BMW M1, the new M3???

[BMW269]

Now the M1 is getting closer I have the feeling of a "M1 vs. M3 - WAR". To have an upbuilding discussion here are some questions and facts for thought:

Will the M1 be the "new M3"?
or
Will the M1 E82 just be faster (line and circle) than the M3 E92?

Model___________________________Transmission______ Power___Torque__________Weight (EU)______0-100 km/h
BMW 135i (E82)___________________7 DCT___________306 PS___400 Nm_________1545 kg__________5.2 sec
BMW Z4 sDrive35is (E89)____________7 DCT__________340 PS____450(+50) Nm____1600 kg__________4.8 sec
Alpina B3 S Biturbo (E92)___________6 AUTO__________400 PS___540 Nm_________1635 kg__________4.7 sec
BMW M3 (E92)____________________7 DCT___________420 PS___400 Nm_________1675 kg__________4.6 sec
so
BMW M1 (E82)____________________7 DCT___________360 PS___500 Nm_________1500 kg__________4.4 sec ???
unless
BMW M3 (E92) with S65B44_________7 DCT___________450 PS___500 Nm__________1675 kg_________4.4 sec ???

I think, the M1 E82 will be faster than the M3 E92, but just because it is more recent. The next M3 F32 will again be much faster, than both the M1 E82 and M3 E92, and also than the M1 F22, which will get a TT I4 instead of TT I6 which will go to the M3 F32.
My conclusion: Even if the M1 E82 will beat the M3 E92, it will still not be the "better" M. Even less if BMW upgrades the M3 E92 engine in 2012.

[Smokey]

[BrokenVert]

Different cars for different purposes. The M3 has evolved into a a very sporty GT. The M1 will hopefully bring back the old days of the M3...that is a no frills sports car.

So yes, I hope that the M1 will be the new M3

But you shouldn't compare the two, it would be like comparing an E36 M3 Sedan to an E39 M5. Different cars for different demographics and different purposes.

[Jake C]

I think the new 1M will feel more like the old E30 M3. I think this is the emotion that BMW and BMW M are attempting to tap into.

When you look at the limited stats that we have (and still subject to some change I would suspect) on the new 1M vs a standard 135.

A standard 135i is 3373 lbs and 300 HP and 300TQ. According to Donnie Isley at the BMW Performance Center a standard 135i runs very close to a current E92 M3 around their track.

A standard E92 M3 is 3704 lbs and 414HP and 295TQ.

So if the 1M is around 340 HP and 310 or 320 TQ and only weighs @ 3000lbs I would think it would be as quick and fast ,if not slightly quicker/faster in real world testing, as the current E92 M3 until the M3 is replaced in the following years.

- J

[Red Bread]

There's no way they shave nearly 400 pounds off of the 1er for the M. No matter how much BMW would like us all to believe any 1er will drive like an E30, it just isn't going to happen. Light cars have a feel very different than heavy cars, and no amount of power will change that.

I must just go to weird tracks, but I've never seen a 135i without massive suspension changes put up lap times any where near a similarly driven E9x M3. Provided the M1 pirates lots of the M3's suspension, I can see it be faster on the track than the M3, but it will also be significantly faster than a 135i if that happens. Gearing, weight and handling balance will all have a lot to do with how effective an M1 is relative to an M3.

The endless posturing of 1er drivers that a stock or near stock 135i is comparable or faster than an M3 is just tiresome. The squishy suspension, low effective rev range, lack of lsd, suspect brakes and inherent understeer are not track friendly.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

The endless posturing of 1er drivers that a stock or near stock 135i is comparable or faster than an M3 is just tiresome. The squishy suspension, low effective rev range, lack of lsd, suspect brakes and inherent understeer are not track friendly.

+1 Well said....

[footie]

Levi,

While I like what you have done (I did something similar a short while ago), I believe your figures for possible torque and acceleration for the 1M is a little out. For a start jumping from 450Nm to 500Nm could be possible but I doubt it will be this big, another thing, increasing the torque increases the possibility of wheelspin so unless they chose similar sized rear rubber as the M3 has then I reckon it will have trouble dipping below the figures for an M3.

One area where I have little doubt the 1M will be superior is their respective in-gear times.

[HBspeed]

"The 1er M will be powered by a high-revving, naturally aspirated straight-six producing about 340 hp—and, we are told, a very remarkable exhaust note. Think last-generation M3, and you’re close. Just when we thought exclusive engines were dead, we’re told there will be few ingredients from the corporate parts bin used on the 1-series M."

http://www.caranddriver.com/news/spi...eries_m_-spied

Article dated April 2010.

Would be awesome if it were true and would solve the problem with the m1 being faster than the m3. Seems like a win/win for everyone and would be better than holding the m1 back ala cayman vs 911. Too bad its probably not true

[///Mangler]

Originally Posted by Jake C

I think the new 1M will feel more like the old E30 M3. I think this is the emotion that BMW and BMW M are attempting to tap into.
- J

Not a chance. That feeling is not repeatable with new cars. There is too much metal/fabric/glazing/rubber/sound isolation for it to happen. Unless you have driven an E30 M3 regularly you know what I mean. They would have to build a GT race car and then add some creature comforts and maybe it would get close.

T

[BMW269]

Originally Posted by footie

Levi,

While I like what you have done (I did something similar a short while ago), I believe your figures for possible torque and acceleration for the 1M is a little out. For a start jumping from 450Nm to 500Nm could be possible but I doubt it will be this big, another thing, increasing the torque increases the possibility of wheelspin so unless they chose similar sized rear rubber as the M3 has then I reckon it will have trouble dipping below the figures for an M3.

One area where I have little doubt the 1M will be superior is their respective in-gear times.

In fact you are right, 500 Nm would be to much. If BMW M wants the have this FI engine similar to NA, the torque would be more of 450 Nm.

[jkp1187]

According to Donnie Isley at the BMW Performance Center a standard 135i runs very close to a current E92 M3 around their track.

When/where did Donnie say this? (Just curious.)

[///Mangler]

Originally Posted by jkp1187

When/where did Donnie say this? (Just curious.)

Thats because their track is a large autocross track. I only ran a few seconds slower than an E90M3 with a bone stock E30M3 at the same track event at the performance center.

T

[gts135]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

There's no way they shave nearly 400 pounds off of the 1er for the M.

If they go the route that Porsche did with the Boxster Spyder, they could get reasonably close, say 300lbs. No radio, no AC, cloth/carbon seats, lightweight wheels/tires, thinner glass, no sunroof, reduce soundproofing, lightweight exhaust, lightweight battery, carbon brakes, lighter suspension components. Because of the deletes savings partially outweighing the cost adders, the above list is well within $10k.

The E30 M3 wasn't a luxury car and neither would this. I say it's a lot closer to possible than one thinks at first, except I firmly believe there would only be an extremely small niche market.

Maybe they could produce 100 of them for a spec series but make them road legal so that the hardcores could still get one?

[ORIGIN M.]

I'd say more like the M3's new smart-ass kid-brother!

[Jake C]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

There's no way they shave nearly 400 pounds off of the 1er for the M.

I am just going on what information is out there and as I pointed out I am sure it subject to change. And here I must apologize. The target is 3300lbs as mentioned in the 1M FAQ

How much will it weigh?
3,300 lbs or 1,500 kg Link

- J

[Jake C]

Originally Posted by jkp1187

When/where did Donnie say this? (Just curious.)

When I picked up my old 335i back in 2008. I asked him what he thought of the 135i.

- J

[Jake C]

Originally Posted by ///Mangler

Not a chance. That feeling is not repeatable with new cars. There is too much metal/fabric/glazing/rubber/sound isolation for it to happen. Unless you have driven an E30 M3 regularly you know what I mean. They would have to build a GT race car and then add some creature comforts and maybe it would get close.

T

I am not saying they will succeed in replicating that feeling. But I think that is the emotion that they are attempting to invoke.

- J

[ALPINE6SPD]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

There's no way they shave nearly 400 pounds off of the 1er for the M. No matter how much BMW would like us all to believe any 1er will drive like an E30, it just isn't going to happen. Light cars have a feel very different than heavy cars, and no amount of power will change that.

I must just go to weird tracks, but I've never seen a 135i without massive suspension changes put up lap times any where near a similarly driven E9x M3. Provided the M1 pirates lots of the M3's suspension, I can see it be faster on the track than the M3, but it will also be significantly faster than a 135i if that happens. Gearing, weight and handling balance will all have a lot to do with how effective an M1 is relative to an M3.

The endless posturing of 1er drivers that a stock or near stock 135i is comparable or faster than an M3 is just tiresome. The squishy suspension, low effective rev range, lack of lsd, suspect brakes and inherent understeer are not track friendly.

+1 I sell BMW and have driven tons of miles on the road and track with both car. The M3 will run circles around a stock 135i. The 1 series M if they make it will NOT accelrate faster than an M3 I promise everyone that.

[BForbes]

Originally Posted by ALPINE6SPD

+1 I sell BMW and have driven tons of miles on the road and track with both car. The M3 will run circles around a stock 135i. The 1 series M if they make it will NOT accelrate faster than an M3 I promise everyone that.

Does it really matter though? It will be HIGHLY tunable off the dealer floor whereas the M3 is not. Anyhow, I dont think most people here expect it to be faster. Stock for stock it will probably be a drivers race.

[pDz]

i love when people bring up the e30m3.

i, too, have driven one on a track --the steering feel was excellent and it handled decently well.

but power as well as torsional rigidity were abysmal.

with that out of the way --i'd still be very keen to see a 1er with ~340hp and a true mechanical limited slip differential to see how close it could come to e9x M3 laptimes on a real track.

[///Mangler]

Originally Posted by pDz

i love when people bring up the e30m3.

i, too, have driven one on a track --the steering feel was excellent and it handled decently well.

but power as well as torsional rigidity were abysmal.

with that out of the way --i'd still be very keen to see a 1er with ~340hp and a true mechanical limited slip differential to see how close it could come to e9x M3 laptimes on a real track.

Was it stock or modified (suspension/engine)? All the E30 m3 needs is 250hp, the barn door removed (alpha N), roll bar with H&R springs/ konis and it will run with the best of them, with evenly matched drivers. Even today. That car is completely predictable at the limit. That is hard to accomplish.

They will never replicate that car in any way shape or form. That car was designed as a race chassis, then modified for the road to meet sanction rules sales numbers.

BMW will never use that reasoning again for a new model.

Just like they will never make another "muscle car".

The new 1series///M will just be another amazing car for what they can get away with as it pertains to safety and emissions, period. No new ///M Icon, sorry.

T

[pDz]

Originally Posted by ///Mangler

Was it stock or modified (suspension/engine)? All the E30 m3 needs is 250hp, the barn door removed (alpha N), roll bar with H&R springs/ konis and it will run with the best of them, with evenly matched drivers. Even today. That car is completely predictable at the limit. That is hard to accomplish.

They will never replicate that car in any way shape or form. That car was designed as a race chassis, then modified for the road to meet sanction rules sales numbers.

BMW will never use that reasoning again for a new model.

Just like they will never make another "muscle car".

The new 1series///M will just be another amazing car for what they can get away with as it pertains to safety and emissions, period. No new ///M Icon, sorry.

T

88 or 89?

bone stock except for addition of harness (5pt) for driver and passenger and a bar to lock in the harnesses in back.

i doubt it was the Evo III 2.5L, i'm pretty sure it was the 2.3 or 2.2L engine.

compared to modern standards, did not rev to the same standard as say, an NB or NC mx5 or s2000.

handled brilliantly and made up for any mistakes.

i just think it is locked into a time and place. great car.

but unlike modern M cars which are heavy and overpowered, that car had more HP in the handling than the engine.

i think any 1er could benefit from a mechanical locker and less staggering of the tires --and come pretty damn close the current m3 in laptimes.