BMW 1 Series Coupe Forum / 1 Series Convertible Forum (1M / tii / 135i / 128i / Coupe / Cabrio / Hatchback) (BMW E82 E88 128i 130i 135i)
 





 

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      07-18-2007, 02:18 PM   #1
hector
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anyone else think that we need a sub-1 series car that truly does reincarnate the 2002(at least dimensionally) given that the e82 is closest to the e46 in overall size? i'm not considering the mini to be such a car as it's fwd etc.
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      07-18-2007, 02:39 PM   #2
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It would just be too difficult in lieu of safety standards. Cars will never be the same as they used to be....

The Mini is actually really heavy considering its size. The smaller you make a car, the more safety precautions you have to cram in there....
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      07-18-2007, 02:47 PM   #3
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it will _never_ happen again. as mentioned ... safety standards and general market expectations.

edit: i just mean i don't expect bmw to ever make cars as light as a 2002. i'm sure niche makers will fill the void or already have.
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      07-18-2007, 04:18 PM   #4
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I doubt it will happen and its FWD... but

http://www.motorauthority.com/cars/b...a-new-minicar/
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      07-18-2007, 04:43 PM   #5
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Let's see,
1) small size like the 2002
2) small lightweight engine like the 2002
3) BMW design like the 2002
4) unable to pass modern crash tests like the 2002

I know just the car for you! The Zhonghua/Brilliance Coupe.

http://www.chinacartimes.com/2006/11/18/40/

If it crash tests anything like it's big brother the BS6, it should fit the bill:

http://www.chinacartimes.com/2007/06...test-pictures/
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      07-18-2007, 11:39 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hector View Post
anyone else think that we need a sub-1 series car that truly does reincarnate the 2002(at least dimensionally) given that the e82 is closest to the e46 in overall size? i'm not considering the mini to be such a car as it's fwd etc.

I would get a lotus elise at that point.
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      07-19-2007, 12:03 AM   #7
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      07-19-2007, 12:42 AM   #8
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or a noble.
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      07-19-2007, 01:08 AM   #9
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On the it-will-never-happen argument: sorry, Mazda has proven you wrong. Their MX-5 meets all modern safety requirements, is reasonably priced, and weighs hundreds of pounds less than 1er or a Mini... and convertibles are usually a few hundred pounds heavier than equivalent coupes! True, it does only carry 2. But the 1 is only a 2+2, not a true 4 seater.
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      07-19-2007, 01:44 AM   #10
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Umm I fail to see where the Miata and 2002 parallel eachother. Of course 2-seaters don't count. Anyone could make a car with two seats and almost no storage space really light. I've never felt very safe in a Miata, anyway....

And how does 2+2 not make it a four-seater? I could swear 2+2=4. Or is it different in Canada?

I clicked on one of the BS4 crash test picture links towards the bottom and it mentions the 97 3-series getting only one star in a crash test....??? I thought those things were safe.
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      07-19-2007, 07:07 AM   #11
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Safe and modern cars don't have to get fatter, don't believe the hype!

We have the Toyota Aygo / Ciitroen C1 / Peugeot 107 in Europe. These 4 seater supermini's weigh under 800kg (1742 pounds!) and obviously meet all safety / emissions regs. The Citroen is 4* NCAP safety rated:

http://www.euroncap.com/tests/citroen_c1_2005/218.aspx

NB 800kg is about what a VW Golf (Rabbit) mk1, Peugeout 205 etc weighed in the late 70's / early 80's...so I think the above collaboration is a remarkable achievement over 25years later.

IMHO these are a far cleverer car than the 1 series will ever be, if only BMW applied the same level of intelligence to a small car I'd be delighted.

Edit: To be fair the low end, petrol 1 series are not too bad weight wise. The 118i is about 1220kg (2670 pounds) unladen - which is pretty similar to a 80's 3 series. It's the higher end / torque models where they loose the plot IMHO. Build me a 2.0 250bhp screamer BMW.
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      07-19-2007, 07:09 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hector View Post
anyone else think that we need a sub-1 series car that truly does reincarnate the 2002(at least dimensionally) given that the e82 is closest to the e46 in overall size? i'm not considering the mini to be such a car as it's fwd etc.
oops, i actually meant to say that it was closest in size overall to an e36.
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      07-19-2007, 10:54 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kindtree View Post
Umm I fail to see where the Miata and 2002 parallel eachother. Of course 2-seaters don't count. Anyone could make a car with two seats and almost no storage space really light.
??? Where do I compare the Miata to the 2002?

You obviously haven't got a clue about the effort it took Mazda to keep the weight down on the current model - like shaving grams off the rear-view mirror. Do a little research - other comparable 2 seat ragtops weigh hundreds of pounds more (S2000, Solstice/Sky).

Quote:
And how does 2+2 not make it a four-seater? I could swear 2+2=4. Or is it different in Canada?
Read a few car books/periodicals and educate yourself...
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      07-19-2007, 12:38 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danp View Post
Safe and modern cars don't have to get fatter, don't believe the hype!

We have the Toyota Aygo / Ciitroen C1 / Peugeot 107 in Europe. These 4 seater supermini's weigh under 800kg (1742 pounds!) and obviously meet all safety / emissions regs.
All the cars that you mention are FWD with transverse very small engines. Show me a RWD 4 seater with a 2l+ engine that weighs 800kg and I'll eat it whole.

The only modern BMW in the foreseable future that may have a surprisingly low weight is the upcoming Z2 roadster, designed to tackle the MX-5 on an even footing. It is reported to be a no-frills, back-to-basics, 4cyl only roadster.

Even the M version of that is likely to have a 4 cyl engine.
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      07-19-2007, 02:17 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Devon K View Post
??? Where do I compare the Miata to the 2002?

Did you read the OP? You didn't directly compare the two, but what he was asking was whether we could resurrect the 2002 at a closer size and weight to the original. The Miata is a completely different kind of car.
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      07-19-2007, 02:30 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Devon K View Post


Read a few car books/periodicals and educate yourself...
The only way the 1 is a 2+2 is if BMW is marketing it that way to give it a sportier image. I'm pretty sure the amount of room in the back seat has to be on par with my E36, and if so, the back seats are far from an afterthought.
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      07-20-2007, 12:23 PM   #17
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It's really hard to do light and small these days. I'll be interested to see if Mazda comes out with the Kabura. It could be a 2+2, smaller and lighter than an RX8 which is almost 3,000lbs.

There is rumor that BMW may come out with something to combat the Audi A1 but again that s rumor. they are listing the 135 as the 2002 successor.
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      07-20-2007, 01:10 PM   #18
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Quote:
I'm pretty sure the amount of room in the back seat has to be on par with my E36, and if so, the back seats are far from an afterthought.
That will depend on whether they have increased the space over the hatch version, which has been uniformly bashed in reviews for its lack of back seat room.
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      07-20-2007, 01:19 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kindtree View Post
Did you read the OP? You didn't directly compare the two, but what he was asking was whether we could resurrect the 2002 at a closer size and weight to the original. The Miata is a completely different kind of car.
Wasn't responding to the OP, but to the thread direction at the time of posting.

Yes the Miata is a different kind of car, but some of the same weight-saving technologies could be applied to the 1 series with attendant reductions in mass. The current Miata was only about 22kg heavier than the last version despite being bigger in all dimensions, and having increased safety features, more options, and a more powerful engine. Shows it can be done. See also the new aluminum front subframe on the 08 TTs - Audi actually dropped weight between versions with this innovation.

The fact that the 335i is only 50 or so kg more than the 135i clearly shows that BMW just didn't spend enough on weight reduction for the latter.
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      07-20-2007, 03:01 PM   #20
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I think if BMW put a serious investment into reducing the weight of the 135i without compromising it, we would be looking at a $50k car. I don't want that....

I wonder how much room there actually is in the back seat. The car is about the same length as an E36, yet taller, and even though it's a coupe, it has a steep rear window much like a sedan. I know if you compare the E36 to modern cars, it has little room in the back seat, but it still got by rather well IMO....
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      07-20-2007, 03:59 PM   #21
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      07-21-2007, 01:24 AM   #22
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Quote:
I think if BMW put a serious investment into reducing the weight of the 135i without compromising it, we would be looking at a $50k car. I don't want that....
Neither would I - but I think BMW could do it for considerably less - Mazda did it on the MX-5 without appreciably increasing the price on the new model, and it's a car that costs no more (fully loaded with the power hardtop) than the 128 will. But then BMW probably prices for profit margins more akin to Porsche's than Mazda's.
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