[NickG]

I preface this thread by making the point that I love my 335i coupe to bits. I went into the purchase decision with my eyes wide open, and with previous BMW experience having owned a E46 325i sedan before I bought my Mazda RX8. After 7 weeks of "post RX8" E92 ownership I remain entirely happy with my choice, in the context of my current needs. I also recognise that all cars are compromises, and BMW's are no exception.

None of what follows diminishes my enthusiasm for E92 335i's truly wonderful engine, finish quality, yummy noise, practicality, exquisitely balanced handling on smooth roads etc etc. What it does, though, is signal that -in this class of car at least- BMW haven't quite reached perfection -yet.

Please also bear in mind that my 335i is Aussie spec, which means standard 18" RFT's (RE050A), on sport suspension (FWIW I believe the RFT's have been a relatively minor contributor to my criticisms below).

That's the background. Now here is the controversial bit:

Although it's an incredibly accomplished all rounder, there are a number of important respects in which the stock e92 335i is plainly inferior as a driver's car to the more tightly focussed, but half price, RX8.

1. On truly demanding ( read very tight,twisty, bumpy and poorly cambered) roads, the E92 is quite a handful. The car bounces around both vertically and laterally, frequently losing contact with the road surface. Left in default mode, the traction control light flickers constantly, reflecting the car's inability to get power to the ground in these conditions. To achieve respectable progress engaging DTC is essential, to overcome the incessant electronic intervention. The short suspension travel also results in occasional bottoming.

On these roads you never lose the impression that the car is carrying quite a lot of weight. In very tight corners there is some front end push, and in these circumstances turn in is not as sharp as it could be, especially if you are simultaneously working hard to wash off speed with the brakes.

By contrast, the RX8 simply murders such roads. Its suspension compliance and suppleness is extraordinary. It sails over bumps and camber changes that confound my 335i. And it does this whilst preserving accurate turn in and maintaining a feeling of lightness and agility that appears to be more or less absent from the BMW lexicon.

My suspicions: amongst other things ( the RX8's lower weight, lower centre of gravity etc) what we are seeing here are:
- the limitations of BMW's front MacPherson struts vs RX8's well developed alloy double wishbones, AND
- a development program that spends too much time on the lovely, cultivated, smooth roads of Northern Europe and not enough time on the truly demanding drivers' roads of, say, the UK ( did anyone say Wales??) or remoter parts of the US, or even insignificant, out of the way little Australia.

2. The 335i steering is good - certainly better than my E46 - but it lacks the precision of the RX8, which also manages to reduce its assistance as speeds rise in a beautifully controlled way. By comparison, the E92 steering is quite "glutinous" - it feels like all its linkages are embedded in thick grease. Unlike the RX8, it's heavyish at low speeds, but paradoxically no more weighty, nimble or confidence-inspiring at high speeds.

3. The 6MT 335i has an olde worlde, long throw gearshift which in my car (and some others', it would seem) is also occasionally obstructive for no apparent reason. I say this having owned manual cars exclusively for the past 28 years.
As manual shifts go, E92's has a satisfyingly mechanical feel, and is certainly much better than average. But the RX8 shows it can be done far,far better. Subjectively its shift is half the length; its throws are correspondingly far shorter and its gate is better defined and incredibly slick. You can flick it with your little finger if you want to,and it will never,ever baulk.

(You won't be surprised that procuring the BMW accessory short gearshift lever is high on my agenda.However, it doesn't seem to be available here in Australia so I'm still researching how I can conveniently get it!!!)

4. Although BMW likes to promote the throttle responsive nature of their cars, my experience does not completely confirm this. Throttle response on my early "drive by wire" E46 was plainly worse than on some - supposedly mundane - Hondas I've driven.
The E92 is clearly better, but the RX8's drive by wire throttle is, quite simply, a precision instrument. Despite a 48KW power defecit and 180NM torque defecit (Aussie versions) the little Mazda manages to feel incredibly responsive, because each tiny fraction of accelerator pedal travel produces an immediate, enthusiastic response from the engine. By comparison E92's response is a little doughy (like the E46) and also sometimes unprogessive ( presumably due to turbo-related artifacts).

So there you have it. Does any of this diminish my joy in driving/owning the E92? No, not at all. I've been nuts about Bimmers since I was 15, and I've spent half a lifetime getting to the stage where I could afford to buy a serious perfomance BMW, which costs the equivalent of US$94k here ( albeit standard with a lot of stuff that is optional in the US).
Clearly E92 is a truly wonderful sports sedan ( coupe?). The bits that are good are very,very good. But that doesn't mean it is beyond reproach...
I hope my excessively lengthy comments provoke thought, but not anger. If you are offended, try to remember I probably love this car as much as any of you.....

Nick

[Ninjaneer]

Thanks for the write-up.

BTW for the uninformed, an RX8 is a Mazda (only caught one reference to it in the post so I was a little lost till I looked it up).

[NFS]

Excessive intervention of DSC and delayed throttle response have led to regular criticisms of the newer BMW's.

Switching to DTC will help with both (I believe throttle delay is occasionaly down to engine torque being damped by DSC).

I think the gearbox WILL improve with time. Every BMW I have had (7 so far) has been very stiff and notchy to begin with. I've got 8000 miles on my car and the gearchange is only just starting to feel 'right'.

My feeling is that the RX8 is just a bit more focused. The 335i leans slightly more toward refinement and in that it loses a little bit of 'edge'.

[NickG]

Originally Posted by Ninjaneer

Thanks for the write-up.

BTW for the uninformed, an RX8 is a Mazda (only caught one reference to it in the post so I was a little lost till I looked it up).

Man you are quick!! Corrected now tks. You even got the colour of my old car right!
Nick

[E36325is]

Perhaps dumping the OEM run flat tyres would help the handling side? RE-050A even the normal version is not good, quite a disappointment, try PS2. OEM shocks I think they're by Sachs? Try Bilstein like ur previous Mazda am sure would help the ride side.

I am actually a proponent of strut front rather than double wishbone front, I find strut a lot more communicative.

[txusa03]

I actually read the whole thing (but not sure if I remember all the details). Overall, I did not get the impression that you hate the e92 or want to trade it in for something else. I have never driven the RX8 so I can only take your word for it. I cannot disagree on something I have not experienced before. Everyone has their own opinion about everything. Since you have owned both cars, it is only right that you feel the way you do. Good reading!

I still like my e90 alot.

[NickG]

Originally Posted by needforspeed

Excessive intervention of DSC and delayed throttle response have led to regular criticisms of the newer BMW's.

Switching to DTC will help with both (I believe throttle delay is occasionaly down to engine torque being damped by DSC).

I think the gearbox WILL improve with time. Every BMW I have had (7 so far) has been very stiff and notchy to begin with. I've got 8000 miles on my car and the gearchange is only just starting to feel 'right'.

My feeling is that the RX8 is just a bit more focused. The 335i leans slightly more toward refinement and in that it loses a little bit of 'edge'.

Totally agree re the gearbox- my E46 shift never completely came on song till about 30,000km! But E90/92 shift lever is still absurdly/unnecessarily/un-BMW long. Why???

And you are spot on re the "focused" bit - hence the reference in my post..

[picus]

There isn't a lot the OP is going to be able to do to make the 335i feel like an RX8 - I am not even sure he wants to; sometimes comparing cars with different objectives is fun, but it's always a grass is greener thing. I liked reading this; the RX8 is a great car in a completely different way than the 335i is a great car.

[NickG]

Originally Posted by txusa03

I actually read the whole thing (but not sure if I remember all the details). Overall, I did not get the impression that you hate the e92 or want to trade it in for something else. I have never driven the RX8 so I can only take your word for it. I cannot disagree on something I have not experienced before. Everyone has their own opinion about everything. Since you have owned both cars, it is only right that you feel the way you do. Good reading!

I still like my e90 alot.

You are absolutely right. Dammit i love this car - in spite of its imperfections. But I just think its not a bad thing to have a healthy dose of realism once in a while.....

[Josh49]

Great writeup..

[dmfitz82]

well - the main problem is that the e92 is not a true sports car... I feel the same way about my S2000 as you feel about the RX-8. The handling on those cars is truly superior - but then again, they are in a different class.

[SpecC]

I like your comparison of the two. I guess this is a matter of what do you want in your car and are you willing to put up with it? I think it's a general assumption that rotary engines are awesome but will have some trouble with its reliability. The RX8 really DOES look great though.

To me, the E90 I drive feels great as a sports car. The other sports car i drove before the E90 was the GDC Impreza STi. It was the best driving experience of my young life! Then I started driving the E90 330i and I knew it wouldn't be the same. I still liked the E90 for its amazing handling ability.

[NickG]

Originally Posted by E36325is

Perhaps dumping the OEM run flat tyres would help the handling side? RE-050A even the normal version is not good, quite a disappointment, try PS2. OEM shocks I think they're by Sachs? Try Bilstein like ur previous Mazda am sure would help the ride side.

I am actually a proponent of strut front rather than double wishbone front, I find strut a lot more communicative.

Ref tyres: in my experience there are some cars that are hugely tyre sensitive, and just don't handle right unless you run serious rubber like PS2's. Examples- just about any high powered FWD car you can mention ( my old 2.8 VR6 Golf was a classic example). There are others - by virtue of inherently good suspension design, geometry and balance - that simply don't stress their tyres much. I ran relatively inexpensive Toyo Trampio Gu:Wn on the Mazda, and never felt short changed. The suspension anomalies I encounter under extreme conditions in the E92 are exactly the same as I encountered in my E46, which I shod with all manner of gorgeous rubber including S03's, Eagle F1 etc.
I think the RFT's are 20% of the issue, the rest is short suspension travel, Macpherson struts, and dampers aligned to gorgeous Euro secondary roads. I'll predict right now the next gen 3 series will NOT run strut front suspension.

[NickG]

Originally Posted by picus

There isn't a lot the OP is going to be able to do to make the 335i feel like an RX8 - I am not even sure he wants to; sometimes comparing cars with different objectives is fun, but it's always a grass is greener thing. I liked reading this; the RX8 is a great car in a completely different way than the 335i is a great car.

I'm blown away by the fact that you and others who have replied so far have picked up my lengthily ( and maybe poorly!) explained point so precisely. No amount of suspension mods or whatever will transform a 335i into an RX8. And no amount of fettling the Rx8 engine will recreate the brilliance of 335i twin turbo, nor is Mazda ever likely to create a car with the depth of quality, finish etc of BMW. My purpose is to say: stop thinking we are all driving some kind of ultimate, perfect machine. Enjoy,enjoy,enjoy the bits that BMW do so well, but let's not be afraid to remind them they can do better!

We should all celebrate the fact that eccentric tightly focused affordable cars like RX8, Lotus Elise, Mitsubishi EVO etc etc exist, because they help raise the standards in a few areas that are meaningful to enthusiasts on this and doubtless many other forums like it....

[firstkill]

I really loved mazda,

The miata when it first came out was good, and the RX7s and 8s,
I wish they just focused a little more on the power plant in ALL their cars...

but as a 4 seater sedan or coupe with all the bells and whistles BMW is on top.

~fk

[E36325is]

Also forgot to mention one of the main culprits of the E92 335 is the 1,600kg weight! Versus the RX-8's 1,300 kg sets them 300kgs apart! I remember my E36 325 was abt 1,350 kg and I didn't think that car was light.

[NickG]

Originally Posted by dmfitz82

well - the main problem is that the e92 is not a true sports car... I feel the same way about my S2000 as you feel about the RX-8. The handling on those cars is truly superior - but then again, they are in a different class.

You know it's funny- when I wrote this post I was wondering if any S2k drivers might chime in! The RX8 fraternity was always arguing ( mostly in a nice way) about the relative merits of the two cars. Fact is the general principles of light weight, RWD, attention to detail in chassis design/engine positioning, high revving small engines, agility etc are absolutely common to both.

Apart from RWD, the Bimmer is so incredibly different in design and execution. It's fun to have owned both extremes though....

[335inSC]

Originally Posted by NickG

I preface this thread by making the point that I love my 335i coupe to bits. I went into the purchase decision with my eyes wide open, and with previous BMW experience having owned a E46 325i sedan before I bought my Mazda RX8. After 7 weeks of "post RX8" E92 ownership I remain entirely happy with my choice, in the context of my current needs. I also recognise that all cars are compromises, and BMW's are no exception.

None of what follows diminishes my enthusiasm for E92 335i's truly wonderful engine, finish quality, yummy noise, practicality, exquisitely balanced handling on smooth roads etc etc. What it does, though, is signal that -in this class of car at least- BMW haven't quite reached perfection -yet.

Please also bear in mind that my 335i is Aussie spec, which means standard 18" RFT's (RE050A), on sport suspension (FWIW I believe the RFT's have been a relatively minor contributor to my criticisms below).
Nick

Dude - I'm the Corporate Controller for a mid-size public company and we don't have disclaimers that big on our SEC filings...

[canuck335i]

amazing what 300kg can do hey?

nice write-up!

[epiphone3]

Originally Posted by NickG

1. On truly demanding ( read very tight,twisty, bumpy and poorly cambered) roads, the E92 is quite a handful. The car bounces around both vertically and laterally, frequently losing contact with the road surface. Left in default mode, the traction control light flickers constantly, reflecting the car's inability to get power to the ground in these conditions. To achieve respectable progress engaging DTC is essential, to overcome the incessant electronic intervention. The short suspension travel also results in occasional bottoming.

On these roads you never lose the impression that the car is carrying quite a lot of weight. In very tight corners there is some front end push, and in these circumstances turn in is not as sharp as it could be, especially if you are simultaneously working hard to wash off speed with the brakes.

By contrast, the RX8 simply murders such roads. Its suspension compliance and suppleness is extraordinary. It sails over bumps and camber changes that confound my 335i. And it does this whilst preserving accurate turn in and maintaining a feeling of lightness and agility that appears to be more or less absent from the BMW lexicon.

My suspicions: amongst other things ( the RX8's lower weight, lower centre of gravity etc) what we are seeing here are:
- the limitations of BMW's front MacPherson struts vs RX8's well developed alloy double wishbones, AND
- a development program that spends too much time on the lovely, cultivated, smooth roads of Northern Europe and not enough time on the truly demanding drivers' roads of, say, the UK ( did anyone say Wales??) or remoter parts of the US, or even insignificant, out of the way little Australia.

Nick

Nick another that I noticed when driving the 335i is the following... my 323i corners better and handles tougher roads better that the 335i.

Why is this? My E90 323i does not make 300+ ft-lbs of torque across the entire rev range... the power band is more progressive and this makes the car easier to push to the limit. The 335i has so much torque that it can really unsettle the car if you push even a little bit too hard.

The RX-8 has, and I am not being a jerk here, an anemic level of low end torque and a very top heavy power band which will automatically make it an EASIER car to drive to the limit.

I think that you may be confusing easy to drive with "driver's car" a little bit. The Rx-8 is sexy looking and unique and a cool track car, I agree with you. The 335i is like a 1000cc sport bike... a bull in a china shop, so to speak and it requires almost a professional to extract its limits effectively

[NickG]

Originally Posted by E36325is

Also forgot to mention one of the main culprits of the E92 335 is the 1,600kg weight! Versus the RX-8's 1,300 kg sets them 300kgs apart! I remember my E36 325 was abt 1,350 kg and I didn't think that car was light.

True,true,true. But although the little Mazda had 4 star Euro NCAP safety, I feel a lot more safe and solid in myE92

HOWEVER...here's a point that I doubt BMW will ever surpass (in 3 er class at least). If you open the engine bay of an RX8, you will see that the entire engine is behind the front axle. What's more, the engine casing ( rotary equivalent of engine block) is at about knee height. The implications are enormous: because of the low centre of gravity and polar inertia, RX8 can run relatively soft supension/damper/roll bar settings to cope with nasty, bumpy road conditions, while preserving outstanding handing/agility/turn in. How friggin' clever is that???

Should mainstream European manufacturers ignore this stuff? I don't think so.

[NFS]

Originally Posted by NickG

Totally agree re the gearbox- my E46 shift never completely came on song till about 30,000km! But E90/92 shift lever is still absurdly/unnecessarily/un-BMW long. Why???

And you are spot on re the "focused" bit - hence the reference in my post..

My gear levers fine - but I have the m-sport shortened version