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      05-05-2008, 07:15 PM   #1
Charles1
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TC Kline suspension on Monday...

I am so excited to have my TC Kline suspension installed next week. I will follow up with a review and pictures.
It’s my opinion (tested on real street, autox and club racing cars) no off the shelf coilover can offer the performance or value of TC Kline suspension.
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      05-05-2008, 07:17 PM   #2
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What did you go with? Struts/Springs, or the SA or DA coilover Konis?

I have a set of TC Kline SA coilovers on one of my cars, and love it! Can't wait to see what your impressions are!
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      05-05-2008, 07:29 PM   #3
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TCKR Smart Design D/A Coilover System & Camber kit.

In addition, the car will have a proper alignment and corner balance. IMO this is the part most people forget about when upgrading suspension.

Waiting for a tested sway-bar and LSD.
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      05-05-2008, 08:06 PM   #4
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I assume you're getting the e90 fitment? What # springs? Is this going to be a track or autox car? (sorry for all the questions)
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      05-05-2008, 08:25 PM   #5
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No problem, at least two people care about “real” suspension. TC Kline has a 135i in house and has completed testing.
I am running the same suspension at the test mule. I did not order a part number just called them and they set me up. I will be running 400/400 as a baseline.
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      05-05-2008, 10:47 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles1 View Post
No problem, at least two people care about “real” suspension. TC Kline has a 135i in house and has completed testing.
I am running the same suspension at the test mule. I did not order a part number just called them and they set me up. I will be running 400/400 as a baseline.

I will be going with a TC Kline set up also. Spoke with Mark at TC Kline via email awhile back and they were testing what it sounds like is going on your car!

Please keep us apprised of how the set up works.

I think the 135i will be a monster if it is properly setup. I will probably lean toward even higher spring rates but we will have to see.

Larry,
What I would like to hear more about also are those darn 17x9 LTW5's!!:wink: If they work when pushed hard and I mean track/autocross...(none of this ninny street stuff) that's what I plan on combining with the TC Kline DA set up/camber plates.

It is great to see some progression in the wheel/tire/suspension area, very excited! Thanks guys for the input and blazing the trail.:smile:
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      05-06-2008, 12:25 AM   #7
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I look forward to conversing with performance minds on the forum. I am notorious for taking streets cars one-step to far. I hope to find a nice balance with the 135i

TC Kline is very keen on the 400/400 configurations. I will most likely purchase a set of 450 and 500 springs for testing.

Larry – I love the wheels; planning on running the same for an autox setup with Hoosier A6 rubber. Not sure what I am going to run on the street maybe Team Dynamics or OZ.

If you hear of a proven LSD or adjustable front sway bar please let me know.
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      05-06-2008, 10:59 AM   #8
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I'm looking at either these...or the AST setup.... AST winning at the moment due to them being super close to me
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      05-06-2008, 11:22 AM   #9
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Local support is great.

After my brother and I bought coilover after coilover for are H2 cars. I am stuck on Koni.

Let us know what setup you choose. Do you autox ? I am looking forward to reviews on other spring rates and alignment settings.
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      05-06-2008, 05:43 PM   #10
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My negative against Koni is they don't tend to last that long before needing a rebuild. Monotubes (AST + others) are more durable. I speak as somebody that needs to rebuild his Konis (from TC Kline no less) and wishes he had bought some nice monotubes in the first place.
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      05-06-2008, 05:47 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles1 View Post
No problem, at least two people care about “real” suspension. TC Kline has a 135i in house and has completed testing.
Wow...only 3 months after KW completed there specific testing with the E82! KW will even make valving changes to order per you individual need. They can do anything and have the racing pedigree to back it up (and not historic pedigree like Koni). They are the choice late model roadracing suspension company for good reason. I'll trust their engineers over all else every time. Don't be a rebel, KW is the better product by a longshot.
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      05-06-2008, 07:38 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Balls View Post
Wow...only 3 months after KW completed there specific testing with the E82! KW will even make valving changes to order per you individual need. They can do anything and have the racing pedigree to back it up (and not historic pedigree like Koni). They are the choice late model roadracing suspension company for good reason. I'll trust their engineers over all else every time. Don't be a rebel, KW is the better product by a longshot.
while KWs are nice, comments like "They are the choice late model roadracing suspension company for good reason" and "KW is the better product by a longshot" are a little over the top. for BMWs TC is a premier suspension tuner. and check out places such as bimmer world and turner motorsports. three of the more renowned BMW race car builders. KWs best selling point is the stainless construction and almost all high end shock manufacturers will do custom valving. I'm not trying to knock down KW they have a great product. but others are right there and when it comes to geometry and engineering there are better.
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      05-07-2008, 01:16 AM   #13
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congrats on the new suspension set up!

please let us know how they are... where do you plan on going to get your car corner balanced?
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      05-07-2008, 01:54 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redwood View Post
My negative against Koni is they don't tend to last that long before needing a rebuild. Monotubes (AST + others) are more durable. I speak as somebody that needs to rebuild his Konis (from TC Kline no less) and wishes he had bought some nice monotubes in the first place.
Redwood: Point well taken, thanks for the advice. I understand Koni builds shocks for all street & racing needs including some very high-end bits. I think ppl forget about their complete lineup focusing only on yellows.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Balls View Post
Wow...only 3 months after KW completed there specific testing with the E82! KW will even make valving changes to order per you individual need. They can do anything and have the racing pedigree to back it up (and not historic pedigree like Koni). They are the choice late model roadracing suspension company for good reason. I'll trust their engineers over all else every time. Don't be a rebel, KW is the better product by a longshot.
First off I never said a bad word about KW. My comment was made in regards to the members wanting a tuned complete suspension package vs. a simple “sport” spring and an off the shelf shock. Additionally suspension that handles well vs. low and stiff.

Having tried some other coilovers I will stick with Koni. I don’t see this as the rebel move. Koni & eibach’s kits are currently running in various racing classes and OEM set-ups of their so-called competitors.

In the end a proper shocks and springs are only a small part of the overall handling of a car. Proper tires, wheels, alignment, and driving style all come in to play.

I will be at the Autox SCCA nationals if you want to test your set up verses mine. Until then lets all get along.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWeber View Post
while KWs are nice, comments like "They are the choice late model roadracing suspension company for good reason" and "KW is the better product by a longshot" are a little over the top. for BMWs TC is a premier suspension tuner. and check out places such as bimmer world and turner motorsports. three of the more renowned BMW race car builders. KWs best selling point is the stainless construction and almost all high end shock manufacturers will do custom valving. I'm not trying to knock down KW they have a great product. but others are right there and when it comes to geometry and engineering there are better.
Well said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by and1 View Post
congrats on the new suspension set up!

please let us know how they are... where do you plan on going to get your car corner balanced?
TC Kline will align and corner balance the car.
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      05-07-2008, 02:11 AM   #15
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excellent!

congrats on the new setup again... enjoy it in good health!
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      05-07-2008, 07:47 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWeber View Post
while KWs are nice, comments like "They are the choice late model roadracing suspension company for good reason" and "KW is the better product by a longshot" are a little over the top. for BMWs TC is a premier suspension tuner. and check out places such as bimmer world and turner motorsports. three of the more renowned BMW race car builders. KWs best selling point is the stainless construction and almost all high end shock manufacturers will do custom valving. I'm not trying to knock down KW they have a great product. but others are right there and when it comes to geometry and engineering there are better.
Comments like "KWs best selling point is the stainless steel construction" shows you are arguing just for the sake of arguing so thanks for that (not really). Anyway, sure it's very high quality but the high and low frequency valving is why they're so good, especially for the street. As for racing, you'll find their suspensions on the best FIA GT cars on the grid, and WTC, and Le Mans, and on and on... SCCA...what's that??? Seriously, KW is as high end as it gets when it comes to sports car racing suspensions, and their street stuff is as good as anyone needs. Their engineers know what they're doing and they know how hard cars are pushed over here so you can be sure it's a safe product and extremely well made. For sure buy what you want. I just didn't like the arrogance of the original post. I've had Koni, GAB, KYB, Tokico, and many others and all were crap compared to my KWs. Good enough for me...

BTW, wish I had a dollar for every KW equipped car lapping the Nurburgring! Perhaps living in Germany has me a bit biased, but America isn't well known for quality products in this industry (comparatively). I'll take German engineered thank you very much.

Personally I want KW coilovers [for the handling] but I'm not sure I can live with the lowering. I'll have to do some eyeball curb measurements to see if the 135's front end is in danger of getting crunched if lowered. KWs minimum is 30mm, and that's quite a bit.

Cheers!
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      05-07-2008, 10:09 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Balls View Post
Comments like "KWs best selling point is the stainless steel construction" shows you are arguing just for the sake of arguing so thanks for that (not really). Anyway, sure it's very high quality but the high and low frequency valving is why they're so good, especially for the street. As for racing, you'll find their suspensions on the best FIA GT cars on the grid, and WTC, and Le Mans, and on and on... SCCA...what's that??? Seriously, KW is as high end as it gets when it comes to sports car racing suspensions, and their street stuff is as good as anyone needs. Their engineers know what they're doing and they know how hard cars are pushed over here so you can be sure it's a safe product and extremely well made. For sure buy what you want. I just didn't like the arrogance of the original post. I've had Koni, GAB, KYB, Tokico, and many others and all were crap compared to my KWs. Good enough for me...

BTW, wish I had a dollar for every KW equipped car lapping the Nurburgring! Perhaps living in Germany has me a bit biased, but America isn't well known for quality products in this industry (comparatively). I'll take German engineered thank you very much.

Personally I want KW coilovers [for the handling] but I'm not sure I can live with the lowering. I'll have to do some eyeball curb measurements to see if the 135's front end is in danger of getting crunched if lowered. KWs minimum is 30mm, and that's quite a bit.

Cheers!
Not arguing just to argue but you seem to be pushing that envelope. I was thinking on the line of MOTON and JRZ those are the shock companies I'd put on a pedestal. but to each their own and on SCCA whats that??? don't be an ASS.
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      05-07-2008, 10:29 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Balls View Post
Comments like "KWs best selling point is the stainless steel construction" shows you are arguing just for the sake of arguing so thanks for that (not really).
Well, he had a point. Most companies don't use stainless steel for strut bodies (or other suspension members) because stainless alloys are softer and weaker than most other alloys of steel. Making struts out of stainless is a "bling thing" and something you won't ever find on high end racing shocks.

Go look up some materials characteristics of 304, 316 or the 400 series stainless alloys. These alloys are considerably softer and weaker than 4000-5000 series alloy steels, so they have to make their strut bodies and flanges thicker to meet the same test and durability standards. Meaning: heavier. I can show you scale weights of a KW vs. another company's identical strut body that's significantly lighter, if you like... and I can show you examples of bent stainless steel strut bodies and mounting flanges, too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Balls View Post
Anyway, sure it's very high quality but the high and low frequency valving is why they're so good, especially for the street. As for racing, you'll find their suspensions on the best FIA GT cars on the grid, and WTC, and Le Mans, and on and on... SCCA...what's that???
But do the suspensions on the Le Mans cars have much in common with yours? Not really, no. SCCA is the biggest motorsports racing organization in North America, with Pro and Club level road racing as well as Solo autocross competition - the highest participated competition motorsports event in North America. Many of the racing classes in those events use cars that are much closer to a factory built car. Again, we crazy Americans like to race a lot, and we have a lot of folks doing it in a lot of different organizations and tracks - more than in Germany, by a whole lot. There are 3 road racing circuits in the city I live in. How about yours?

FIA GT and WTC are as far removed from your street car as an F1 car. SCCA (and NASA and BMWCCA) road racing is much closer to what most people here have - a track, dual purpose, or street driven BMW. Don't scoff at something you don't know much about or have never done just because you live in Germany and have the Nurburgring to brag about (have you even driven on the NR? raced there in competition?).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Balls View Post
Seriously, KW is as high end as it gets when it comes to sports car racing suspensions, and their street stuff is as good as anyone needs. Their engineers know what they're doing and they know how hard cars are pushed over here so you can be sure it's a safe product and extremely well made. For sure buy what you want. I just didn't like the arrogance of the original post.
Arrogance? Wow, - pot, meet kettle. He was just excited about having a new suspension on his 1 series, which is brand new in North America - I didn't see arrogance. I don't care for the lack of knowledge in your posts. Even Koni makes monotubes, if you can stomach their prices (28 series). As do Moton, Ohlins, Penske, JRZ, AST and others - all of which you will find on a race car before you will find twin tubes, if the racing class allows them.

Go learn more about shock technology before you come here blasting some company's marketing drivel as gospel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Balls View Post
I've had Koni, GAB, KYB, Tokico, and many others and all were crap compared to my KWs. Good enough for me...
Well sure, compared to some on that list of shocks they do fare pretty well. You left out Tein! :biggrin:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Balls View Post
BTW, wish I had a dollar for every KW equipped car lapping the Nurburgring! Perhaps living in Germany has me a bit biased, but America isn't well known for quality products in this industry (comparatively). I'll take German engineered thank you very much.
Nurburgring is a legendary track, no doubt about it, and I've run there myself - its awesome, and extremely challenging to drive. Can't argue that. But being such a massively long track that is often under water, is very hard to drive consistently lap after lap. With those big variables I wouldn't say its the end-all-be-all test track in the world, but it does seem to currently hold that spot in a lot of people's hearts. Most of that is good marketing.

And the TCK shocks the OP has now are built for TCK by Koni. No one here is questioning the quality of shocks built in the Netherlands or Germany. I'll be the first one to agree with you that shock technology is headquartered over there. The US-specific shock needs DO differ from German needs, however, due to our much higher participation levels of competition racing, differing roads, and especially our differing road laws (DOT vs TUV). The US market is just in the last month getting our first 1 series models to test with. Sure, German and Dutch shock makers have had a leg up with these car models, since they've had these 1 series cars released there for quite a bit longer. So what? The 3 month head start you brag about doesn't matter for very long.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Balls View Post
Personally I want KW coilovers [for the handling] but I'm not sure I can live with the lowering. I'll have to do some eyeball curb measurements to see if the 135's front end is in danger of getting crunched if lowered. KWs minimum is 30mm, and that's quite a bit.
What do you do with your car, Mr. Balls? Track events? Autocross? Hard Park? Germany doesn't have grassroots competition events like autocrossing or even Club Level road racing, that North America has in such abundance. There's just a lot fewer competition events held there than here. Just curious what you do with your KW suspension.
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      05-07-2008, 10:42 AM   #19
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Not arguing just to argue but you seem to be pushing that envelope. I was thinking on the line of MOTON and JRZ those are the shock companies I'd put on a pedestal. but to each their own and on SCCA whats that??? don't be an ASS.
I don't use words like ASS on forums...below my standards (not picking a fight, just a personal truism).

Back on topic...

But ultimately I've never found a aftermarket suspension [for road use, not race] that's so amazingly supple over typical roads and yet so confidence inspiring in the twisties. Plus as you pointed out they shock bodies never corrode, with the benefit being that you can height adjust 'til the cows come marching home. It's the best of all worlds...truly. So why look elsewhere for a street set up?

I would venture to say most are put off by the price though, and may look elsewhere to save $$$. I used to compromise too...
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      05-07-2008, 10:50 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fair View Post
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Well, he had a point. Most companies don't use stainless steel for strut bodies (or other suspension members) because stainless alloys are softer and weaker than most other alloys of steel. Making struts out of stainless is a "bling thing" and something you won't ever find on high end racing shocks.

Go look up some materials characteristics of 304, 316 or the 400 series stainless alloys. These alloys are considerably softer and weaker than 4000-5000 series alloy steels, so they have to make their strut bodies and flanges thicker to meet the same test and durability standards. Meaning: heavier. I can show you scale weights of a KW vs. another company's identical strut body that's significantly lighter, if you like... and I can show you examples of bent stainless steel strut bodies and mounting flanges, too.


But do the suspensions on the Le Mans cars have much in common with yours? Not really, no. SCCA is the biggest motorsports racing organization in North America, with Pro and Club level road racing as well as Solo autocross competition - the highest participated competition motorsports event in North America. Many of the racing classes in those events use cars that are much closer to a factory built car. Again, we crazy Americans like to race a lot, and we have a lot of folks doing it in a lot of different organizations and tracks - more than in Germany, by a whole lot. There are 3 road racing circuits in the city I live in. How about yours?

FIA GT and WTC are as far removed from your street car as an F1 car. SCCA (and NASA and BMWCCA) road racing is much closer to what most people here have - a track, dual purpose, or street driven BMW. Don't scoff at something you don't know much about or have never done just because you live in Germany and have the Nurburgring to brag about (have you even driven on the NR? raced there in competition?).


Arrogance? Wow, - pot, meet kettle. He was just excited about having a new suspension on his 1 series, which is brand new in North America - I didn't see arrogance. Idon't like the lack of knowledge in your posts. KW sells twin tube shocks, so try not to brag too hard. Even Koni makes monotubes, if you can stomach their prices (28 series). As do Moton, Ohlins, Penske, JRZ, AST and others - all of which you will find on a race car before you will find twin tubes, if the racing class allows them.

Go learn more about shock technology before you come here blasting some company's marketing drivel as gospel.


Well sure, compared to some on that list of shocks they do fare pretty well. You left out Tein! :biggrin:


Nurburgring is a legendary track, no doubt about it, and I've run there myself - its awesome, and extremely challenging to drive. Can't argue that. But being such a massively long track that is often under water, is very hard to drive consistently lap after lap. With those big variables I wouldn't say its the end-all-be-all test track in the world, but it does seem to currently hold that spot in a lot of people's hearts. Most of that is good marketing.

And the TCK shocks the OP has now are built for TCK by Koni. No one here is questioning the quality of shocks built in the Netherlands or Germany. I'll be the first one to agree with you that shock technology is headquartered over there. The US-specific shock needs DO differ from German needs, however, due to our much higher participation levels of competition racing, differing roads, and especially our differing road laws (DOT vs TUV). The US market is just in the last month getting our first 1 series models to test with. Sure, German and Dutch shock makers have had a leg up with these car models, since they've had these 1 series cars released there for quite a bit longer. So what? The 3 month head start you brag about doesn't matter for very long.


What do you do with your car, Mr. Balls? Track events? Autocross? Hard Park? Germany doesn't have grassroots competition events like autocrossing or even Club Level road racing, that North America has in such abundance. There's just a lot fewer competition events held there than here. Just curious what you do with your KW suspension that you are so in love with. :biggrin:
To each there own. You and this aren't worth the key strokes. We could go round and round all day. Ultimately, it's a free world (what I do for a living ensures it). I'll like/buy what I want and you're free to do the same.

FWIW, Germany has what I like, and that's hardcore motorcycling. Cars suck.

Cheers!
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      05-07-2008, 11:17 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redwood View Post
My negative against Koni is they don't tend to last that long before needing a rebuild. Monotubes (AST + others) are more durable. I speak as somebody that needs to rebuild his Konis (from TC Kline no less) and wishes he had bought some nice monotubes in the first place.
What makes you think they need to be rebuilt? Do you have Data to back up the monotubes are more durable than Twin tubes comment. I find that odd since Koni offers a lifetime warranty on it's twin tube dampners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Balls View Post
Wow...only 3 months after KW completed there specific testing with the E82! KW will even make valving changes to order per you individual need. They can do anything and have the racing pedigree to back it up (and not historic pedigree like Koni). They are the choice late model roadracing suspension company for good reason. I'll trust their engineers over all else every time. Don't be a rebel, KW is the better product by a longshot.
Historic? Interesting because I see Koni's more than any other shock at every race weekend I go to.

Oh yeah and then there's http://www.konichallenge.com/

"By a longshot" that is a BIG statement have you done back to back testing against the KW's? Can I see the data you have to back this up?
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      05-07-2008, 11:23 AM   #22
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Oh yeah and since FIA GT racing is so important to you maybe you didn't notice that the Koni equipped Aston Martin won the first FIA GT race of the year. Or is that to historic for you?

http://www.koni.com/20.html
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