BMW 1 Series Coupe Forum / 1 Series Convertible Forum (1M / tii / 135i / 128i / Coupe / Cabrio / Hatchback) (BMW E82 E88 128i 130i 135i)
 





 

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      10-12-2007, 11:02 AM   #1
SmoothStyle1
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Faulty Logic Regarding 135i Pricing

I’ve read many threads on here in which forum members seem to be uneasy with the price tag of the 135i coupe, especially as it appears to be creeping close to the cost of the 335i coupe (within 3K). I feel like people are looking at the pricing for the 1-series in completely the wrong way.

The 135i will have the same engine as the 335i; only the 135i will be 200 pounds lighter, meaning better handling, faster 0-60 times and better gas mileage. Considering this, it wouldn’t be beyond the realm of comprehension for this car to cost more than the 335i. Think about it: same engine, comparable interior space, better handling, faster 0-60 times and better gas mileage. We should all be happy and excited that this car isn’t more expensive than the 335i!

I think that some people have the mindset that because it is a “1-Series” and 1 is less than 3, it should automatically cost less than a “3-Series.” In my book, this is faulty logic.

I personally am thrilled that the 135i will be offered for less than $40,000 and I challenge anyone to name another car with a 300HP/300 lb-ft, twin turbo, I6 engine and the standard luxury features of the 135i along with a maintenance plan as comprehensive as BMW’s - for less than $40,000.
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      10-12-2007, 11:07 AM   #2
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Damn, when I mentioned someone claiming that the 135i should cost more than the 335i, I was seriously kidding.

Take away value from the 135i and the car has no purpose. I have said this a thousand times and it still applies.
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      10-12-2007, 11:13 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by MPower View Post
Damn, when I mentioned someone claiming that the 135i should cost more than the 335i, I was seriously kidding.

Take away value from the 135i and the car has no purpose. I have said this a thousand times and it still applies.
In concept, why shouldn't it cost more? As I mentioned above, same engine, comparable interior space, better handling, faster 0-60 times and better gas mileage.
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      10-12-2007, 11:15 AM   #4
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I agree that people on this board are way under pricing the 135i in terms of value. The 335 starts at over 40k and is about 50k nicely equipped. If I can get a 135i nicely equipped for 40k, I will be happy.
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      10-12-2007, 11:27 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by SmoothStyle1 View Post
In concept, why shouldn't it cost more? As I mentioned above, same engine, comparable interior space, better handling, faster 0-60 times and better gas mileage.
The 1 Series is an entry level model. It's purpose is for value. The virtues you mention apply nothing to the cost of the vehicle.

Keep in mind that the 135i is around 9 shorter than the 335i. That is a big difference. It makes it, to my knowledge, the shortest rear-wheel drive four-seat coupe on sale. It is not going to be "comparable" in interior space with the E92, just isnt. It also wont have the luxury of the 335i (which is more than just what the options list includes).

The 1 Series is an entry level model. Without value, everyone here would have already bought a 335i instead of waiting months for a 135i. The performance advantages are nice, though very minor, but performance does not define the price of a vehicle.
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      10-12-2007, 11:43 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MPower View Post
The 1 Series is an entry level model. It's purpose is for value. The virtues you mention apply nothing to the cost of the vehicle.

Keep in mind that the 135i is around 9 shorter than the 335i. That is a big difference. It makes it, to my knowledge, the shortest rear-wheel drive four-seat coupe on sale. It is not going to be "comparable" in interior space with the E92, just isnt. It also wont have the luxury of the 335i (which is more than just what the options list includes).

The 1 Series is an entry level model. Without value, everyone here would have already bought a 335i instead of waiting months for a 135i. The performance advantages are nice, though very minor, but performance does not define the price of a vehicle.
See that’s where I think you are wrong. I don’t see the 135i as an entry level car. It is a performance car… period. The old 318i was an entry level BMW and everything about it was entry level. The 135i is no 318.

Also, I don’t understand why the size of the 135i gets entered into the equation so often? I don’t hear people complaining about the size of a Lotus, or an SLK, or Porsche Cayman. The shorter vehicle length of the 135i is an asset because I think everyone is in agreement that the 3-Series has become too big and bulky!

The 135i is a performance car that gets back to the essence of what a BMW is all about. It is a throwback car, and once again, nothing about it is entry level.
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      10-12-2007, 11:47 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmoothStyle1 View Post
See that’s where I think you are wrong. I don’t see the 135i as an entry level car. It is a performance car… period. The old 318i was an entry level BMW and everything about it was entry level. The 135i is no 318.

Also, I don’t understand why the size of teh 135i gets entered into the equation so often? I don’t hear people complaining about the size of a Lotus, or an SLK, or Porsche Cayman. The shorter vehicle length of the 135i is an asset because I think everyone is in agreement that the 3-Series has become too big and bulky!

The 135i is a performance car that gets back to the essence of what a BMW is all about. It is a throwback car, and once again, nothing about it is entry level.
Your whole argument makes the assumption that performance defines the price of a car which is completely ridiculous. Take the 335i vs. 535i. Applying your "logic", why on earth doesnt the 335i cost more than the 535i? You get luxury, quicker 0-60 times, better handling, less space, etc.
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      10-12-2007, 12:05 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MPower View Post
Your whole argument makes the assumption that performance defines the price of a car which is completely ridiculous. Take the 335i vs. 535i. Applying your "logic", why on earth doesnt the 335i cost more than the 535i? You get luxury, quicker 0-60 times, better handling, less space, etc.
Apples to oranges comparison. BMW markets the 5-Series as a clear "step up" from the 3-Series and the price is reflective of that status difference. BMW is not marketing the 1-Series as a "step down" from the 3-Series, but rather an alternative to the 3-Series, designed and marketed to the driving enthusiasts among us.
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      10-12-2007, 12:13 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmoothStyle1 View Post
Apples to oranges comparison. BMW markets the 5-Series as a clear "step up" from the 3-Series and the price is reflective of that status difference. BMW is not marketing the 1-Series as a "step down" from the 3-Series, but rather an alternative to the 3-Series, designed and marketed to the driving enthusiasts among us.


I guess we can just invent the opinion of the BMW market team...

I dont know where you think BMW says that the 1 Series isnt a "step down" but the fact that they are putting a "1" badge on the thing is pretty clear. I find it funny that apparently, according to you, we can justify the price of a car by how BMW markets a car. You are still using performance as the determining factor of price. In every other factor the 1 Series offers considerably less than the E92. You can not deny that.

Like I have said dozens of times before, if value was not a critical aspect to the appeal of the 1 Series, we all would have bought E90s or E92s by now. Without value, the 1 Series has no purpose.
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      10-12-2007, 12:24 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MPower View Post


I guess we can just invent the opinion of the BMW market team...

I dont know where you think BMW says that the 1 Series isnt a "step down" but the fact that they are putting a "1" badge on the thing is pretty clear. I find it funny that apparently, according to you, we can justify the price of a car by how BMW markets a car. You are still using performance as the determining factor of price. In every other factor the 1 Series offers considerably less than the E92. You can not deny that.

Like I have said dozens of times before, if value was not a critical aspect to the appeal of the 1 Series, we all would have bought E90s or E92s by now. Without value, the 1 Series has no purpose.
We will have to agree to disagree on this issue. As I said before, BMW is marketing the 1-Series to the driving enthusiasts among us and not as a step down from the 3-Series. Thats just how I see it.

If it were all about badges and labels, how does the S4 cost more than the A6? Or how could the C55 cost more than the E350? The answer is because Audi markets the "S" series as its performance badge and MB markets its AMG line similarly. I see the "1-Series" being marketed by BMW as the performance line of BMW, for those of us that can’t afford an M3, M5 or M6.
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      10-12-2007, 12:28 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MPower View Post
Your whole argument makes the assumption that performance defines the price of a car which is completely ridiculous. Take the 335i vs. 535i. Applying your "logic", why on earth doesnt the 335i cost more than the 535i? You get luxury, quicker 0-60 times, better handling, less space, etc.
I don't agree that the 135i is an entry level car. That's more the role of the 128i, although it's still hardly what I would call entry level. Unfortunately the roundel doesn't come cheap.

And obviously performance is part of the equation and does factor into pricing even it's not the sole factor. I'm sure that everyone would prefer a price in the low $30s for a 135i, but IMHO that's wishful thinking.

A V6 Altima coupe is in the low $30s, so why is it surprising that people think that a 135i will cost more? :iono:

Frankly at this point this is all mere speculation and I'm not sure why it's become a crusade for some. Hey is there a prize or something for guessing right? A free 135i for the person that gets it right. That would be nice. Anyway, at the end of the day either you will pay the price or you won't. It's that simple. There's no need to have an aneurism over it. :wink:
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      10-12-2007, 12:35 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MPower View Post
The 1 Series is an entry level model. It's purpose is for value. The virtues you mention apply nothing to the cost of the vehicle.

Keep in mind that the 135i is around 9 shorter than the 335i. That is a big difference. It makes it, to my knowledge, the shortest rear-wheel drive four-seat coupe on sale. It is not going to be "comparable" in interior space with the E92, just isnt. It also wont have the luxury of the 335i (which is more than just what the options list includes).

The 1 Series is an entry level model. Without value, everyone here would have already bought a 335i instead of waiting months for a 135i. The performance advantages are nice, though very minor, but performance does not define the price of a vehicle.
[paranoia]M, I'm not usually the paranoid type but the frequency of members coming in with these oddball price justifications is screaming "plant" to me. We even have a thread attempting to justify a high MSRP by listing 135i "upgrades" a la carte as if you were paying to install them yourself. Of course it could just be widespread ignorance but it certainly seems to be a concerted effort. Maybe it's BMWNA or maybe individual dealerships trying to set buyers up for ADM's but something definitely smells fishy here...

The irrefutable fundamental points...which you've made over and over and over again...are that the 135i is part of an entry level model line, and it's not an ///M car. Anyone who simply glosses over those has a congenital misunderstanding of this car's place in the market. And if indeed some of the price posters are plants then they can't be reasoned with anyway...they're simply going to try to soften up resistance by hammering the same points repeatedly.[/paranoia]
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      10-12-2007, 12:37 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MPower View Post
Like I have said dozens of times before, if value was not a critical aspect to the appeal of the 1 Series, we all would have bought E90s or E92s by now. Without value, the 1 Series has no purpose.
Sorry to nitpick, but isn't every purchase a value proposition? And since "Value" can means different things to different people it sounds like you are really on a slippery slope. I would also say that the 1 Series has purposes beside "Value". It's very dangerous to speak in absolutes. :wink:
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      10-12-2007, 12:45 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by ibeam81 View Post
Sorry to nitpick, but isn't every purchase a value proposition? And since "Value" can means different things to different people it sounds like you are really on a slippery slope. I would also say that the 1 Series has purposes beside "Value". It's very dangerous to speak in absolutes. :wink:
Exactly.
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      10-12-2007, 12:48 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by ibeam81 View Post
Sorry to nitpick, but isn't every purchase a value proposition? And since "Value" can means different things to different people it sounds like you are really on a slippery slope. I would also say that the 1 Series has purposes beside "Value". It's very dangerous to speak in absolutes. :wink:
I was expecting someone to mention this. I should clarify that the 1 Series must represent a reasonable dollar value to the consumer in comparison the the value that the E92 represents. What I mean by that is that the 1 Series has to bring traditional BMW driving values but a lower bottom line than that of the E90/E92. Clearly, any BMW represents some sort of value as value is a comparative and subjective term. However, this 'value' term is more integral to the success of the 1er than any other model in the BMW lineup. If bang-for-your-buck is not a part of the 135i's appeal, the WRX STi and EVO will continue to be the default, budget performance machines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by theslik1
[paranoia]M, I'm not usually the paranoid type but the frequency of members coming in with these oddball price justifications is screaming "plant" to me. We even have a thread attempting to justify a high MSRP by listing 135i "upgrades" a la carte as if you were paying to install them yourself. Of course it could just be widespread ignorance but it certainly seems to be a concerted effort. Maybe it's BMWNA or maybe individual dealerships trying to set buyers up for ADM's but something definitely smells fishy here...

The irrefutable fundamental points...which you've made over and over and over again...are that the 135i is part of an entry level model line, and it's not an ///M car. Anyone who simply glosses over those has a congenital misunderstanding of this car's place in the market. And if indeed some of the price posters are plants then they can't be reasoned with anyway...they're simply going to try to soften up resistance by hammering the same points repeatedly.[/paranoia]
It certainly makes you wonder who Zweier was/is... A BMW plant, I presume...
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      10-12-2007, 12:48 PM   #16
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If the 1 and 3 are the same price (IF) not a single person would opt for the 1 over the 3. No one. the 3 is worth more than the 1, end of story. Go back to under your bridge troll.

People are excited about the 1 because its CHEAPER (more value) than the 3 without giving up much. If the 1 costs same or more (LOL?) ... then... i dont know, up is down or something?
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      10-12-2007, 01:07 PM   #17
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Bottomline:
This car is a great value and will get lots of attention from that $35k and up segment.
Good for BMW.
I love(d) the 2002 and I think it is about time they brought back a compact car that looks nice, goes fast and comes with some up-market appeal.
Entry level or not this car is going to turn a lot of heads.
Granted most of those heads will be the guys in the 3 series as the 1 blows past(lol).
This car is going to be huge in the tuner scene.
Cant wait to see some numbers on this thing with the aftermarket.

Widebody anyone???
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      10-12-2007, 01:14 PM   #18
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I'm amazed that this is being called a "entry-level" car - before the 1 came along, did you call the 3er an entry level car?

Take a look at the lineup - the 5 is the size the 7 was a few years back, the 3 is the new 5.. they needed a smaller car to replace the 3 - all the 1er really is to BMW - the new 3er.

Would I like to see the 128 start at 27k - hell ya - but BMW-NA does not belive in BMW's for under 30k..
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      10-12-2007, 01:20 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MPower View Post
I was expecting someone to mention this. I should clarify that the 1 Series must represent a reasonable dollar value to the consumer in comparison the the value that the E92 represents. What I mean by that is that the 1 Series has to bring traditional BMW driving values but a lower bottom line than that of the E90/E92. Clearly, any BMW represents some sort of value as value is a comparative and subjective term. However, this 'value' term is more integral to the success of the 1er than any other model in the BMW lineup. If bang-for-your-buck is not a part of the 135i's appeal, the WRX STi and EVO will continue to be the default, budget performance machines.
I agree that BMW is pushing the bang-for-the-buck element with the 1er. But that said, they will still want to maximize their profit. The question is whether they will aim for greater volumes or a higher price point per unit. It's a balancing act and unfortunately we are not privy to a lot of the variables. I guess price speculation is one way to pass the time while waiting for the official word, but it can be a PITA. :iono:

Quote:
It certainly makes you wonder who Zweier was/is... A BMW plant, I presume...
A good guess, although he might just be very biased in favor of BMWs (or own a lot of stock in the company). :biggrin:
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      10-12-2007, 01:23 PM   #20
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Would I like to see the 128 start at 27k - hell ya - but BMW-NA does not belive in BMW's for under 30k..
BMW has mentioned a target price of under 30k for the 128i, but who knows what that means. It could be $29,999 not including delivery.
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      10-12-2007, 01:41 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 9600baud View Post
People are excited about the 1 because its CHEAPER (more value) than the 3 without giving up much. If the 1 costs same or more (LOL?) ... then... i dont know, up is down or something?
I think that there is more to it than that. Although I expect the 135i to be generally cheaper than a 335i coupe, I do see some advantages over the 3er. It's smaller and hopefully more tossable, it's lighter and therefore possibly faster with better economy, it has better brakes and probably better suspension, and for some it looks better.

Does this mean that it will cost more than a 335i? Although I can see a decently equipped 135i costing more than a stripper 335i sedan, it obviously won't cost more than a decently equipped 335i coupe unless you live in Bizarro World. :iono:

So far I prefer a 135i M Sport to a 335i coupe, but if they were the same price I would probably just choose none of the above. YMMV.
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      10-12-2007, 01:47 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmoothStyle1 View Post
I’ve read many threads on here in which forum members seem to be uneasy with the price tag of the 135i coupe, especially as it appears to be creeping close to the cost of the 335i coupe (within 3K). I feel like people are looking at the pricing for the 1-series in completely the wrong way.

The 135i will have the same engine as the 335i; only the 135i will be 200 pounds lighter, meaning better handling, faster 0-60 times and better gas mileage. Considering this, it wouldn’t be beyond the realm of comprehension for this car to cost more than the 335i. Think about it: same engine, comparable interior space, better handling, faster 0-60 times and better gas mileage. We should all be happy and excited that this car isn’t more expensive than the 335i!

I think that some people have the mindset that because it is a “1-Series” and 1 is less than 3, it should automatically cost less than a “3-Series.” In my book, this is faulty logic.

I personally am thrilled that the 135i will be offered for less than $40,000 and I challenge anyone to name another car with a 300HP/300 lb-ft, twin turbo, I6 engine and the standard luxury features of the 135i along with a maintenance plan as comprehensive as BMW’s - for less than $40,000.
How much is BMW paying you? :biggrin:
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