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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Technical Forums > All-Wheel-Drive (Xi / xDrive) Talk > E46 to 335xi question



View Poll Results: Which car option should I go with?
Sell/trade-in M3 for 335xi-->everything I need in 1 14 60.87%
Sell/trade-in M3 for 335i+add dedicated snow wheels/tires 2 8.70%
Buy high mileage cheap wrx or other subaru for daily driving 4 17.39%
Just stick with my M3 and learn how to drive in the snow/ice better! 3 13.04%
Voters: 23. You may not vote on this poll

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      01-14-2009, 02:44 AM   #1
///Mbat
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E46 to 335xi question

This is my first post on E90 post, as I am considering selling/trading in my M3 for a 335xi. I wanted to get your opinons regarding this conversion...thanks in advance for your reply!

Work brought me to NE Ohio this past summer. I would not even consider selling the M3 if it were not for the nasty winters that NE Ohio is prone to.
That said, I am driving around my M3 with 17" M68 oem wheels with pirelli winter tires in snow/ice almost daily now. We are apparently having a nasty winter here. My M3 is doing alright so far, but driving in the snow/ice is scary. Most of my coworkers have FWD with snow tires or AWD with all-seasons or snow tires (mostly subarus), and all of them pass me with confidence on the highway. I am not sure yet is it is my lack of experience driving in this crappy weather or my platform...either way, after 2 months with snow tires, I am still not very confident, and am considering the switch.

I know a sales guy at the local dealership here, and he tells me that the 335i with snow tires would be almost as good as the 335xi with all seasons, with rare exceptions. He says that the suspension, even with sport suspension, will be a little more forgiving for the snow/ice than that of my M3. Is there any truth to this? I can grab a 335i for several thousand less right now, but finding a preowned 335xi with sport/CPO'd and other goodies that I want seems challenging.

I am hoping to stick with just one car, as I would rather not have to dig a daily driver out of the snow each morning, as I only have a 2-car garage (wife's Audi in the other side). I mean I thought about just buying a high mileage wrx to do all of my snow-play in, but I guess I have been spoiled by going out into a nice warm garage every morning where there is not a -10 wind chill to consider...

Any opinions on this? Should I wait for the right 335xi, just get the 335i and add snow wheels/tires, or just keep the M3 with snows and learn how to drive in this crap better?

thanks!
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      01-14-2009, 04:41 AM   #2
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I would first consider waiting until the end of winter to make a determination whether your winter driving skills have improved.

Secondly, consider the winter driving advantage that the M3 LSD gives you. The open differential on the 335i in conjunction with DTC/DSC interventions can be a real nuisance when driving on snowy/icy roads.

Thirdly, coming from an M3 you will be unhappy with the stock 335xi suspension. You can rectify this for about $2500, but it is a legitimate concern.

From what you're describing I would keep the M3. The 335i with snow tires is unlikely to perform any better in winter than the e46 M3 with similar snow tires, and may in fact be a little worse.

In my opinion purchasing a 335xi would make sense if you have a lot of hills where you live. If that is the case, then x-drive makes a huge difference.

If you remain intent on buying a 335xi, then I would wait until the active differential becomes available in the 3 series (lateral torque vectoring on each axle). By that time maybe the M sport options will also be available for North American 3 series.
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      01-14-2009, 10:58 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HERR FSTIR View Post
In my opinion purchasing a 335xi would make sense if you have a lot of hills where you live. If that is the case, then x-drive makes a huge difference.

If you remain intent on buying a 335xi, then I would wait until the active differential becomes available in the 3 series (lateral torque vectoring on each axle). By that time maybe the M sport options will also be available for North American 3 series.
+1.

The only reason why I got an xi was the fact that I live on top of a hill. AWD was my only option. But if you enjoy the M3, it’s pretty much guaranteed that you will not enjoy driving the 335xi. You’re coming from a sports car to a mid-size luxury car that is sort of “sporty.” Don’t be fooled by the engine. Yes the car is quick tuned, but you’ll be making a HUGE transition coming from an M car.

Test drive. Don’t make any rash decisions when it comes to purchasing a car. Also, try different snow tires. The Dunlop SP Winter Sport 3D and the Bridgestone Blizzak LM-25 have been rated better than Pirelli winter tires. Give them a shot as well ($600 is cheaper than $40,000) . Good luck!
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      01-14-2009, 03:34 PM   #4
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The 335i will not be any better than your M3 because of the open diff. I think if you are replacing a daily driver m3 for a 335xi, you will be disappointed on the days it is not snowing. My wrx with blizzak lm-22's serves as my snow duty car right now, if you can't/don't want a third car...I would look into tire options.
Which winter tires are you running? If you are running a performance winter tire...I would try a more dedicated studdless winter tire like the Blizzak WS-60 or even a studdable winter tire like the pirelli winter carving (if the snow is that bad)
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      01-15-2009, 12:02 AM   #5
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Thanks for the replies!

Ugg...there is just no simple solution right now. It took me 45 minutes to drive 12 miles to work today because the roads were slick. 3 inches of snow, 12 degrees F.

I am actually running continental contiwinter tires, not the pirellis (I have ran pirelli winters on another car). The rears have like 80% tread, and the fronts have around 40%. I did actually run the bridgestone LM-25s on some non-stock wheels, but later sold them in favor of buying the oem wheels/contis that I now run. IMO the LM-25s were no better than the contiwinters, regardless of the tirerack rankings. I think that the contiwinter is also a performance winter tire, so if I change over to a better winter tire, it should probably be the WS-60s I guess. I think that studs are illegal in my county here in Ohio, so they are out of the question. I just cannot stand sliding around while going straight. If I slide, I want it to be on purpose (which I often do in the summer time), not due to adverse driving conditions.

What I really want in a car, if I have to have just one, is performance in the spring/summer, and an uber-safe, confidence inspiring experience in the winter. I drove a 330xi with sport package. I really liked the sport seats with adjustable side bolsters, but it felt slow. I drove an X3 with the sports package, and while it looks nice, it still drives like a small SUV (not a 3-series ride like the dealer tried to tell me).

So what do you guys think, should I give new tires a try first before considering the 335Xi? I have not driven one yet, but I must say, I do love my M3, and am a fan of the RWD in all other seasons but this!

thanks again for the replies
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      01-15-2009, 10:01 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///Mbat View Post
Thanks for the replies!

Ugg...there is just no simple solution right now. It took me 45 minutes to drive 12 miles to work today because the roads were slick. 3 inches of snow, 12 degrees F.

What I really want in a car, if I have to have just one, is performance in the spring/summer, and an uber-safe, confidence inspiring experience in the winter. I drove a 330xi with sport package. I really liked the sport seats with adjustable side bolsters, but it felt slow. I drove an X3 with the sports package, and while it looks nice, it still drives like a small SUV (not a 3-series ride like the dealer tried to tell me).

So what do you guys think, should I give new tires a try first before considering the 335Xi? I have not driven one yet, but I must say, I do love my M3, and am a fan of the RWD in all other seasons but this!

thanks again for the replies
Oy. Sorry to hear about your arduous commute. Doesn't sound fun at all.

Well, the best thing for you to do right now is wait. If you can, get a set of dedicated snow/wheel combo. As suggested before, try the WS-60 and see where you can go from there. If you can get through this winter, you will have more than enough time to make a thoughtful decision.

Next step, test drive the 335xi. The car will be quite a bit quicker than the 330xi you drove before. See how you like it. If you can live with the not-so-sporty driving characteristics, then it may be the car for you. I would've LOVED to have an M3 (E46 BTW) but I'm not so much of a sporting driver in the first place, so the 335xi was good enough for me. It may, however, be very dissappointing for you. But again, if you are satisfied, then it may be the best logical solution.

Once you do get the 335xi and enjoy it, it can only get better from there. You'll have your winter setup complete (with wheels/tires), and for the summer, start modding the hell out of it. Get the coilovers, sway bars, and the strut bars to fine tune the suspension for more of the sporty characteristics. From there, a tune with bolt-on modifications will make it THAT much quicker than the E46 and even the E92 M3. There are a few members who track their cars and are A LOT more experienced when it comes to driving (they have done the mods mentioned above) and I'm sure they can chime in on their experiences.

Hope that helps. Good luck with your winter commutes and be safe out there! Hopefully you'll come to a reasonable solution (no matter how difficult it seems). It's one hell of a decision to make (probably something I wouldn't be able to decide myself).

EDIT: Pudzero has modded his xi with coilovers and has come from an E46 M3. Longodj attends autocrosses and tracks his car (insanely modded) so you may ask his opinion as well when it comes to the potential sporty charactersitics of the car.
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      01-15-2009, 10:52 AM   #7
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Cheap wrx will perform better in the snow then a 335xi.
(my old evo rocked in the snow too.)

Case in point :


It might not look much different, but if you pay attention, the subaru has better pickup and makes it around faster in the snow.

Rear LSD and smart center diff help out the sti a good bit.

Arguably the JDM evos (and now the evo x in the us) have the nicest AWD (tripple programmable differentials with torque vectoring), but they are either unavailable here (JDM) or you'd be talking about a ~new car (evo x).

You're basically talking about a company (subaru) who's bread and butter is making the best AWD performance cars they can.

I personally would get an older STI (but still the 2.5L), stick some dedicated winter tyres on it (maybe even studded), and just drive it like you stole it. You'll have a blast. You'll love the sti's torque, and it has just enough torbo lag to be 'fun lag' (i.e. you get that rush feeling, but it doesn't take so long that it's annoying (a-la evo)).

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      01-15-2009, 03:33 PM   #8
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I am going to go ahead and disagree with the other posters on this thread and say that a 335xi is a good all around compromise between putting up with an M3 in the snow and getting a dedicated winter beater. I currently drive a 335xi coupe with dedicated snow tires and it is every bit as sure footed as my 04 STi was when driving in the snow. The one thing an STi could do that you can't in the BMW is lock up the differentials. The video posted shows a 335xi and an STI pulling donuts in a parking lot, hardly an accurate depiction of their handling abilities. Also worth noting is that, because BMW AWD utilizes the stability and traction control system, the AWD is going to fight you when you try and pull donuts. The STI did not get traction control until 08 (I believe, I know the 04-06 don't have it anyway). The reason being that the STI uses a triple LSD configuration, with a variable center differential and mechanical front and rear, for its AWD. The only real advantage the Subaru system has is that, should you want to rally the car or other wise slide it around, you can pull lurid drifts through turns, safe in the knowledge that the computer is not going to try and spoil your fun. But for daily commuting this hardly matters. Btu for Subaru's rally homologation it matters a lot more.

When it comes to fair weather performance, you are going to notice that the 335xi leans a little more in the turns and has less grip than your M3, this has lead many people to say it handles badly. But this I believe is a misnomer. The suspension does a good job controlling body movements and the steering is very precise. The problem in absolute grip is the crappy run flats that come on the car. I currently use the heavy stock wheels for my winter tires and will be buying lightweight forged wheels with dedicated summer tires for the summer. This, I believe, will go a long way towards curing any absolute grip disparity between the 335xi and the M3. If I couple this with a few well chosen suspension upgrades, I don't doubt that I will be able to approach M3 levels of handling.
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      01-15-2009, 04:09 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scheherazade View Post
Cheap wrx will perform better in the snow then a 335xi.
(my old evo rocked in the snow too.)

Case in point :


-scheherazade
... after the 335 played snow-plow... I wouldn't read too much from this 'scientific' measurement.
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      01-15-2009, 09:44 PM   #10
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Thanks a lot for the new replies.

I have driven a 335xi, but it was in the early fall at around 50 degrees out, so I could not really challenge the drivetrain as far as winter applications go. I really want to drive one with the sports package on all-season tires, or better yet, winter tires, to see how it handles in current conditions. We were at 0 degrees F this evening on my way to work, with an inch of slush/ice on the road. I am getting pretty tired of this!

The problem with picking up an 04-06 Sti is that I could only afford this option if I sold my M3. I am not sure that the Sti would be a suitable all around alternative for me, because I love the refined interior of my M3. Everything is where it ought to be, and it does not have a cookie-cutter finish to it. The performance would be comparable, but there is just zero luxury involved with most of the Subaru line up (albeit the legacy and forrester with leather and all options are pretty nice, just not BMW-nice for interior). I have been spoiled, what can I say??

Per your suggestions, it really does make sense for my area to step up to more dedicated snow/ice tires such as the WS60s. If I pick up a set now, and still decide to get the 335xi later on, I can always use them for that application (I imagine the offsets might even work for the same wheels). I think Tirerack probably has the best prices, but I will check around.

I have not even tracked my M3 a single day. I took my 99 ///M coupe and 00 Honda S2000 to the track, and thoroughly enjoyed it. I just got busy after buying the M3 a few years ago, and have not been able to use it to its fullest extent. Instead, I have unfortunately racked the mileage in my M3 up to 80k now, with not a single track day to speak of. If I have my M3 this summer still, the helmet is coming out of storage!!!

If there are any members in the NE Ohio area reading this thread that have a 335xi with sport pkg and would not mind showing it off, I would love to see it!
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      01-16-2009, 05:08 AM   #11
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Since I did the same change from E46 M3 to E92 335xi, I can perhaps chime in with some experiences.

I loved the M3 most of the time, but daily driving in the winter wasn't that fun. In the snow and on ice, the DSC had to work overtime to keep me going, and one of the most frustrating things were its tendency to cut power when it detected wheel slip when I was about to overtake on the highway (LSD can only do so much). Having a sudden loss of power when you're up against oncoming traffic is not the most nice of sensations.

The other negative thing about the M3 was its harsh suspension, making me dread driving on bad roads or on the "boulder-built" roads in some cities.

As I never took it to the track, and I (almost) never drove it like I stole it, I felt I wasn't really using the M in it and I also wanted some more comfort. Still, I didn't want to let go of the power, and I had gotten used to the luxury of the BMW interior.

Enter the E92 335xi. This has about the same overtaking power as the M3 (and even more now with the JB3), a considerably more comfortable ride (with the stock suspension) even though it has 1" larger (19" vs 18") wheels, and has AWD for the winter (and wet). The only problem was that it looked like a 4x4 with its huge wheel gap in front, so I had to put out some extra 2k€ to get the KWv3 coilover, which in turn hardened up the suspension close to that of the M3 (bringing the good (handling) and the bad (comfort)). I have since been able to dial it down somewhat (although I still feel it could be a bit more comfortable, and will continue to play with the settings a bit).

As for the winter performance, there is no comparison. During the snowy days, as long as I get the car shoveled out of the snow enough to move (no garage ), I have no problem. When the roads are "only" icy, I hardly notice it at all. Of course, having AWD doesn't mean that I brake better, and this can be very easy to forget when getting forward is as easy as it is in the summer. I have the same winter studless tires I had on the M3 (albeit 18" now vs the 17" on the M3), and I can honestly say there's a world of difference, both in snow/ice during the winter and in the wet during the summer (on 19" summer tires).

Of course, I had one other incentive to make the change, and that was that I got the M3 used, whereas I got the 335xi new, which meant I could get all the fancy gadgets and options I had always wanted for the M3 (I have almost all factory options, and they amount to 1/4 of the total cost of the car (72k€ base car, 24k€ factory options, 4k€ mods)!)

- Pud.0
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      01-19-2009, 03:23 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///Mbat View Post
The performance would be comparable, but there is just zero luxury involved with most of the Subaru line up (albeit the legacy and forrester with leather and all options are pretty nice, just not BMW-nice for interior). I have been spoiled, what can I say??
You can get a 2005 Legacy GT right around $10k.
http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/n...993968865.html
http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/n...982868733.html

It's got the same engine as the STI, with a slightly smaller turbo.

Drop a couple k on it (3 or so) and make it into an STI-spanking monster.

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      01-20-2009, 09:06 AM   #13
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The e90/92 X-drive combined with a serious set of snow tires (I'm talking ones that if you drove them straight at 80mph on a sunny 70degree day you would be smelling rubber burning) such as Blizzak WS-50's is going to be unlike almost any other car out there. Only thing on the same level would be an Audi built after 2003 (but not the A3 or TT) with the same tires. Remember that those snow tires are only good for gripping on ice for the first 5000 miles or so, then they loose they softest rubber and become hard again.

These are the cars that will let you go 60-70mph in a few inches of packed snow on the highway and be changing lanes in and out of all the other cars going like 35-40mph.
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      01-22-2009, 06:29 PM   #14
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i'm going to assume that, since the option is up there, you can afford another car. so... with this in mind, why not just get something cheap that works in the snow and keep the m3 for when there isn't weather? then you have the best of both... the Xi is really good (in my opinion) but going from an M3 to an Xi... you might hate yourself for that one... good luck
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      01-22-2009, 07:37 PM   #15
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Quote:
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i'm going to assume that, since the option is up there, you can afford another car. so... with this in mind, why not just get something cheap that works in the snow and keep the m3 for when there isn't weather? then you have the best of both... the Xi is really good (in my opinion) but going from an M3 to an Xi... you might hate yourself for that one... good luck
I am still looking in to all options. The WS60s are on back-order from my local shop, so I am still running conti-winters onthe M3.

I think that it would be optimal for me to have an 08 M3 in the garage and a subaru for crappy days, but funding for this will not be available for a few years...by that time I might want something else.

I can currently tolerate commuting in the M3 in the snow/ice with performance winter tires, but it is sub-optimal. I am at a point in my life where I have to get to work regardless of what is going on with the weather. The winters in NE Ohio start in mid/late October and end late March. Thats half a year of driving a "beater" when I am used to driving something like the m3. Maybe I just need to suck it up and do things that way...I guess my hope was to make the 335xi work for me so that I could enjoy my commutes year-round (after some suspension work, of course) with two sets of tires.
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      01-22-2009, 08:05 PM   #16
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reading you're last response i might have been a little hasty to say that you'd hate yourself... ooops haha... i personally enjoy the Xi alot. its not the racer an M is, but its still alot of fun (with work i hope to make it amazing)... if you think that you're going to be in the same type of weather for along time to come. then go for it. it'll be a change but maybe a change for the better... i'm sure you had some great times in the M3, maybe its just time to get something new
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