BMW 1 Series Coupe Forum / 1 Series Convertible Forum (1M / tii / 135i / 128i / Coupe / Cabrio / Hatchback) (BMW E82 E88 128i 130i 135i)
 





 

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      08-23-2007, 12:47 PM   #1
gotgemini2000
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If BMW doesnt put LSD (limit slip diff) in 135i, would aftermarket LSD void warranty?

It sounds like BMW is not planning on putting a LSD in the 135i. Given this, would an after market LSD void the warranty? I will feel really stupid if I buy a brand new 135i and install a LSD only to void the warranty immediately.
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      08-23-2007, 01:01 PM   #2
kurichan
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As unjust as this may sound, you should probably assume that it voids the warranty.

If something goes wrong, it would be a debate as to whether the LSD caused it.

Depending on your state, the burden of proof could be yours or theirs.

It could be a tough row to hoe for you.

Worst case (granted, a stretch), they say an installation of an incompatable LSD, or a faulty installation caused xyz damage to the drivetrain/engine and you're out $10K...

If something happens and you prevail, count yourself fortunate, but assume you won't.
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      08-23-2007, 01:02 PM   #3
gotgemini2000
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I'm sure you're right, looks like I'm just going to have to deal with one wheel spinning all the time because as far as I'm concerned the electronic "fake" LSD is just bogus.
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      08-23-2007, 01:09 PM   #4
larryn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gotgemini2000 View Post
I'm sure you're right, looks like I'm just going to have to deal with one wheel spinning all the time because as far as I'm concerned the electronic "fake" LSD is just bogus.
The fake LSD prevents any wheels from spinning. IT becomes active when you disable the ASC/Traction Control. All it does is that instead of retarding the throttle when wheel slip is encountered (like traction control does), it applies braking to the spinning wheel, and keeps the throttle applied to the wheel with grip. The brakes would be applied to the spinning wheel, until that wheel regains grip.

I assume that since this will be using the ASB sensors, it will be quicker than a mechanical LSD. So, unless there is a way to defeat the "new electronic LSD" via some ECU tampering, I doubt that a real locking diff will do much.
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      08-23-2007, 01:20 PM   #5
gotgemini2000
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Ah, I was under the impression that the "fake" LSD always cuts the engine spark if one wheel begins to spin. This is the setup on my 328i's traction control and it's really just terrible. The 135i setup sounds much better, as long as the brake pads don't wear extremely quickly.
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      08-23-2007, 01:21 PM   #6
larryn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gotgemini2000 View Post
Ah, I was under the impression that the "fake" LSD always cuts the engine spark if one wheel begins to spin. This is the setup on my 328i's traction control and it's really just terrible. The 135i setup sounds much better, as long as the brake pads don't wear extremely quickly.
I suppose they would wear quickly if you continually drive like a nut. :biggrin: In the US, we get replacement pads and rotors for free, through 50k miles though, as part of the included service.
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      08-23-2007, 01:28 PM   #7
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My salesman (which I trust) has told me that BMW is launching their own version of DINAN type upgrades. These will be available within the dealership. Maybe BMW will offer a LSD.
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      08-23-2007, 01:36 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larryn View Post
The fake LSD prevents any wheels from spinning. IT becomes active when you disable the ASC/Traction Control. All it does is that instead of retarding the throttle when wheel slip is encountered (like traction control does), it applies braking to the spinning wheel, and keeps the throttle applied to the wheel with grip. The brakes would be applied to the spinning wheel, until that wheel regains grip.

I assume that since this will be using the ASB sensors, it will be quicker than a mechanical LSD. So, unless there is a way to defeat the "new electronic LSD" via some ECU tampering, I doubt that a real locking diff will do much.
Yes, but it doesn't transfer torque like an LSD.
Even though the wheel dosn't spin, you're wasting power & wearing your rear brake.
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      08-23-2007, 01:37 PM   #9
othercaracobra
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gotgemini2000 View Post
It sounds like BMW is not planning on putting a LSD in the 135i. Given this, would an after market LSD void the warranty? I will feel really stupid if I buy a brand new 135i and install a LSD only to void the warranty immediately.
Void the warranty on what? Do you mean the warranty on anything and everything on the car? Or the warranty on the differential itself?

For a mod to void a warranty it has to be related directly to the mod. For instance, installing a LSD could not be seen as a reason to deny warranty coverage for a failed fuel pump or coil pack. In fact, BMW would be hard pressed to void the warranty on anything BUT the differential itself. A dealer may argue with you, and you may have some hassles, but in the end you will only be at risk for the component affected by the mod itself.

Check this link out...

http://www.sema.org/main/semaorghome.aspx?ID=50096

and do a search on the Magnuson-Moss Act.
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      08-23-2007, 01:45 PM   #10
larryn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chriskurn View Post
My salesman (which I trust) has told me that BMW is launching their own version of DINAN type upgrades. These will be available within the dealership. Maybe BMW will offer a LSD.
I'm sure Dinan will offer performance upgrades for the 1er eventually. Currently, they only offer aftermarket locking diffs for the Z4 and 5 series though, and they are both fairly recent additions. It will be some time (if at all) before Dinan offers one for the 1er. I would not hold my breath on that one.
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      08-23-2007, 01:46 PM   #11
larryn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inTgr8r View Post
Yes, but it doesn't transfer torque like an LSD.
Even though the wheel dosn't spin, you're wasting power & wearing your rear brake.
I don't disagree with you at all.

I'd prefer a real locking diff too. I was simply explaining the new system to got gemini2000.
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      08-23-2007, 01:53 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by othercaracobra View Post
Void the warranty on what? Do you mean the warranty on anything and everything on the car? Or the warranty on the differential itself?

For a mod to void a warranty it has to be related directly to the mod. For instance, installing a LSD could not be seen as a reason to deny warranty coverage for a failed fuel pump or coil pack. In fact, BMW would be hard pressed to void the warranty on anything BUT the differential itself. A dealer may argue with you, and you may have some hassles, but in the end you will only be at risk for the component affected by the mod itself.

Check this link out...

http://www.sema.org/main/semaorghome.aspx?ID=50096

and do a search on the Magnuson-Moss Act.
This is technically correct, but practically speaking, unless you have a REALLY cool dealer, if the problem that occurs is even remotely related to the drivetrain (ie LSD) you're probably screwed, unless you want to waste tons of time and get worked up fighting over it.

It's quite easy (and frankly very legitimate) for the dealer to argue a direct relationship between drivetrain parts failure and aftermarket drivetrain components.

In certain states, the burden of proof lies with the car owner to prove the LSD did NOT cause the problem, which is difficult to do.

Once again, assume that it will void the warranty and be pleasantly surprised if they don't void it.
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      08-23-2007, 01:57 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larryn View Post
The fake LSD prevents any wheels from spinning. IT becomes active when you disable the ASC/Traction Control.
That is not correct. It will be active ALL the time. The one press release reads like it is only active when traction control is deactivated, but that is not the meaning. They were listing it as a feature that remainds enabled during enthusiast driving.

Quote:
Originally Posted by larryn View Post
I assume that since this will be using the ASB sensors, it will be quicker than a mechanical LSD.
It won't be quicker than a mechanical LSD. A mechanical LSD is instantaneous. The EDL (electronic differential lock) must recognize the condition first via the ABS sensors and then apply the brakes. While this happens in milliseconds, it cannot be faster than instantaneous.
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      08-23-2007, 01:58 PM   #14
othercaracobra
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kurichan View Post
This is technically correct, but practically speaking, unless you have a REALLY cool dealer, if the problem that occurs is even remotely related to the drivetrain (ie LSD) you're probably screwed, unless you want to waste tons of time and get worked up fighting over it.

In certain states, the burden of proof lies with the car owner to prove the LSD did NOT cause the problem, which is diificult to do.
Yeah, best bet is to discuss with the dealer before you do it so there is no mis-understanding if an issue comes up.

The other angle on this is... how in the world would a dealer know if you had a LSD installed? Really, think about it. Unless they are out doing some really abusive things with your car there is now way they will know, and then I would bet a tech would not even pick up on it (unless of course the issue is with differential itself.)
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      08-23-2007, 01:59 PM   #15
bradford
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inTgr8r View Post
Yes, but it doesn't transfer torque like an LSD.
Even though the wheel dosn't spin, you're wasting power & wearing your rear brake.
Yes it does. That's the whole point. By braking the spinning wheel, torque is transferred to the opposite wheel.
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      08-23-2007, 02:00 PM   #16
gotgemini2000
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I just wish they would put a LSD in the car stock. I plan on buying a 135i as a daily driver and will be driving in snow, rain, everything, so even though the car has traction control, I'd really like a LSD. From what I've read, installing a LSD on BMWs can be very difficult to begin with, apparently the installation frequently messes up the cruise control and many other issues can arise, thus, if I could buy a BMW factory installed LSD, even if it cost 2,000-3,000 dollars I would certainly do it.
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      08-23-2007, 02:09 PM   #17
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Guys - I know the electronic diff is new to you, but it has been an important part of Audi's Quattro system for over a decade. Quattro (in A4 and larger cars due to Longitudinal engine configuration) uses a true TORSEN center diff which transfers power front and rear mechanically. HOWEVER, side to side power distribution is handled via EDL (Electronic Differential Lock), which uses the ABS sensors to brake wheels that lose torque. BY BRAKING THE SPINNING WHEEL, TORQUE IS TRANSFERRED TO THE OTHER SIDE - THE SIDE WITH TRACTION...just like with a LSD.

It works very well, and you need not worry about overheating the rear brakes - Audi puts TEENY rear brakes on their cars (due to the front weight bias) and even at the track with 650# springs and a huge rear ARB I never had a problem with the rear brakes overheating.

All I'm saying is that you should drive the car before you make any grand plans for a diff. You might be surprised...
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      08-23-2007, 02:09 PM   #18
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I only read that one piece in the press release that clearly stated the new EDL system become active once the traction control is defeated. This makes sense too, since if it was active along with the ASC, then it would compete with the traction control system, which retards the engine on wheel slip.

Mechanical diffs work by pressure plates sensing slip. That can take more than milliseconds. That's why I did say that I was 'assuming'. Neither of us can say for sure.
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      08-23-2007, 02:12 PM   #19
larryn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradford View Post
Yes it does. That's the whole point. By braking the spinning wheel, torque is transferred to the opposite wheel.
Actually, it's not transferring torque, it's just maintaining torque, as apposed to ASC reatarding it.
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      08-23-2007, 02:14 PM   #20
larryn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradford View Post
All I'm saying is that you should drive the car before you make any grand plans for a diff. You might be surprised...
Best quote in this thread, other than all of mine, of course. :wink:

I agree too. I think it will likely satisfy most of us.

My wife drives a 2006 A4Q 2.0t, and I have yet to push it enough to get wheel slip in it. Maybe I found plan for the weekend now.
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      08-23-2007, 02:14 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradford View Post
Guys - I know the electronic diff is new to you, but it has been an important part of Audi's Quattro system for over a decade.
Thanks for the very helpful info. I have zero plans to replace the diff, but surely a mechanical diff is still better than EDL, right? Otherwise, why does BMW put mechanical diffs on its M cars?
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      08-23-2007, 02:16 PM   #22
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Is the 135i diff/electronic setup identical to the one in the 335i?
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