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09-07-2008, 04:53 PM | #1 |
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Buying Shocks? A must read
"Buying Shocks
Remember this list:
PLEASE READ AND STOP BUYING CRAP ---- http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets6.html |
09-08-2008, 08:37 AM | #2 | |
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09-08-2008, 10:03 AM | #3 | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
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09-08-2008, 10:31 AM | #4 |
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I read that too, that's why I was curious if anybody else had experience with those 2 other shocks. Not that I'd soon get them, they're way too expensive for the occasional amateur track day, but simply out of curiosity...
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09-08-2008, 08:46 PM | #6 |
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KW is not big in the US (yet). So perhaps they have never tested it. KW is very very good so I wouldn't worry. I just installed a set of KW club sports in my 135i.
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09-08-2008, 09:17 PM | #7 |
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KW has been in the US for a while. Ohlin's, AST and Bilsteins are better. I've driven enough cars with each suspension to know.
When I start buying suspension parts for my 135i I'll ONLY buy Ohlin's, AST or Koni. I can't afford the JRZ, Moton stuff yet. |
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09-09-2008, 12:26 AM | #8 |
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Ohlin, Sachs are brilliant stuff. But expensive. Bilstein race stuff might be good, but their consumer range such as PSS9/10 are no match for the equavalent KW. A few of the other brands are US only brands so I can't comment. I used to have PSS9 on my car btw.
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09-09-2008, 02:07 AM | #9 | |
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Bilstein street kits are very good and can be rebuilt at the track. KW is a marketing company selling products to the average guy. They are not in the same ballpark as Koni, Ohlin, Sachs, Bilstein, and Penske. Do not get me wrong KW builds a OK street kit. Just remember one for the top selling points for KW is stainless steal consturction and thats all BS. Sent from an iPhone |
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09-09-2008, 02:50 AM | #10 |
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Charles1, I have years of track experience and have used both KW and Bilstein. Sure I am not a race car driver, but I dare say my ideas are far from random. So what makes you so much better informed than I am? Isn't it weird that a few of the 135i track/race cars built are using KW kits. I guess none of us know what we are doing. You just know so much more than us. Although I am not familiar with your TC Kline DA coilover (but I have read enough to know they are good), I would have no hesitation in putting up my KW Club sports against it.
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09-09-2008, 03:18 AM | #11 |
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charles, please don't take this the wrong way but i have noticed in a previous thread as well, that you are very quick to tell anyone off who does not have or want a tckline suspension, and rather rudely at that.
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09-09-2008, 04:31 PM | #12 | ||
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Guys, I don't mean to be rude nor do I think anyone must run TC Kline suspension. For the money I spent I would rather have an LSD and Koni/Eibach kit. I have never said a bad thing about KW only they are a marketing company. Note most of the racecars on this forum running KW were given to them for free.
My only wish is to stop people from making the same mistakes as me on pervious cars. Don’t just run out and buy a suspension kit that you see all over the magazines or on a few racecars. My recommendations are go out and talk to your local SCCA club races and autox guys and ask them what is working. Most people will never adjust a suspension kit once installed on a car anyway. This makes non-adjustable shock/spring kit a great value. Quote:
Two years ago I would have bet money on brand X suspension (very expensive and had all the forum and mag support) until we switched suspension on one car to a very basic Koni/ground control set recommended by a top car in the class. What happened next changed my view and opened my mind to true race can design (noting is better until you data log it) forever. Are lowest powered car was lapping 2 seconds faster on average across three drivers on a 45 second course. If I did not race and data log my butt dyno would still tell me brand x was much better. Quote:
Send from a mobile device. This was typed on a very small screen and not intended to be rude or disrespectful. |
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09-09-2008, 04:42 PM | #13 |
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I'm a die hard ohlines fan as well. I had the sportline on my suby and they were perfect. I did have 12 kg fr/ 10 kg r swift springs which made em a little more stiff for the street, but on the track, they would corner like no other.
Now i just gotta save up for a set. |
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09-09-2008, 04:45 PM | #14 |
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"Bilstein makes amazing shocks - they are mechanically simple, parts are dirt cheap and readily availible, and the innards of their street shocks and their full-race shocks are identical."
Quote from: http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets6.htm |
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09-09-2008, 05:17 PM | #15 |
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I think that's a dead link, Charles.
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09-09-2008, 05:49 PM | #16 |
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Mikeo - try http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets6.html its slow sometimes.
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09-09-2008, 06:01 PM | #17 |
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Good read, thanks Charles.
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09-09-2008, 06:39 PM | #19 |
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With me coming from the old school DSM (Eclipse/Talon/Laser) world (still got my Eclipse hehe), I am well familiar with DG. He is one of the most successful autox guys, very experienced in suspension tuning and highly knowledgeable.
At the same time, he wrote this a few years ago. I know, as I read it back then when we were still using mass e-mail groups (instead of forums) hehe. Good information but may be out of date. Many companies like KW were not popular in the US yet. If you notice, he didn't put KW on that list of crap brands. I cannot comment on shock dyno plots etc nor do I have any information regarding this, but what I do know is KW is serious about providing suspension that works. KW forked the bill (mighty big bill) and we had 2 days of private testing at Buttonwillow Raceway. We weren't out just testing the Clubsports. We tested every single suspension they had, V1, V2, V3 and then Clubsports. They sent out their engineers to conduct these tests and make changs etc at the track. Real world testing. That's what matters. At the same time, I'm sure a big company like KW has a shock dyno. Hell, their US headquarters is in Sanger, CA. For some that don't know, Sanger is right by Bakersfield (boonies). Why? So they can conduct testing at Buttonwillow as well as Willow Springs. That's commitment. I know I won't live in Sanger just to be by the track. This is why many teams (including us) run KW. They offer great real world tested products and best of all awesome support. |
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09-09-2008, 07:27 PM | #22 |
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Hi Charles, we are all cool. :w00t: I appreciate you sharing the info with us. Have you tried KW products yourself? Maybe that may change your mind! :thumbup:
Fred, KW do indeed have their own shock dyno. Here is a little blurb from their website. It's a serious piece of kit. There is a photo of it on their website too. Nice. Oh and BTW Fred, I have you to thank for my KW Clubsports. Afterall you helped KW develop the product for our cars! :w00t: ------------------------------------------ KW automotive is enabled to offer the opportunity of simulating track conditions in the lab as well as their expertise to interested race teams and industry partners. In 2006 KW automotive established an ultra-modern hydraulic 7-post dyno test facility at the Fichtenberg location which simulates off-track running conditions in the laboratory. Worldwide there are only 15 units of the hydraulic 7-post rig in use, generally used by Formula 1 race teams for research and development purposes. The teams spend considerable time setting up the suspension of their cars for individual circuits, using the 7-post rig. KW automotive is enabled to offer the opportunity of simulating track conditions in the lab as well as their expertise to interested race teams and industry partners. For them this will result in huge savings of time and money, as the need to transport race cars to the test-tracks has been reduced. This 7 Post Rig consists of seven hydraulic actuators with fluid accumulators and a control system sitting on a seismic mass about seven feet below the shop floor. Four posts are used to simulate road dynamics as the vehicle travels over a rough road, by generating forces at the tire contact patches using electro-hydraulic servo-actuators. They are also used to characterize the suspension by exciting the 4-wheel patches with either consistent oscillation tests or collected data. Three other actuators add forces to the car to simulate aerodynamic or weight transfer of the car under braking, acceleration and cornering that would be seen on the car at a track. This 7-Post Rig allows accurate race track replications as well as suspension optimization testing, thus providing KW automotive a technological advantage to assess and set-up new application developments. • For RD in motorsports and automotive industry • Innovative Testing possibilities • Simulation of brake and acceleration processes as well as aerodynmic loads • Provides perfect support for subjective testing |
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