[Curt2000]

With all the hype that has been created by vendors about upgraded stock turbos I think its time for us to confront the fact that the TD03 is simply too small to upgrade. Ive talked with Blouch Turbo and they confirmed with me that they had pursued a porting/upgraded impeller effort on the N54 twins but found that the effort was futile for several reasons.

1. You cannot port the inlet because the charge pipe ID is matched and porting will result in turbulent airflow due to the rapid diameter change.

2. Clipping a turbine wheel can result in high end gains but come at a cost of overall turbo efficiency, the td03 wheel is so small that clipping actually results in a loss of power.

3. The stock headers and turbine housings are are impossible to port.

4. Unless you produce a custom piece, there are no options out there for upgraded compressor wheels. Furthermore they said any gains by an upgraded wheel would be marginal at best and definitely not worth the investment.

If the N54 had been equipped with turbos from the TD04 family then it would be a much different story but it was not so we are out of luck.

I think that all of the vendors who have made all kinds of claims and generated hysteria have found these truths out the hard way...one vendor going as far as removing a 100+ post thread. I ask that these companies not be embarrassed by finding out that the stock snails are dogs no matter what you do to them, instead they should disclose their findings and educate the community on why their efforts didn't work then move on to ditching the stockers and trying for a turbo kit that will actually work. A hypothesis is just as useful if it is proven wrong, it just means you are that much closer to the RIGHT answer.

[GreenPlease]

You know, I'm glad you started this thread. I think we all have to be honest with ourselves on this one. With that said, does anyone recall what ASR did with their turbo upgrade? Was it just an upgraded CHRA?

[Curt2000]

Not sure but I think they hit a lot of their numbers on glory dyno runs with meth and very aggressive maps.

[Curt2000]

Originally Posted by Nick.CBR

This is the only one that I know is in progress - I'm not sure when it's actually going to become for real (sounds like he's pretty close) though... It will be interesting to see the results.

Rob Beck turbos:

http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5029

Nick

Sounds like the same story heard many times on this forum...Hopefully he will produce real results and not disappear into the night after he starts the testing phase.

[GreenPlease]

^+1

[Slidewayz]

Custom manifold...how hard could that be?

There are plenty of other cars that had to have new manifolds fabb'ed in order to hook up decent snails.

[vgame64]

I believe you have hit an accurate but sore subject matter for us N54 335 owners. I am not basing this on fact, but merely from the data/testimonials you have aggregated along with the mere fact that any news from the turbo upgrading vendors has been scarce.

With many other cars, I have seen faster turnaround time on upgraded turbo R&D and manufacturing. But we mustn't forget that the N54 (and BMW going turbo) is a new platform and serious companies such as HPF have just begun work recently. If you recall, it took them a good bit of time to come up with E46 M3 solutions but once they did, more and more upgrades rolled out. Also, I predict that HPF won't just release an upgraded turbo but all of the supporting modifications needed as well. These sort of radical amount of R&D is too time-consuming and costly for small aftermarket companies and the cost of such a comprehensive solution (hopefully with a new HPFP ) will be cost prohibitive for most. The idea of a $5000 upgraded turbo package looks more like a pipe dream now.

I think most aftermarket manufacturers didn't accurately predict the modding fervor the 335 would bring. The piggyback companies that moved quickly (Terry & Shiv) in a way held off any companies from creating a turbo upgrade by their persistence in defeating BMW's anti-tuning measures to extract an ever-increasing amount of extra and reliable power from the stock turbo system.

For many companies, creating upgraded turbos wouldn't see as much immediate financial reward as opposed to downpipes, intercoolers, piggybacks, methanol systems, etc. By the time a final product is complete, the majority of N54 owners (leased car owned by folks who want to spend a small sum of $ for lots of power) will have moved on to a new platform (N55 once it gets hacked?) and their could be a good chance all the money spent on R&D would be wasted.

Also, as you stated, the TD03 isn't easy to work with; add in the custom manifold, lack of space to work with, and the other issues and I think we will have to wait a while.

Ultimately, I think most N54 owners are happy to see ~400whp so easily with just bolt-ons...

Here is an example of a car that came out around the same time as the 335 and has seen a faster mod cycle: GT-R

[Mookie469]

Subscribed +1

[Curt2000]

With the real estate issues under the hood, companies will have to come up with some pretty fancy plumbing to accommodate a bigger turbo...not to say its not worth it...but if your going to pay the money for such a manifold then it better be for considerable gains.

Now a custom manifold that occupies the same amount of space as the stock set up but accommodates TD04's...may be on to something there, but then you have to worry about the ID on the charge pipes so you have to come up with a new intake system too.

I dont think there is any way around it, a turbo upgrade will have to be a complete kit, Manifolds/Turbos/intake system/downpipes/tune and most likely upgraded fuel system which all = big$$$

[vgame64]

Originally Posted by Curt2000

I dont think there is any way around it, a turbo upgrade will have to be a complete kit, Manifolds/Turbos/intake system/downpipes/tune and most likely upgraded fuel system which all = big$$$

Exactly, and if you hunt around for the thread...this is essentially what HPF alluded to; they will take their time and create a comprehensive, but expensive kit to release (and in multiple stages of power).

I most likely will have moved onto the more $$ friendly/reliable option of the next gen turbo ///M3 by the time this is released.

[LostMarine]

Originally Posted by Curt2000

Sounds like the same story heard many times on this forum...Hopefully he will produce real results and not disappear into the night after he starts the testing phase.

theres a reason why all that info is over there and not here. thats a technical board with more tech discussions. If it can be done, this guy will be the one to do it..

[Curt2000]

Originally Posted by vgame64

Exactly, and if you hunt around for the thread...this is essentially what HPF alluded to; they will take their time and create a comprehensive, but expensive kit to release (and in multiple stages of power).

I most likely will have moved onto the more $$ friendly/reliable option of the next gen turbo ///M3 by the time this is released.

And that's a tough business model...because you are talking a high amount of investment for a product that you know will cost so much that you will have a very limited customer base. I'm glad that HPF has the resources and vigor to undertake such an effort.

[GreenPlease]

FWIW, the N54 is not that limited of a customer base. In a few years N54 powered E9Xs and E82s will be had for ~$20,000. Lot's of people will pick them up and upgrade the hell out of them (like dropping $20,000 on engine mods) and end up with a 600whp daily driver for $40,000. Those are the people I'd imagine HPF is targeting. Probably a target market of 100-200 people, so they can probably make the numbers work.

[dlbrooks18]

Originally Posted by GreenPlease

FWIW, the N54 is not that limited of a customer base. In a few years N54 powered E9Xs and E82s will be had for ~$20,000. Lot's of people will pick them up and upgrade the hell out of them (like dropping $20,000 on engine mods) and end up with a 600whp daily driver for $40,000. Those are the people I'd imagine HPF is targeting. Probably a target market of 100-200 people, so they can probably make the numbers work.

look at this thread and notice what's in the shop 8 or 9 photo's down, a 335!... HPF is taking their time to develop a single turbo upgrade that will produce 600+whp, as most of us have already read.. that's ok, it gives us all time to save up, and I should mention that HPF offers financing too:

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=734979

[dlbrooks18]

Originally Posted by vgame64

I believe you have hit an accurate but sore subject matter for us N54 335 owners. I am not basing this on fact, but merely from the data/testimonials you have aggregated along with the mere fact that any news from the turbo upgrading vendors has been scarce.

With many other cars, I have seen faster turnaround time on upgraded turbo R&D and manufacturing. But we mustn't forget that the N54 (and BMW going turbo) is a new platform and serious companies such as HPF have just begun work recently. If you recall, it took them a good bit of time to come up with E46 M3 solutions but once they did, more and more upgrades rolled out. Also, I predict that HPF won't just release an upgraded turbo but all of the supporting modifications needed as well. These sort of radical amount of R&D is too time-consuming and costly for small aftermarket companies and the cost of such a comprehensive solution (hopefully with a new HPFP ) will be cost prohibitive for most. The idea of a $5000 upgraded turbo package looks more like a pipe dream now.

I think most aftermarket manufacturers didn't accurately predict the modding fervor the 335 would bring. The piggyback companies that moved quickly (Terry & Shiv) in a way held off any companies from creating a turbo upgrade by their persistence in defeating BMW's anti-tuning measures to extract an ever-increasing amount of extra and reliable power from the stock turbo system.

For many companies, creating upgraded turbos wouldn't see as much immediate financial reward as opposed to downpipes, intercoolers, piggybacks, methanol systems, etc. By the time a final product is complete, the majority of N54 owners (leased car owned by folks who want to spend a small sum of $ for lots of power) will have moved on to a new platform (N55 once it gets hacked?) and their could be a good chance all the money spent on R&D would be wasted.

Also, as you stated, the TD03 isn't easy to work with; add in the custom manifold, lack of space to work with, and the other issues and I think we will have to wait a while.

Ultimately, I think most N54 owners are happy to see ~400whp so easily with just bolt-ons...

Here is an example of a car that came out around the same time as the 335 and has seen a faster mod cycle: GT-R

nice post! totally agree with you.. reality is that 400whp combined with 400lbs of tq is awesome! .. I think an LSD is the must have mod to complete any setup until we see a single turbo upgrade that pushes the envelope..

[Alpina_B3_Lux]

Originally Posted by Curt2000

With all the hype that has been created by vendors about upgraded stock turbos I think its time for us to confront the fact that the TD03 is simply too small to upgrade. Ive talked with Blouch Turbo and they confirmed with me that they had pursued a porting/upgraded impeller effort on the N54 twins but found that the effort was futile for several reasons.

Fortunately for us, this does not seem to be the case. I know of at least one turbo upgrade that is (i) working, (ii) producing a considerable increase in hp and tq without meth and (iii) will be available within a short period of time. I'm talking about the upgrade that has been extensively documented in the following thread: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=318749

It's been in intensive testing for the last weeks and months, and I would expect more information on the results to be available around March. Of course you can always pop a mail to E92Fan or Turbo Dynamics if you'd like to know more immediately.

Furthermore, I also know that the Racing Dynamics turbo upgrade is available and working. A member in a German car forum has just ordered his 135i to be upgraded with RD, more info should be available in a few weeks when he receives his car back.

Lastly, the turbo upgrade that Rob Beck is working on will also work, he's just testing and developing the wastegate upgrade (currently working for parts that have been ordered), all the rest seems to be finished.

In summary I would expect several products in this vein to be available until summer.

Alpina_B3_Lux

[oddjob2021]

also dont forget ASR's turbos, been running on their 135 for a year now. pushing 540 wheel on race gas. wait till v4 is implemented toward the upp'd turbos, it gives me shivers thinking of the fun

[GreenPlease]

In summary I would expect several products in this vein to be available until summer

I hope you're right.

[e.n335]

Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux

Fortunately for us, this does not seem to be the case. I know of at least one turbo upgrade that is (i) working, (ii) producing a considerable increase in hp and tq without meth and (iii) will be available within a short period of time. I'm talking about the upgrade that has been extensively documented in the following thread: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=318749

It's been in intensive testing for the last weeks and months, and I would expect more information on the results to be available around March. Of course you can always pop a mail to E92Fan or Turbo Dynamics if you'd like to know more immediately ...

Alpina_B3_Lux

I called Trubo Dynamics and had a little discussion about this upgrade. It's currently tested on the Nürburgring and looks very promising. The company is very serious and will release the upgrade after testing is finished.

I CAN wait until more information will be available. Pricing is moderate.

Cheers,
Eugen

[E92Fan]

Originally Posted by e.n335

I called Turbo Dynamics and had a little discussion about this upgrade. It's currently tested on the Nürburgring and looks very promising. The company is very serious and will release the upgrade after testing is finished.

I CAN wait until more information will be available. Pricing is moderate.

Cheers,
Eugen

It is currently being tested - the modified turbos have now done over 3500 miles of road testing, and completed two days worth of track testing at Brands Hatch in the UK.

The car will be visiting the Nurburgring in ten days' time to enable some endurance testing to be done with long durations of boost demand, and on the return to the UK the turbos will be stripped down for examination, and thereafter a further upgrade with a modified and enlarged exhaust turbine wheel will be undertaken. This modification will retain full oil and water cooling and will be subject to further performance testing.

The fundamental performance of the upgraded turbos has now been established and it really is something staggering. Driveability is excellent, with linear power delivery right the way to 6800rpm and huge amounts of torque available low down. Throttle response is excellent, though not in the realms of a normally-aspirated engine (as one would expect). Wastegate rattle is completely eliminated as the bushes have been refined since initial installation to get the tolerances absolutely exact. Seals and bearings are in perfect order with no sign of seepage or heat-induced distortion.

I started a thread on this previously and have deliberately kept it low-key with updates until the testing is complete.

[LostMarine]

Originally Posted by oddjob2021

also dont forget ASR's turbos, been running on their 135 for a year now. pushing 540 wheel on race gas. wait till v4 is implemented toward the upp'd turbos, it gives me shivers thinking of the fun

Are you referring to their race dedicated 135? the one that gets rebuilt every couple of days/weeks? not starting anything, just curious if thats the same one you are referring to.

[oddjob2021]

Originally Posted by LostMarine

Are you referring to their race dedicated 135? the one that gets rebuilt every couple of days/weeks? not starting anything, just curious if thats the same one you are referring to.

rebuilt? are you referring to the block and head? because if so you should seriously check your sources as that is completely false. whatever rumor you heard here is the truth: the car is down atm because of a module upgrade, i dont know the details. it has nothing to do with the turbos or engine, its all the ecu.

anyway I would love to hear who you heard it from that it gets "rebuilt" every week. the car is not a race dedicated car by any means, Abid's brother daily drives it, of course without racegas.