 214 Posts Drives: 2016 AY M4 Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Toronto / Richmond Hill iTrader: (1)	i was taught always to leave the car in gear at a light for safety reasons. make sense to me so that's what i do
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02-05-2007, 11:03 PM	#11
BK Smiling politely 165 Rep 7,931 Posts Drives: 330i Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Washington DC iTrader: (0) Garage List 2006 330i [9.00]	Either of your two methods you posted are perfectly fine and people do either or both all the time with MT. FWIW, I tend to use your first method, and I think that's the more common way to do it. Rather than throwing it in neutral at 40 mph and using just the brakes to stop, use engine braking at the same time -- downshift until 3rd, and don't throw it in neutral until ~1200-1500 RPM. At that point, you're going pretty slow. I don't usually bother downshifting to 2nd for a normal stop unless I'm in slow crawling traffic and will be in 2nd for a while. I agree it's nice to have it in gear at a light for safety reasons, to be ready to go at a moment's notice, but I think it's fair to say most of us are in neutral at a light, left foot off the clutch. This is harder to type out and explain than just doing it. It should feel completely natural after a while. If it does, then you're doing it right. __________________ E90 330i Black Sapphire 6MT \| 991.1 C4 Platinum Silver 7MT
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02-05-2007, 11:55 PM	#12
Walked U Brigadier General 179 Rep 3,125 Posts Drives: Too many to list Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: USA iTrader: (5)	If its a red light that you can just chill for a bit at. Just pop it into neutral and slow down. Without your foot depressing the clutch. Remember its cheaper to replace brakes than it is to replace a clutch. __________________ Previous - E90 335i, E82 135i, E89 Z4 3.5SI, Range Rover S/C, Ultra White RCF, Maserati Granturismo Current Lexus: SMG LC500 performance package Porsche:1973 911E Ferrari 575 SA, 458 Italia
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02-06-2007, 11:54 AM	#15
ENINTY Banned 173 Rep 3,415 Posts Drives: 2006 325i Sport Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Virginia iTrader: (0)	Sounds like a motorcyclist has been teaching you how to drive. Down shifting coming up to a red light is a waste of good clutch lining in my opinion. And matching revs is really not achieving anything more than wasting gas. The best method, if you are not, say, racing a Lexus IS350, is to just let the engine do some of the braking for you until it's just about to stall, then change into neutral, and use the brakes to finish stopping. Leave it out of gear at the light. Leaving it in gear with the clutch depressed is okay, but hey, give your leg a break! I think the rule to leave it in gear at a light is more of a motorcycle technique for safety than a car technique. On a bike it is safer to keep the trans in 1st, so you can get away quickly if some "Cage'r" (car driver) yapping on the cell tries to rear end you.
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02-06-2007, 01:31 PM	#17
RRGOO7 Colonel 360 Rep 2,451 Posts Drives: GTR Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Miami FL iTrader: (13)	my dad taught me this "brakes cost alot less than trannys do so use them" basically dont downshift unless ur racing and such
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02-06-2007, 03:17 PM	#18
molp New Member 0 Rep 7 Posts Drives: none Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: belgium iTrader: (0)	I think u should just downshift smoothly when approacing a red light. And please don't keep it in gear with the clutch down, just wasting your clutch then. And like someone replied it's safer. RRG007: If u don't downshift, how do u come to a standstill from let's say 120 km/h: putting it in neutral and just brake? Or putting the clutch down and brake? If something should go wrong u need to put in gear first. So normal smooth downshifting without letting it slip to much on the clutch is the best way i think. Sometimes u can go from 4 -> 2 at onces, if u brake it to low rev in 4th and then keep braking while u downshift so the clutch doesn't slip it. *I hope it's clear cause it ain't easy to discribe and english isn't my motherlanguage
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02-06-2007, 04:20 PM	#19
BKsBimmer Lieutenant Colonel 87 Rep 1,645 Posts Drives: 2006 330xi Titanium Silver Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: USA / Silver Spring, Maryland iTrader: (0) Garage List 2006 330xi [10.00] 2006 330xi [0.00]	Many years ago I wore out the clutch on my first manual tranny early from depressing the clutch too much, so I'll never forget that expensive lesson. Take your foot OFF the clutch when at a stop light. It'll save your clutch over time. __________________ _____________________________________
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02-06-2007, 06:08 PM	#21
Rotate Enlisted Member 29 Rep 36 Posts Drives: 2015 AY M4 6SPD, 2014 Viper Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Melville, NY iTrader: (0)	I agree with whoever said brakes are less expensive than a tranny. I suppose the proper way to approach a stoplight is to match revs and such, but I always just put it in neutral and brake all the way till the light. For the record, I usually get at least 35,000 miles out of my brakes, so I wouldn't stress the added brake wear. By the way, this was my first post, hope its not to nubbish!
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02-06-2007, 09:15 PM	#22
Deveray Private First Class 10 Rep 141 Posts Drives: 2010 535i X-Drive Touring Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Colorado iTrader: (0)	I don't buy the "clutch saving" argument for changing into neutral - the part of the clutch that wears out first is the friction plate and that isn't worn by holding the clutch down in neutral. The stress from declutching at a light is on the thrust bearing - and perhaps my confidence is misplaced but I think that modern thrust bearings will outlast the friction plate given the way most BMWs are driven. But I am not an engineer so please feel free to disagree. I do buy the safety argument - if you are in neutral at a red light with the parking brake on and somebody rear ends you then you are probably safer, as whatever happens to your feet in the momentum of the accident the brake stays on and the engine isn't going to pull you forward.
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