[stressdoc]

Some of the current engine tunes that are being considered (no doubt the accountants have already decided which one at this point, but the engineers are still in the dark...) for the ZMP / M-sport / Perf Div involve a HP increase to 335 or 340 HP. The tune includes cooling upgrades (H2O pump, intercooler plumbing) to obviate overheating problems for cyl 5 & 6. Apparently the max torque will be higher for the DCT & Step trannys because of the greater potential shock to the turbos and other components that can be transmitted during manual shifts.

This beast will be an Audi S killer.

When BMW increases power, it is accompanied by carefully engineered modifications to other supporting components.

[O-cha]

Originally Posted by stressdoc

Apparently the max torque will be higher for the DCT & Step trannys because of the greater potential shock to the turbos and other components that can be transmitted during manual shifts.

Um how did you come up with that.

[Arustik1]

Interesting

[noro]

Originally Posted by stressdoc

When BMW increases power, it is accompanied by carefully engineered modifications to other supporting components.

I know just look at the fuel pump.

[BK]

We've read numerous times that ZMP will be aesthetic only. Where's the new info coming from? Not that I'm complaining.

[Nikolas]

Originally Posted by O-cha

Um how did you come up with that.

Actually that makes sense. Turbos don't spool down as much when the AT shifts. The turbine speed fluctuates much more with a MT which I can only imagine adds wear. I could be off base, but it makes sense to me.

[O-cha]

Originally Posted by Nikolas

Actually that makes sense. Turbos don't spool down as much when the AT shifts. The turbine speed fluctuates much more with a MT which I can only imagine adds wear. I could be off base, but it makes sense to me.

You're off base. Turbos are spinning a LOT, like a LOT a lot, slower at peak torque then they are near redline where you would also be shifting often. Not reducing things there are they?

It makes sense for the driveline, frame twisting etc, but the turbos? lol

[stressdoc]

Originally Posted by O-cha

Um how did you come up with that.

Pressure changes that accompany on/off throttle during shifts cause shock waves in the turbos and are more difficult to regulate with manual trannys. It doesn't have much to do with turbine speed. Take it up with the engineering Ph.Ds. Or maybe Shiv.

Your point regarding stresses during shifts at high rpm is a good one. I don't have any info regarding power curve differences between the Step and manual tunes.

My point is simply that according to the grapevine there appears to be more to the issue than just the mechanical stresses on the drivetrain.

[mike-y]

any properly designed turbo system has a blow-off or diverter valve to bypass pressure when the throttle plates close to alleviate the shock wave that occurs. maybe there is less of this with the auto?

Originally Posted by noro

I know just look at the fuel pump.

LOL!!

[AlexVM]

Ha this reminded me of the Top Gear episode when a (ridiculously heavy) b6 S4 beat an e46 M3 around the track. Remember Audi's S and RS cars are the opposite of a bbq: better when wet.

Interesting that DCT trannys will get the more torquey versions (if I interpreted you correctly). *Last* generation's DSG from VW/Audi was only fitted to the four cylinder engines because they could only handle so much torque.

[Nikolas]

Originally Posted by O-cha

You're off base. Turbos are spinning a LOT, like a LOT a lot, slower at peak torque then they are near redline where you would also be shifting often. Not reducing things there are they?

It makes sense for the driveline, frame twisting etc, but the turbos? lol

I think that a turbo will face more wear with changes in turbine speed rather than maintaining a more consistant speed. The abrupt changes that happen with a manual transmission are more significant than with the AT.

[stressdoc]

Originally Posted by mike-y

any properly designed turbo system has a blow-off or diverter valve to bypass pressure when the throttle plates close to alleviate the shock wave that occurs. maybe there is less of this with the auto?

I think it involves the computer control of the step that provides more predictability to throttle plate closure during shifts.

[O-cha]

Originally Posted by stressdoc

Pressure changes that accompany on/off throttle during shifts cause shock waves in the turbos and are more difficult to regulate with manual trannys. It doesn't have much to do with turbine speed. Take it up with the engineering Ph.Ds. Or maybe Shiv.

Your point regarding stresses during shifts at high rpm is a good one. I don't have any info regarding power curve differences between the Step and manual tunes.

My point is simply that according to the grapevine there appears to be more to the issue than just the mechanical stresses on the drivetrain.

Yea but worries about pressure waves has to do with turbine speeds as well, and not boost pressure itself. Again airflow is much MUCH higher at higher RPM then at peak torque. If their were pressure wave issues it would be at higher airflows at higher RPM, not peak torque which occurs at lower RPMs.

Don't spread the crap you hear on the "grapevine" if you are unable to evaluate it for creditability,

[Pedal2Floor]

Given the current shift and everyone wanting to be "green", given that Cali wants even tougher emission standards, given that even Audi is now going to focus on "E" as is "Eco" models of its A class cars and given that even MBZ has said the HP wars are over -- we still think thats its going to be more HP that wins the day?

When gas prices go back to $4/$5 a gallon, few are going to worry about HP.

I believe we will see a 3 in the future that is finally more light weight then in the previous gen. HP will remain exactly where it is.

[Dackz]

Originally Posted by noro

I know just look at the fuel pump.

LMAO

[stressdoc]

Originally Posted by AlexVM

Ha this reminded me of the Top Gear episode when a (ridiculously heavy) b6 S4 beat an e46 M3 around the track. Remember Audi's S and RS cars are the opposite of a bbq: better when wet.

Interesting that DCT trannys will get the more torquey versions (if I interpreted you correctly). *Last* generation's DSG from VW/Audi was only fitted to the four cylinder engines because they could only handle so much torque.

I will have to double check on the DCT. The info singled out the manual as having lower torque rating, with some limited discussion as to the reasons. I forget if it was my presumption that the Step & DCT both have the same higher torque tuning (because they are 'not manual').

[NewSong]

Originally Posted by noro

I know just look at the fuel pump.

[mike-y]

Originally Posted by AlexVM

Interesting that DCT trannys will get the more torquey versions (if I interpreted you correctly). *Last* generation's DSG from VW/Audi was only fitted to the four cylinder engines because they could only handle so much torque.

Are you sure about that? I'm almost positive I drove a VR6 audi TT that had the DSG at buttonwillow once. I could be wrong though. And doesn't a chipped 2.0T engine make more torque than the NA V6?

EDIT: answered it myself: yes, the DSG was available with the V6 motor:

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...ticleId=102723

http://www.vwvortex.com/artman/publi...nter_317.shtml

[AlexVM]

Originally Posted by mike-y

Are you sure about that? I'm almost positive I drove a VR6 audi TT that had the DSG at buttonwillow once. I could be wrong though. And doesn't a chipped 2.0T engine make more torque than the NA V6?

EDIT: answered it myself: yes, the DSG was available with the V6 motor:

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...ticleId=102723

http://www.vwvortex.com/artman/publi...nter_317.shtml

No you are right. In fact that TT was the first production car (along with the European R32) fitted with the dual-clutch gearbox. But that was the torquiest at 250hp/230lbs. The 3.6 engine with 280hp from the Passat for example, did not get it. Nor did any other Audi save for the A3 (same engines as above) until the 2009 S4s... Besides the question of wether the tranny could handle more torque, it could not be paired to longitudinal-mounted engines, again until the 2009 S4s. You will start seeing it more and more now across the whole VW/Audi range and I get the impression that BMW will also push this technology. It is, after all, faster.

The question is wether BMW will make the mistake of not offering a manual as well, or like the original post suggested, pairing the manual tranny with the weaker engine. VW offered the last (2008) R32 with DSG only and well there are still some seating on the lots.

[voltron1011]

subscribed..

[Year's_End]

subscribed. awaiting the presence of Footie.

[BMW MotorSport]

very interesting.