BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > E90/E92 M3 Technical Topics > Track / Autocross / Dragstrip / Driving Techniques
 
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      04-04-2009, 08:55 PM   #1
lucid
Major General
lucid's Avatar
United_States
374
Rep
8,033
Posts

Drives: E30 M3; Expedition
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

PSCs in the rain = kind of Fail!

OK, so this is dumb point, but there is a track story around it, so I guess read at your own risk of wasting time.

So, I call up NASA and tell them I am about to sign up for HPDE at Lime Rock on the 18th in group 3. He asks a few questions and says that's fine. He then asks if I drove at Lime Rock before. I say no. He then says they won't have instructors for group 3, and I should have one to show me around, and advises me to sign up for group 2 on the 4th as well since group 2 would get instructors. I say great idea and sign up for that as well.

Then I look at the weather forecast, which means close to nothing around here, and see that it might rain. One day it says it will rain the next day it says it will be sunny and warm. I have only two tire options, PSCs or BFG R1s, so I am kind of worried.

Then, I wake up and it looks dry. Weather forecast for the day is up and down. I say screw it I can't wait I've been waiting for 6 months through the most depressing winter ever, and I take out the rear seats (5 min job now), load the BFGs in the back (they fit nicely side by side without any visual obstruction), and drive out there on the PSCs. Of course, it is raining and won't stop. It is also 4C. I stare at the track to see if there is any standing water and there isn't. I go talk to an organizer and he doesn't really say anything significant apart from go try it out see how it is. Yeah! Of course, I am all worked up and convince myself I should, and I do.

It also turns out they don't have any instructors for me, so I am simply asked to follow the guy in front of me as he has an instructor on board. It turns out more than half of the people in group 2 don't know what they are doing. (I clearly don't know know what I am doing when it comes to tire choice). So, I politely do not follow his advice or the guy in front of me as he keeps on missing every other apex and brakes at the wrong place, etc. I go with the flow for a couple of laps trying to warm the tires. I test the brakes just a bit down the hill, and the car is all over the place despite going in a straight line. No standing water, but wet and raining. No tires. AWD cars with decent tires are having a field day. I can see them grin on my rear view mirror. I think of Footie, then T-Bone, and then this thread, and almost run into an Audi (joke). I give a few point bys, but I am doing OK for the most part, but man the car is all over the place. I go easy on the turns, but you do need to slow down, which is the real iffy part, especially down the straight at high speed. The session ends and I am simply relieved. But it doesn't end all that lightly. I notice a bunch of RWD cars having major issues. I identify 3 guys who don't seem right and stay away.

In the next session, to their credit, they give me an excellent instructor, who turns out to be a great guy, and gives me solid advice, and we work the course together. I pick up a bunch of stuff and feel better about the whole thing, but the car is still all over the place (there is still no standing water though, so the reptilian part of my brain says, why not!). All of those 3 guys spin their cars. One of them twice, kicking mud on the track as he spins, fortunately onto the grass. Another guy puts his car into the wall bad coming out of the downhill. It looks totalled.

In the next session, the guy who already spun is all over my bumper so I let him go. A couple of laps later, who spins again, this time in turn 1 and there is mud and grass all over on the inside. The debris actually somehow turn out to be entertaining as it sits there the entire session, and we have to drive around it and take a different line. Then, it stops raining, and the track starts to really clear up. The line is bone dry, but the danger is leaving it for even a few inches into the wet track as the PSCs can't handle that difference at all. I start going faster each lap, and each lap gets drier. The last 2-3 laps, I can actually start feeling the tires bite and give them a good push all around. The RS19s start to rock. The second instructor says, this car has some really nice brakes (coming from a E46 M3), and I say I am not even on the pedal. The AWD cars, including a GTR, start falling pray. I end the day with a grin on my face.

I still don't know if this, driving with the PSCs, was a dumb thing to do overall. It probably was...Actually...it surely is. I would not recommend it, but I guess you could have figured that out without reading this.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      04-04-2009, 09:09 PM   #2
tallycoolies
Private First Class
tallycoolies's Avatar
United_States
35
Rep
192
Posts

Drives: 08 Interlagos Blue M3
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: PA

iTrader: (2)

It was a pleasure meeting you ~ The instructor was very nice and I really had a great time tracking for the first time. Good think you told me not to swap the brakes and the fluids till after my first track day. Hope to see u again in other tracks~! Thanks~
__________________

E92 M3 Coupe\Interlagos Blue\6MT\18"\Technology PK\Premium Sound\Moon Roof\H&R Sport Springs\UUC SSK\GP Thunder 8500K H8 & 12000K HID Xenon\MB Grill\VSR Ti Exhaust\AA X-pipe\AA ECU\AA pulley\VSR CF rear diffuser\VSR CF boot lid\Painted Reflector\Gruppe M CAI\VSR Frontlip\Volk TE-37 19'
Appreciate 0
      04-04-2009, 09:16 PM   #3
lucid
Major General
lucid's Avatar
United_States
374
Rep
8,033
Posts

Drives: E30 M3; Expedition
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

It was nice to meet you as well. Your TE37s look great btw!
__________________
Appreciate 0
      04-04-2009, 09:54 PM   #4
dawgdog
Colonel
148
Rep
2,278
Posts

Drives: 2015 M3, 2016 GT3
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Seattle, Wa.

iTrader: (0)

Great write up; well written and entertaining. I am signed up for a BMW CCA track day at Pacific Raceways near Seattle on the 16th, and I'm considering going with the Alfa club the following week. My big concern is rain. I am still running on my stock tires, and though they should hold up better in the rain than the PSCs, I am still concerned. In my total history of 4 track days I have seen 3 cars with significant damage, two of them totalled. I don't want mine to be one of them.
__________________
2015 f80 M3, 2016 GT3
Appreciate 0
      04-04-2009, 10:11 PM   #5
lucid
Major General
lucid's Avatar
United_States
374
Rep
8,033
Posts

Drives: E30 M3; Expedition
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgdog View Post
Great write up; well written and entertaining. I am signed up for a BMW CCA track day at Pacific Raceways near Seattle on the 16th, and I'm considering going with the Alfa club the following week. My big concern is rain. I am still running on my stock tires, and though they should hold up better in the rain than the PSCs, I am still concerned. In my total history of 4 track days I have seen 3 cars with significant damage, two of them totalled. I don't want mine to be one of them.
A few forum members have reported on the wet track performance of PS2s (skierman64 and kingleh posted vids I think). Appearently, PS2s are great in the rain, so you have a good setup if you decide to go.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      04-05-2009, 11:42 AM   #6
sayemthree
Major General
sayemthree's Avatar
594
Rep
5,448
Posts

Drives: ‘20 X3mC ‘20 Raptor ‘04 X3 6mt
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: usa so cal , AZ

iTrader: (0)

since your choice was a PSC vs a BFG R1 you probably made a good choice considering the PSC has more tread. R tires have good mechanical grip in the wet, its the hydroplaning (lack of tread and water evacuation) you have to watch out for.

did your instructors talk about driving off the line a bit to avoid areas with oil and rubber build up? they tend to be more slick in the rain?
__________________
Fore Sale Rare 6 speed manual X3 3.oi silver over grey. PM me
Appreciate 0
      04-05-2009, 11:52 AM   #7
lucid
Major General
lucid's Avatar
United_States
374
Rep
8,033
Posts

Drives: E30 M3; Expedition
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sayemthree View Post
since your choice was a PSC vs a BFG R1 you probably made a good choice considering the PSC has more tread. R tires have good mechanical grip in the wet, its the hydroplaning (lack of tread and water evacuation) you have to watch out for.

did your instructors talk about driving off the line a bit to avoid areas with oil and rubber build up? they tend to be more slick in the rain?
yes, that's why convinced myself it would be ok as long there was no standing water. braking at high speed 110+ mph proved to be problematic despite the lack of standing water. at that point whatever water there is on the track is probably enough for hydroplaning, especially when the tires are fully loaded.

i tried driving off the line slightly on some low speed corners, but i happened to find more grip closer to the line where there was less water.

another issue was the cold weather. 4c air in conjunction with the cold water. in my experience, PSCs do not like being cold at all. they did warm up eventually, but that took some time.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      04-05-2009, 11:52 AM   #8
Gearhead999s
Major General
Gearhead999s's Avatar
812
Rep
7,888
Posts

Drives: RR Velar R=Dynamic M2C R1200GS
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Toronto

iTrader: (0)

The stock 19'Pilot Sport 2's rock in the rainMuch faster than the unshaved Toyo R888's that I started on the rain,as they they seemed to have very little side grip but did accelerate and brake quite good.The PS2's also wore quite a bit in the rain but it was worth it for the grip that I got.
Appreciate 0
      04-06-2009, 07:09 PM   #9
kieranlavin
New Member
0
Rep
27
Posts

Drives: other
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: other

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
AWD cars with decent tires are having a field day. I can see them grin on my rear view mirror.
I was instructing someone with an STi in the green/HPDE1 group and that was a lot of fun in the wet

Quote:
Another guy puts his car into the wall bad coming out of the downhill. It looks totalled.
Unfortunately I was also instructing this car in the white/HPDE2 group. The student was pretty conservative but came down the downhill a little too fast and gave gas a little too soon. Fortunately though the car is not totalled and will be back up and running again soon.
Appreciate 0
      04-06-2009, 08:04 PM   #10
lucid
Major General
lucid's Avatar
United_States
374
Rep
8,033
Posts

Drives: E30 M3; Expedition
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by kieranlavin View Post
Unfortunately I was also instructing this car in the white/HPDE2 group. The student was pretty conservative but came down the downhill a little too fast and gave gas a little too soon. Fortunately though the car is not totalled and will be back up and running again soon.
Well, if he was driving conservatively, then I must be thinking about another Mustang that wasn't driving so conservatively.

Good to hear the car was not totalled. The engine looked severely impacted to us from the timing tower, and that's why we thought it was a write off. So, were you in the car when this happened? I thought the instructor in that car hurt his neck and had to be taken to the hospital. That's what they told us at the least as we were waiting for the ambulance to come back. Are you OK? I hope so...
__________________
Appreciate 0
      04-07-2009, 06:22 AM   #11
kieranlavin
New Member
0
Rep
27
Posts

Drives: other
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: other

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
Well, if he was driving conservatively, then I must be thinking about another Mustang that wasn't driving so conservatively.
Definitely a different Mustang. As far as I remember there were 3 Mustangs there on Saturday. One black Shelby GT500 and two silver ones. As a matter of fact, I tried flagging down the other silver one before that session and realized it wasn't the right guy. The student I had in the Mustang I know and have instructed before. We went out the first session and it was his first time in this car and his first time at Limerock. The second session he didn't wind up going out but the third we did and it was definitely more wet than the first session. Because of that, he was really taking it easy and building speed lap after lap. And I don't mean a lot. He might've been picking up .5 seconds per lap but he was definitely getting it down and doing better each lap. He just carried too much speed down that downhill. Did alright slowing the car down to a speed that he would be ABLE to make the turn but then got on the gas before the car was straightened out. The back end went left, he steered left, but it was too late. The car didn't react to any inputs at that point and we were on the grass along for the ride.

Quote:
Good to hear the car was not totalled. The engine looked severely impacted to us from the timing tower, and that's why we thought it was a write off. So, were you in the car when this happened? I thought the instructor in that car hurt his neck and had to be taken to the hospital. That's what they told us at the least as we were waiting for the ambulance to come back. Are you OK? I hope so...
Somehow I don't think the engine was affected much at all. I didn't notice any of the typical steam from a busted radiator or anything. The only "smoke" was from the airbags. I think the fact that it wasn't a head-on collision helped too. It was offset on the passenger side front corner.

Yes, I was in the car when it happened. I did hurt my neck and I was taken to the hospital (sorry, I didn't find out until afterward that you all had to wait for the ambulance to come back The first people over asked if we were ok and I have a pre-existing condition with my neck so I mentioned it. From there, everyone was precaution this and precaution that. They had me on a backboard with my whole head immobilized for 2 hours. I was going crazy. Worst part was that right before that session I went to the food shack and got a sandwich. It was sitting on the center console in my car waiting till the end of that session for me to eat it! I was starving. They did a ct scan and didn't find anything so they gave me a prescription muscle relaxant and off I went. I even caught up with the student and his father on the way home and stopped to chat a bit. My neck's still a bit sore but better. Now this morning I'm finding my knee is sore as is my wrist. I think they might've been hit by the airbag. I'll be ok and back instructing for the 5/2 event at Pocono East and hopefully the student will get right back in the car again too. As I told him, the HPDE events are all about learning and learning from your mistakes. Unfortunately for him though the mistake had a major result. Usually the mistake is just getting a little loose, going off track in the grass (and not hitting anything), or a spin. He needs to just keep the accident in the back of his head and get right back in the car and keep going.

I guess I should add some M3 content, huh? His father owns an M3

Last edited by kieranlavin; 04-07-2009 at 06:22 AM.. Reason: had to add M3 content
Appreciate 0
      04-07-2009, 07:12 AM   #12
lucid
Major General
lucid's Avatar
United_States
374
Rep
8,033
Posts

Drives: E30 M3; Expedition
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Great to hear your neck is just sore, and there doesn't seem to be anything seriously wrong. Sorry they makde you starve for 2 hours waiting to be scanned!

The neck thing worries me. I ended up posting an inquiry about the R3 device after I got home, but didn't get any responses (one of the organizers mentioned it when they were getting you out of the car). Do you have any opinions on that?

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=248351

I'll be back at Limerock on the 18th. If it looks like it will rain, I have the PSCs swapped out with some spare PS2s I've been sitting on.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      04-10-2009, 01:58 AM   #13
sayemthree
Major General
sayemthree's Avatar
594
Rep
5,448
Posts

Drives: ‘20 X3mC ‘20 Raptor ‘04 X3 6mt
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: usa so cal , AZ

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
Great to hear your neck is just sore, and there doesn't seem to be anything seriously wrong. Sorry they makde you starve for 2 hours waiting to be scanned!

The neck thing worries me. I ended up posting an inquiry about the R3 device after I got home, but didn't get any responses (one of the organizers mentioned it when they were getting you out of the car). Do you have any opinions on that?

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=248351

I'll be back at Limerock on the 18th. If it looks like it will rain, I have the PSCs swapped out with some spare PS2s I've been sitting on.
still not sure I agree that street rubber is better in the rain. unless its a total deluge.
__________________
Fore Sale Rare 6 speed manual X3 3.oi silver over grey. PM me
Appreciate 0
      04-10-2009, 07:02 AM   #14
lucid
Major General
lucid's Avatar
United_States
374
Rep
8,033
Posts

Drives: E30 M3; Expedition
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sayemthree View Post
still not sure I agree that street rubber is better in the rain. unless its a total deluge.
setting the other stuff on compound and tire temp aside, it sure was scary for the car to lose traction under braking in a straight line at high speed and step to the side. i guess you are saying that would have happened even if i had PS2s on. i doubt that it would have happened that easily to say the least. i'll be using PS2s if i drive in the rain again (if it rains on the 18th), so then i'll have a chance to compare...
__________________
Appreciate 0
      04-12-2009, 09:23 AM   #15
sc_tr0jan_m3
Lieutenant Colonel
sc_tr0jan_m3's Avatar
515
Rep
1,729
Posts

Drives: 2018 Grigio Telesto F80 M3 DCT
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Dallas, TX

iTrader: (0)

wow... sounds like you had quite a handful that day... glad you got through it safely tho!!
__________________


2018 Grigio Telesto F80 M3 DCT | :: Bone Stock ::
2004 Titanium Silver E46 M3 6 Speed | :: Track Car ::
Appreciate 0
      04-19-2009, 03:05 AM   #16
sayemthree
Major General
sayemthree's Avatar
594
Rep
5,448
Posts

Drives: ‘20 X3mC ‘20 Raptor ‘04 X3 6mt
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: usa so cal , AZ

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
setting the other stuff on compound and tire temp aside, it sure was scary for the car to lose traction under braking in a straight line at high speed and step to the side. i guess you are saying that would have happened even if i had PS2s on. i doubt that it would have happened that easily to say the least. i'll be using PS2s if i drive in the rain again (if it rains on the 18th), so then i'll have a chance to compare...
I talked to a lot of people that club race and they run on full treat R comp tires in the wet, not street tires.
__________________
Fore Sale Rare 6 speed manual X3 3.oi silver over grey. PM me
Appreciate 0
      04-19-2009, 07:30 AM   #17
lucid
Major General
lucid's Avatar
United_States
374
Rep
8,033
Posts

Drives: E30 M3; Expedition
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sayemthree View Post
I talked to a lot of people that club race and they run on full treat R comp tires in the wet, not street tires.
That's good to know. I measured the tread depth on my PSCs a week after that event, and it turns out I had about 2/32"-3/32" left depending on where you measure. I thought I had at least 4/32". The tire comes with 6/32", and I didn't have it shaved. I can't imagine having used much tread during the event at all, so limited tread depth that might have been a factor. Is the tread patter for the R compound tires they are using in the rain different than than the pattern they are running in the dry? Also, I haven't raced, but I must assume one puts heat in the tires before the race and maintains the temp during the wet race. You can't do that in an HPDE where you only have 20 min per session, and the car is sitting and cooling down completely in the cold (3C like it was 2 weeks ago) in between sessions, and the track temps are cold as well, so I still do not think it is a good idea to go out on PSCs with 50% or less tread. I don't know how they would do under the same conditions if they had full tread. I spun the car once last year with the PSCs 4 laps into a dry session. The air temp was just above freezing, and I had thought I had put enough heat into the tire, but I was wrong (I was pushing it 7/10th, so that wasn't the problem and my instructor said it was the cold tires). It was snap oversteer and I couldn't counter steer into it although I tired...

Check out the description of the Hoosier wet radials. The compound is clearly different.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires....e1=yes&place=3

I understand you are not saying that one would not benefit from specific wet condition compound. You are saying that an R compound tire would have as much or more "mechanical" grip than a street tire in the wet. If someone with racing experience or significant wet tracking experience would like to chime in, it would be great as I would like to learn more about this.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      04-19-2009, 09:47 AM   #18
Gearhead999s
Major General
Gearhead999s's Avatar
812
Rep
7,888
Posts

Drives: RR Velar R=Dynamic M2C R1200GS
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Toronto

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucid View Post
That's good to know. I measured the tread depth on my PSCs a week after that event, and it turns out I had about 2/32"-3/32" left depending on where you measure. I thought I had at least 4/32". The tire comes with 6/32", and I didn't have it shaved. I can't imagine having used much tread during the event at all, so limited tread depth that might have been a factor. Is the tread patter for the R compound tires they are using in the rain different than than the pattern they are running in the dry? Also, I haven't raced, but I must assume one puts heat in the tires before the race and maintains the temp during the wet race. You can't do that in an HPDE where you only have 20 min per session, and the car is sitting and cooling down completely in the cold (3C like it was 2 weeks ago) in between sessions, and the track temps are cold as well, so I still do not think it is a good idea to go out on PSCs with 50% or less tread. I don't know how they would do under the same conditions if they had full tread. I spun the car once last year with the PSCs 4 laps into a dry session. The air temp was just above freezing, and I had thought I had put enough heat into the tire, but I was wrong (I was pushing it 7/10th, so that wasn't the problem and my instructor said it was the cold tires). It was snap oversteer and I couldn't counter steer into it although I tired...

Check out the description of the Hoosier wet radials. The compound is clearly different.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires....e1=yes&place=3

I understand you are not saying that one would not benefit from specific wet condition compound. You are saying that an R compound tire would have as much or more "mechanical" grip than a street tire in the wet. If someone with racing experience or significant wet tracking experience would like to chime in, it would be great as I would like to learn more about this.
Thoose Hoosiers are not a DOT legal tire,unlike the R compounds that we use for the most part.Those Hoosiers will also last about 2 laps in truly dry conditions.

OOPS correction!Those are different than the Hoosier rains that we used to run on

I have raced in the rain quite a bit and have used mostly street tires not dedicated wet tires.I have started on fresh shaved @3/32 s and that was disaster because of standing water.If there is no standing water I think the compound has more to do with grip than the tread pattern.But I have seen people on slicks go amazingly well in some pretty aweful conditions also.For myself I will just try to use newer street tires that do not have any track heat cycles on them and and leave my R's in the paddock if it is real wet.

Last edited by Gearhead999s; 04-19-2009 at 10:05 AM..
Appreciate 0
      04-19-2009, 02:59 PM   #19
JAJ
Captain
80
Rep
961
Posts

Drives: 2014 Shelby GT500
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC

iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gearhead999s View Post
I have raced in the rain quite a bit and have used mostly street tires not dedicated wet tires.I have started on fresh shaved @3/32 s and that was disaster because of standing water. If there is no standing water I think the compound has more to do with grip than the tread pattern.But I have seen people on slicks go amazingly well in some pretty aweful conditions also.For myself I will just try to use newer street tires that do not have any track heat cycles on them and and leave my R's in the paddock if it is real wet.
I agree completely with your comment on compounds and rain. I had a relatively unpleasant trip last weekend to Portland International Raceway (Oregon) and what messed it up was a poor choice of tires for the conditions.

I have to drive 300 miles to get there, so tire choices are tricky. My original plan was to take my new Nitto NT-01's (on a set of 4 OEM 18" rears) with me in the back seat and trunk and drive down on a stock set of 19" PS2's that I'd run on if it rained. Well, my wife (for the first time ever) decided to come along, so I decided to leave the Nitto's behind to make room for luggage. Because I didn't want to run on stock PS2's if the day was dry, I compromised and put on my older set of Bridgestone 265/35 RE-01R's on 9.5" rims. BIG mistake.

I don't know whether it was the heat cycling (two full seasons of 6 outings each on them already) or what, but the tire choice turned the driving experience into a clusterf**k.

First, on the 300 mile drive through Washington State it poured rain the whole way from the US border to Portland, so much that we had to slow down to 40MPH at times. It was Easter Sunday so the road (I5) was packed. I was getting major tramlining and wander from the standing water. White knuckles the whole way.

Monday, track day, dawned overcast and cold. The track was damp and on my first outing I had no grip at all. It was embarrassing - I've spend hours on that track and know my way around, but I couldn't keep up even a little bit.

The second run was better and I got a bit of pace back although I couldn't get back to a normal pace. At the end of the lunch break the sky opened up and we had a torrential downpour. I did one more part-session run through the standing water and then gave up and left for home. I just didn't see the point in spending twenty minutes keeping out of other people's way and trying to avoid an accident on tires I didn't trust.

On the drive home, it rained off and on, then we went through the heaviest hailstorm I've ever seen just south of Tacoma. Finally, north of Seattle, the day warmed up a bit and the road was dry. Suddenly I was driving a different car. Stable, solid and tracked like a charm.

It was a long two days of driving in nasty conditions on tires that don't work at all in the cold and wet. They have about 5/32 tread on them, but they just won't stick. Bridgestone ended RE-01R production recently and they're not available any more - I suspect that my experience is not the only case where the compound hardens up below 40 degrees and handling goes away.
Appreciate 0
      04-19-2009, 04:03 PM   #20
sc_tr0jan_m3
Lieutenant Colonel
sc_tr0jan_m3's Avatar
515
Rep
1,729
Posts

Drives: 2018 Grigio Telesto F80 M3 DCT
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Dallas, TX

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAJ View Post
I agree completely with your comment on compounds and rain. I had a relatively unpleasant trip last weekend to Portland International Raceway (Oregon) and what messed it up was a poor choice of tires for the conditions.

I have to drive 300 miles to get there, so tire choices are tricky. My original plan was to take my new Nitto NT-01's (on a set of 4 OEM 18" rears) with me in the back seat and trunk and drive down on a stock set of 19" PS2's that I'd run on if it rained. Well, my wife (for the first time ever) decided to come along, so I decided to leave the Nitto's behind to make room for luggage. Because I didn't want to run on stock PS2's if the day was dry, I compromised and put on my older set of Bridgestone 265/35 RE-01R's on 9.5" rims. BIG mistake.

I don't know whether it was the heat cycling (two full seasons of 6 outings each on them already) or what, but the tire choice turned the driving experience into a clusterf**k.

First, on the 300 mile drive through Washington State it poured rain the whole way from the US border to Portland, so much that we had to slow down to 40MPH at times. It was Easter Sunday so the road (I5) was packed. I was getting major tramlining and wander from the standing water. White knuckles the whole way.

Monday, track day, dawned overcast and cold. The track was damp and on my first outing I had no grip at all. It was embarrassing - I've spend hours on that track and know my way around, but I couldn't keep up even a little bit.

The second run was better and I got a bit of pace back although I couldn't get back to a normal pace. At the end of the lunch break the sky opened up and we had a torrential downpour. I did one more part-session run through the standing water and then gave up and left for home. I just didn't see the point in spending twenty minutes keeping out of other people's way and trying to avoid an accident on tires I didn't trust.

On the drive home, it rained off and on, then we went through the heaviest hailstorm I've ever seen just south of Tacoma. Finally, north of Seattle, the day warmed up a bit and the road was dry. Suddenly I was driving a different car. Stable, solid and tracked like a charm.

It was a long two days of driving in nasty conditions on tires that don't work at all in the cold and wet. They have about 5/32 tread on them, but they just won't stick. Bridgestone ended RE-01R production recently and they're not available any more - I suspect that my experience is not the only case where the compound hardens up below 40 degrees and handling goes away.
re01r's are TERRIBLE in the rain. that's the common feedback that most people give, including myself. a few months ago when norcal was getting hammered by rain non-stop, it was just a mess to drive anywhere. major hydroplaning while on the freeway, especially if you hit standing water.

i love the performance in the dry, but once the roads get slick... it's a whole 'nother story.

i have heard that the new nt05's from nitto offer similar dry performance and better wet performance than the re01r's... i'm looking to try them out as my next set of tires.
__________________


2018 Grigio Telesto F80 M3 DCT | :: Bone Stock ::
2004 Titanium Silver E46 M3 6 Speed | :: Track Car ::
Appreciate 0
      04-19-2009, 05:11 PM   #21
FStop7
I like cars
FStop7's Avatar
Vatican City State
329
Rep
5,052
Posts

Drives: M6
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Newbury Park, CA

iTrader: (3)

I had RE01Rs on my Evo and they were fine in the rain. AWD aside I never felt any hydroplaning whatsoever and I took them through some pretty heavy storms.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      04-19-2009, 05:15 PM   #22
lucid
Major General
lucid's Avatar
United_States
374
Rep
8,033
Posts

Drives: E30 M3; Expedition
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by FStop7 View Post
I had RE01Rs on my Evo and they were fine in the rain. AWD aside I never felt any hydroplaning whatsoever and I took them through some pretty heavy storms.
Track driving or not?
__________________
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:49 AM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST