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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > "Attention E46 M3 owners..." - shiv and xede cited :)



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      11-23-2006, 11:30 AM   #1
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"Attention E46 M3 owners..." - shiv and xede cited :)

http://0-60mag.com/online/?p=26

.... with a little elbow grease and cartography, 335i owners can now pretty much walk your beloved M Power"
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      11-23-2006, 11:45 AM   #2
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      11-23-2006, 01:45 PM   #3
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      11-24-2006, 10:47 AM   #4
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I do understand some of the people who prefer the E46 M3, but for me, I would go with an upgraded performance 335i coupe because I like Idrive and the newer interior. Either way, I dont think any BMW owners should be hatin' on each other!
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      11-26-2006, 11:13 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toolfan
I do understand some of the people who prefer the E46 M3, but for me, I would go with an upgraded performance 335i coupe because I like Idrive and the newer interior. Either way, I dont think any BMW owners should be hatin' on each other!
I agree with your comment ,man. We are all a family.
At the end of the day we all have similary powered cars under the same prestigious manufacturer.

E46 M3 was the car of my dreams and I'm very proud to own a similary powered machinery.

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      11-26-2006, 11:45 AM   #6
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the E46 M3 will still be faster if u put 3k in mods in it too!! and picking up a used one is alot cheaper so more money for MODS!!
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      11-26-2006, 11:55 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADHD
the E46 M3 will still be faster if u put 3k in mods in it too!! and picking up a used one is alot cheaper so more money for MODS!!

Can you explain? Getting 70 whp from a e46 m3 just with 3k is so hard...
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      11-26-2006, 12:01 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walked U
Can you explain? Getting 70 whp from a e46 m3 just with 3k is so hard...
Try $1,300 for the Xede-only kit (Stage 0) and the 335i is faster than the current M3!
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      11-26-2006, 12:26 PM   #9
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Its because the E90-E93 engines are not running currently at their full potential. BMW, more than likely because of having a 3 series car and their new baby, the V-8 M3, running with the same power, underpowered the car a lil bit.

Plus, coming from the turbo world before, when you have a car with an engine thats already turbocharged, mods and the potential for a really powerful car are there more so than a naturally aspirated vehicle.
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      11-26-2006, 02:38 PM   #10
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It’s a bit difficult to compare these 2 cars, as despite having similar on paper performance, they are very different cars, with a very different design brief, and they will appeal to a different sort of driver. There is no ‘best’ car, they are both very good at what they do.
First the facts. The 335i is NOT as quick as the M3 in a strait line, or around a track. It could have been quicker, and indeed with a small amount of tuning work easily beats the M3 in outright performance. BMW have been very careful to make the 335i perform well, but keep it below the M3 in outright performance. They would have a hard time selling the current E46 M3 as the ultimate performance 3 series if it was ‘slower’ than a ‘normal’ model.
The gear ratios of the 2 cars are very different as detailed below.

M3 gear ratios 335i gear ratios
Final Drive 3.64:1
]Final Drive 3.08:1
1st Gear Ratio 4.23:1 1st Gear Ratio 4.055:1
2nd Gear Ratio 2.53:1 2nd Gear Ratio 2.396:1
3rd Gear Ratio 1.67:1 3rd Gear Ratio 1.582:1
4th Gear Ratio 1.23:1 4th Gear Ratio 1.192:1
5th Gear Ratio 1.00:1 5th Gear Ratio 1.000:1
6th Gear Ratio 0.83:1 6th Gear Ratio 0.872:1

As can be seen, the 335i surprisingly has a closer ratio gearbox than the M3, and not so surprisingly a much shorter diff ratio. The latter is slightly offset by running larger diameter tyres.
My personal theory is that the 335i gearbox ratios are a legacy of the origin of the gearbox, (ZF tyre g) which is used in the M5 and M6 along with the 645. it has the same ratios in all of these cars.

http://uk.geocities.com/jpsubsea/wheeltorq.jpg

The graph shows the torque available at the wheels as the vehicle accelerates from 0 to 100 MPH. The acceleration of a vehicle depends on a lot of factors, but mainly the torque at the wheels, the weight of the vehicle, and as speed increases, wind resistance and rolling resistance.
The drivetrain losses have already been taken out of the equation as the torque values are calculated from the wheel torque on the dyno.
The results are worked out from the overall gear ratios in each gear.
The M3 is slightly quicker due to its higher reving engine, which allows for lower gearing, resulting in higher torque figures at the wheels. This, combined with the lower weight of the car will ensure it is quicker under most circumstances.
But looking at Shiv’s tuned car, it is clearly ahead of the M3 at all speeds, and in a drag race, despite the extra weight, the tuned 335i has it beaten by a good margin.
With a bit of weight reduction, and some more tuning, the 335i has the potential to be a stunningly quick car, without spending much money at all. The easy tuneable turbo engine will make it popular with those who want to modify their car for higher performance.
This will steal away a lot of previous M3 customers, who will enjoy the good bang for bucks this car represents.
The new M3 will have to be an outstanding car to keep its place at the top of this model range, and if the recent cars by BMW are anything to go by, I am sure it will be.
It will be fitted with the next generation BMW performance engine, a V8 based on the tremendous V10 unit fitted to the M5. It will most likely use direct injection which will allow for a very high compression ratio, which, when combined with high RPM will provide a BHP/Litre figure never before seen in a series production car.
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      11-26-2006, 04:22 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason
http://0-60mag.com/online/?p=26

.... with a little elbow grease and cartography, 335i owners can now pretty much walk your beloved M Power"
Funny how folks keep taking a 2006-developed product and proudly announcing how great it is compared to a 2000-developed product.
These kind of goofy comparisons only continue to validate what a very good product the E46 M3 was.

You also compare apples to oranges simply by using a modified FI engine vs a stock naturally aspirated engine.

The E46 M3 is a balanced package of responsive yet controlled handling, instant, linear, predictable power, and looks. Now, a previous generation model.

The E90/E92 335i is a current generation model. And, it's a great 3-Series car, offering power that was previously unavailable in the 3'er stable.

I expect that the E92 M3 will significantly exceed all performance aspects of both of the above.

All three are, and will be, fine machines; each with their unique performance characteristics and looks.
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      11-26-2006, 04:39 PM   #12
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Well said Norm
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      11-26-2006, 09:33 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by normcaldwell
Funny how folks keep taking a 2006-developed product and proudly announcing how great it is compared to a 2000-developed product.
These kind of goofy comparisons only continue to validate what a very good product the E46 M3 was.

You also compare apples to oranges simply by using a modified FI engine vs a stock naturally aspirated engine.

The E46 M3 is a balanced package of responsive yet controlled handling, instant, linear, predictable power, and looks. Now, a previous generation model.

The E90/E92 335i is a current generation model. And, it's a great 3-Series car, offering power that was previously unavailable in the 3'er stable.

I expect that the E92 M3 will significantly exceed all performance aspects of both of the above.

All three are, and will be, fine machines; each with their unique performance characteristics and looks.
couldn't have said it better myself.
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      11-26-2006, 09:34 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason
http://0-60mag.com/online/?p=26

.... with a little elbow grease and cartography, 335i owners can now pretty much walk your beloved M Power"


yeah....i dont think so..lol...

TURBO ///M3's OWNS ALL

E46 M3 with a HPF kit make 600 WHP at 11 PSI
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      11-26-2006, 09:43 PM   #15
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it seems like no one cares about anything but the 0-60. I mean i have to say that ///M vs non m BMW alone is a day and night diffrence. I mean ok the 335 may go just as fast or faster then an m3 but when that turn comes up which car is going to handle better. Which car is going to look better. Now i know this is just my opinion but i mean there is just to much hype about the 335 being faster then the ///M3 and honestly i dont understand what the point of it is, i mean is it that the 335 people feel better that there car which is 5 years newer then the M3 is now equal. You guys have to understand that the status of the 335 is based on the fact that it goes as fast as a car that is 5 years old and is naturally aspirated. To get to the main point. an ///M is an ///M.
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      11-27-2006, 07:58 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by normcaldwell
Funny how folks keep taking a 2006-developed product and proudly announcing how great it is compared to a 2000-developed product.
These kind of goofy comparisons only continue to validate what a very good product the E46 M3 was.

You also compare apples to oranges simply by using a modified FI engine vs a stock naturally aspirated engine.

The E46 M3 is a balanced package of responsive yet controlled handling, instant, linear, predictable power, and looks. Now, a previous generation model.

The E90/E92 335i is a current generation model. And, it's a great 3-Series car, offering power that was previously unavailable in the 3'er stable.

I expect that the E92 M3 will significantly exceed all performance aspects of both of the above.

All three are, and will be, fine machines; each with their unique performance characteristics and looks.
I don't think anyone is trying to discredit the M3, because it is every 3-series owners dream (Atleast mine!!...I am waiting for the E92). I think the comparisons, while not apples-apples, is a confirmation of how good of a car the 335i really is. Any M3 owner should be flattered!!!!! Obviously newer technology will trump older technologies, ie. IT, but for the next generation "regular" car to beat a previous generation "crown jewel" is pretty amazing I believe. Now if we're talking multiple generations, I do not think it would be that much of a hoopla.

I do not believe there is any reason to believe any 335i owner is trying to bash any M3 owner and make them feel as if their car is inferior, obviously it isn't.

To think the 335i can get 4.8 0-60, what will the E92 M3 get? 4.2? Now we're getting into M5 territory !!!!

Good luck with your car, maybe we should concentrate our efforts on the S4's and RS4's(a bit out of 335i's league).

I was at a local walmart (I know I know), there was a silver M3 owner checking out my 335i, I was drooling over his M3, no competition to see "who's is bigger".

Safe Driving.
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      11-27-2006, 08:08 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by socalm3
it seems like no one cares about anything but the 0-60. I mean i have to say that ///M vs non m BMW alone is a day and night diffrence. I mean ok the 335 may go just as fast or faster then an m3 but when that turn comes up which car is going to handle better. Which car is going to look better. Now i know this is just my opinion but i mean there is just to much hype about the 335 being faster then the ///M3 and honestly i dont understand what the point of it is, i mean is it that the 335 people feel better that there car which is 5 years newer then the M3 is now equal. You guys have to understand that the status of the 335 is based on the fact that it goes as fast as a car that is 5 years old and is naturally aspirated. To get to the main point. an ///M is an ///M.

I think that is a bit unreasonable, the 335i alone is a great handling car with exceptional power. I myself will not buy a car just because its an ///M or AMG. Under that theory, would you choose an E36 M3 over a 335i at the same price? A good car is a good car and obviously the E46 M3 is going to be a better track car then the 335i. It's just nice to know that the 335i has just as much power as the M3, handles very well and has very good road manners when your not on the track. Now will E46 M3 owners get offended when E92 M3 owners come aboard and say their car does 0-60 in blah blah. I am hoping to join the BMW car club, they apparently have some racing events at Pocono Raceway in PA, maybe I can learn a thing or two about the handling potential of the 335. Maybe by then the E92 M3 can show me a thing or 2 about true V8 power!!!!
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      11-27-2006, 08:47 PM   #18
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Haven't I read plenty of posts about the e92 within tenth of a second and sometimes beating e46 m3's?

I know I have. Look at the nurbergring times. 335i stock was within .5 second on a 8:20lap
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      11-27-2006, 08:48 PM   #19
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I cant see getting a new e92 just to sup-it-up for more additional phonies to say it beats the stock e46/m3 or what flavor of the month car it may be. How ever impressive the reengineering is or it may become its just flattering to see someone is always attempting to prove someone/thing's worth.

My earlier days of owning cars, you sup-up or do heavy mods to your car bcoz after having owned it for awhile, and its paid for and you're just kinda bored with it and just wanna improve it a little to keep up with the newer cars on the block.

How things have change, I'd say if you want an M get an M, but dont ever get any other to put tons of cash on it and say its better than a M. But its flattering of crse.

sorry for the Rant but thnks for the interesting reading and discussion.
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      11-27-2006, 09:07 PM   #20
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First of all, an M3 is not every 335i owners dream car. The M mystique does nothing for me. I DID choose the 335i over the current M3 though price was no object in this range. If we are talking about "affordable" near future dream cars with limited usefulness and impressive track credentials, I'll take the new GT-R. If usability comes into the equation, I lust for an M5.

I chose the 335i over the NEXT GENERATION M3 because I don't think the best guesstimates on the new M3 specs are impressive enough to justify another $20-$25K for street use. When I do a small bit of tuning to the 335 (exhaust, chip, lsd...or about $5K) I'll be within spitting distance of the new M3 street (not track) performance-wise, and way ahead in terms of everyday usability.

I'm not dissing on M3 owners, current or future, M3's are fantastic track weapons, I'm just saying there ARE reasons for the 335i being so highly regarded.
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      11-28-2006, 12:51 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdiver68
I'm not dissing on M3 owners, current or future, M3's are fantastic track weapons, I'm just saying there ARE reasons for the 335i being so highly regarded.
M3 owners are taking it pretty well overall, and I think most of us can discern what makes an ///M car special. Personally, I'm not a track driver and I want a comfortable highway rocket. The 335 fits that bill to a tee.

If you want to see a bunch that's had their Wheatie's well and truly pissed on :mad:, check out the G35 forums. They've gotten a little defensive now that their horsepower card has been trumped...

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      11-28-2006, 02:45 PM   #22
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Haha, yeah them and the clublexus folk.
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