[OpenFlash]

Hi guys,
I think everyone who have driven it is seeing that v4 isn't just a tweak of an existing tune. But now comes time to quantify what it does differently. And what you feel when you drive it.

First, here is an example of how it controls boost when driven hard. This is a 3rd to 4th gear shift taking this morning in our Stg 3 6MT car. It is running the Stg 2+ map for demonstration purposes:

Notice how ridiculously quick the boost recovers from the full lift shift. There was absolutely no power shifting involved. Manifold pressure never falls below 11psi and recovers completely without any overboosting/spiking/instability at all. I have yet to see any other tuning solution come close to doing this. Until now, boost control has been a trade-off between response time and stability. This is no longer the case with v4. You get lightening fast boost control with rock solid stability. We'll explain why later...

Here's a log of another 3rd to 4th gear shift taken this morning:



Few things of interest:
1) Even during the shift, intercooler pipe pressure never drops below 12.9psi. Again, this is a 6MT. Not a 6AT.

2) There is no "bogfix" band-aid functional. Notice how boost target drops to 0psi between shifts. And the shift, quite not slow, took a completely reasonable 0.35 seconds from full lift to full throttle. Easily reproducible by most people who can drive stick.

3) To give an example of how big our Proportional correction is, take a look at this peak DC% value. 100%. The factory DME, by comparison, runs a much smaller P value and rarely goes above 70-75%.

4) To complement the big positive P correction that would otherwise result in a big boost spike once the turbos spool up, notice the complementing negative correction that goes to a very low 27% in order to "halt" boost at the right time and right level. No where is there that secondary boost bump that is so common in higher boost 6MTs.

5) The roads were wet this morning so those little ridges you are seeing in wheel speed is wheel slippage! Even at 100mph. But one thing you may notice is there is there is no significant no-acceleration point that you usually see mid-shift.

So how can the PROcede do all this now? There are a few reasons. Most of them stemming back to when we started the redesign process of the Rev.2 unit two years ago! First, we were given the option of simplifying it's boost control hardware. One option was simply to pull the factory DME signal to ground as was done with other simpler piggybacks. Instead of reading the factory PID wastegate signal and then, using digital outputs, drive the solenoids directly with the PROcede. This simplification would have eliminated the need for a lot of hardware and brought down manufacturing cost significantly. This meant we would have to accept to compromises:

1) We would only be able to increase wastegate DC, and not decrease it.
2) We could only add offsets to an existing PID logic of the stock DME, not develop our own with more boost and higher performance in mind.

Regarding 1), one would think that in running more boost than stock, we would never need to reduce DC% below the stock value. This is not true for reasons we will discuss in another post (or thread). Another thing we would never be able to do is trigger a no-boost valet mode

Regarding 2), piggybacking on top of existing pre-made PID logic isn't ideal. Without the ability to set the Proportional, Integral and Derivative correction components, you can't optimize boost response and stability for any given set-up. And it's obvious that the PID logic that the factory DME applies is decent for the 5-6psi range. But hopelessly slow reacting and sloppy when running high boost. With v3, we attempted to isolate the factory DME's proportional corrections and scale them upwards to what better matched the high boost conditions we were running. And it worked for the most part. But even still, we could never achieve the kind of response and stability that we can now achieve with v4's stand alone PID system. Simply put, we are not simply trying to make do with what wastegate control signal is given to us. Nor are we limited by the minimum value. Those who have studied PID control logic now the inherent problems associated with running two PID systems on top of each other. You can get response. You can get stability. But you can't get both. Instead, you have to compromise somewhere in between to be safe.

But absolute management of the boost control's PID system would amount to nothing without CANbus integration. With CANbus integration, we would now be given enough engine management information to employ a cost-no-object, no-compromise boost control system. Things like actual DME boost, DME boost target and actual throttle angle are all major components to the boost control logic that we are employing. For instance, without actual and target boost information, we could not keep boost error small enough to maintain proper throttle behavior and unwanted throttle closure. And actual throttle blade angle is necessary because it's position dramatically alters TMAP pressure which is what the DME uses to determine actual boost Imagine not knowing actual throttle angle and seeing 14psi at the TMAP sensor. If throttle angle is 25%, the 14psi you read at the TMAP is NOT a representation of actual manifold boost, which will in the 6-7psi range. So there goes the ENTIRE accuracy of you boost control system. Trying to target a variable (TMAP pressure) that is dependent upon another variable (throttle angle) which is dependent upon another variable (boost error) is IMPOSSIBLE. Unless, of course, you can read this data directly off the CANbus

So know you have an idea of why v4 drives like it does. And how the game has changed. Or ended. However you want to look at it.

If you have any technical questions, feel free to ask.

So if you currently have another tune and want to see this for yourself, I'll be posting up an "competitive upgrade special" later tonight. Basically a significant discount on PROcede CANbus v4 for those who already have other competing tunes. But with the same 14 day money back trial period as always. Nothing to lose and a whole lot to gain.

Cheers,
Shiv

[dtp3347]

wow. now to take the time to understand what I just read

[blisstik]

You're not alone but it does sound like great technology. Maybe if someone would chime in and explain this to their 6 year old son (aka Google interview questions).

Originally Posted by dtp3347

wow. now to take the time to understand what I just read

[OpenFlash]

Feel free to ask questions on the parts that were unclear. The basic gist of what I posted was to explain who v4 performance is simply not possible without direct boost control and access to CANbus data. Without either one, the whole PID logic and torque targeting system falls apart. With all the special trinkets in the Rev.2 hardware, we've been sitting on a magic bullet for over a year. It just took us the past year to develop the logic and firmware to cock trigger and fire it.

Shiv

[Dackz]

How about an upgrade special for those of us about to get our 'feet' wet? LOL.

Good read, cant wait to get procede on my car! Hurry up W2's and tax info! Me need return!!!

[Ramos]

Sorry I have an unrelated question... Is V4 still plug and play for those of us who just want to run stage 1 out of the box with all the defaults?

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by Ramos

Sorry I have an unrelated question... Is V4 still plug and play for those of us who just want to run stage 1 out of the box with all the defaults?

Absolutely. No laptop required once it is shipped from us.

Shiv

[Ramos]

I already have V3, just not sure when to take the plunge and upgrade since I prefer to wait out the beta stages

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Those who have studied PID control logic know the inherent problems associated with running two PID systems on top of each other.

I have heard of this type of thing.

[Proper Motion LLC]

Originally Posted by scalbert

I have heard of this type of thing.

Do you work for him, or just do a lot of his trouble shooting?

[supracg]

^Or hes just a computer science/electrical engineer etc..

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by 09AlpineTTSedan

Do you work for him, or just do a lot of his trouble shooting?

My company sells and integrates industrial control systems which use similar control technology. This allows me to understand the concepts and implementation of the PROcede.

But I do some testing of the PROcede; just like some other beta testers.

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by supracg

^Or hes just a computer science/electrical engineer etc..

I work in those arenas.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by scalbert

I work in those arenas.

And we are still using your TMAP voltage-to-Boost pressure calibrations from when you did your tune comparison tech a while back.

Any chance of another technical comparison test happening with these new generations of tunes?

shiv

[TMR]

To simplify what shiv said... The V4 makes the car drive MUCH better than stock, Has PLENTY of power, Many usable features and is SAFE.

[MSPORTWORLD]

Thanks for the great info Shiv. I know some people, after experiencing V3 in my car, that will take you up on that special pricing offer.

[adrian@vishnu]

I just wanted to clarify a point that may confuse some people.

Both Vishnu and BMS have used PID systems in the past. But the PID system Shiv is referring to is very different to the PID systems used in the past. PID systems in the past were based around using a PID controller to keep the DME happy with its inputs and outputs in order to prevent fault codes from over/under boost and over/under boost output duty cycle. This was used on V3 Procede and I am quite certain similar was/is done on JB3/4.

With the V4, the Procede uses the CAN data to provide the DME with EXACTLY what it wants to see (straight away with next to no delay) with no need for PID controller to try and find eventually what it wants (meanwhile the throttle reacting to the PID). The PID in the V4 is a direct control of the boost and can work in isolation without having to worry about keeping the DME happy. It provides the capability for us to push the bounds of what the mechanical hardware can do without having to worry about the DME preventing us from doing something the mechanical hardware is prefectly capable of handling.

Adrian

[GeorgiaTech335coupe]

Originally Posted by supracg

^Or hes just a computer science/electrical engineer etc..

Control systems are not just limited to those types of engineering!

[Dackz]

Originally Posted by TMR

To simplify what shiv said... The V4 makes the car drive MUCH better than stock, Has PLENTY of power, Many usable features and is SAFE.

I like these terms

[digi]

Wow, no offense to you at all shiv-I respect the depth of knowledge and the time you put into explaining your product, but adrian just laid it out in a much simpler way with about one quarter of the words.

[cn555ic]

Hey nothing wrong with two versions....Shivs long version and Adrians "CLIFF NOTE" versions.....I got by high school from buying "cliff notes" lol

[OpenFlash]

As an automotive journalist years ago, I got paid by the word. Old habits die hard

Shiv