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      12-19-2008, 01:50 PM   #1
teezee
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what's the issue with e-brake?

I see a few posters bemoaning the lack of a "real e-brake" on the newest Z model. Why is this important to some of you? It's a real question, not a slam in any way; I always learn a lot from the folks posting here.

(Disclaimer: I have absolutely no knowledge of racing techniques so forgive my ignorance if the reason relates to track or racing use)
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      12-19-2008, 03:10 PM   #2
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On a track you'd only use the handbrake if you were rallying, auto-x'ing or perhaps drifting. On circuit driving you never use it, even when you stop - unless you want your pads stuck to your discs by the heat.

I think the electronic brake is cool whilst it works, but you're essentially reliant on a switch to keep it on, whereas with the manual hand brake you know it's on and by how much.

I guess an electronic brake also makes it harder to do hand brake turns and such, but I've never tried that.

I've also never understood why people call it an emergency brake as I'm not sure what emergency situation would call for locking the rear wheels! It is however very useful for stopping the car rolling off when parked and for making good hill starts in a manual trans car.

I guess in an auto or DCT car it becomes more of an emergency or backup brake as you have no option to leave it in gear when parked, so you're totally reliant on that braking system to keep the car where you left it.
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      12-19-2008, 03:54 PM   #3
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Emergency brake relates to the time before there were dual master cylinders.
If the master cylinder failed there were no brakes other then the 'emergency' brake.
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      12-20-2008, 05:04 AM   #4
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say if your brakes failed, then you could slowly engage (slowly pulling the lever) the e-brake to make the vehicle stop.
This would be the only thing you could do to bring the vehicle to a stop "safely".
So, in that sense, this is a emergency brake.

Yeah, when you have to stop at an uphill (lights, stop sign, whatever), ebrake helps a lot when start moving and not rolling backwards.
I believe newer vehicles with MT has something like hill assist to prevent rolling though.
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      12-20-2008, 08:44 AM   #5
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the use of the electronic e-brake looks like it frees up space on the center console
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      12-20-2008, 12:03 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zirenz2006 View Post
the use of the electronic e-brake looks like it frees up space on the center console
^probably the main reason.
+ eliminates the cables & linkage.
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      12-20-2008, 04:14 PM   #7
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I'd be more comfortable if the system wasn't all-on/all-off. There are some things that's better as analogue. Or maybe I really AM getting old.
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      12-20-2008, 06:02 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dahanist View Post
say if your brakes failed, then you could slowly engage (slowly pulling the lever) the e-brake to make the vehicle stop.
This would be the only thing you could do to bring the vehicle to a stop "safely".
So, in that sense, this is a emergency brake.

Yeah, when you have to stop at an uphill (lights, stop sign, whatever), ebrake helps a lot when start moving and not rolling backwards.
I believe newer vehicles with MT has something like hill assist to prevent rolling though.
Actually the proper method of stopping a car with manual transmission when the brakes fail is to use engine braking and slowly downshift whilst rev matching. At least that's what they used to teach in England in the days before dual circuit brakes.
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      12-21-2008, 08:19 AM   #9
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you're right.
You need to down shift first - use engine brake.
But even after shifting down to the 1st gear, the car won't come to a full top, unless you stall it.
That's when you need to slowly pull the ebrake.
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      12-21-2008, 12:51 PM   #10
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Agreed, at some point you either have to stall or use the hand brake to finally stop the car.

Potentially the combination of an electronic e-brake and DCT could lead to some disappearing Z4's if the e-brake fails as I don't believe DCT will allow you to leave it in gear like the manual will.

I'm not sure how the electronic brake works, but hopefully it eliminates the cable and therefore the potential for cable-stretch. You can feel the cable starting to go with a manual brake, but you won't have that tactile feedback from the electronic version.
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      12-22-2008, 12:15 AM   #11
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Ive only ever used my e-brake when I park my cars on hills. Otherwise i've never really used the ebrake and never came across an emergency situation where I would need it.

In fact if there was a really bad emergency situation where the brakes failed and they needed stop NOW, they probably wouldn't want someone using the e-brake because if you yank on that thing while going at speed 9/10 drivers would end up in a tail spin.

With that said I still love the old manual e-brake just because that is what i'm used to. But using my logical rational side I can understand why we don't need a manual ebrake.

Devils advocate: I once spilled coke onto my center console and the circuit must have shorted because my orange triangle button (where I spilled the coke onto) stopped functioning all together. I had to take apart the console and replace the button/connector. If I did the same to my e-brake button to short it out, then would my car start to roll down the hill? I hope bmw thought about that scenario..
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      12-22-2008, 02:07 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daveI View Post
...Devils advocate: I once spilled coke onto my center console and the circuit must have shorted because my orange triangle button (where I spilled the coke onto) stopped functioning all together. I had to take apart the console and replace the button/connector. If I did the same to my e-brake button to short it out, then would my car start to roll down the hill? I hope bmw thought about that scenario..
Logically it'll either roll down hill or not be able to be released. It has to default to one or the other. Audi has this in the S5 and I guess the new A4/S4 so I wonder whether anyone with one of those knows how it works?

Safest thing with a MT is to leave it in gear then it's not going anywhere unless you want it to.
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      12-24-2008, 07:01 PM   #13
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You can't yank it and slide in the rain. Don't pretend like you guys don't do it, I know you do.

Actually I almost never do, I used to in my 318is but my 328i has more than enough power to drift without an ebrake. I imagine the Z4 with the N54 twin turbo has more than enough power as well.
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      12-24-2008, 10:37 PM   #14
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I cannot speak on behalf of the yet to be released z4 but I can about my current x5. When the vehicle is in gear and the parking brake is applied the brake computer will apply the disc brakes and activate the brake lights. When in park a physical cam will engage parking brake shoes within the rear disc. In regards to the x5 when pulled while in motion it is a very quick stop, anyone tailgating behind you not paying attention will quickly be in your back seat. With a manual transmission I am not familiar with how the parking brake shoes would function, likely based on speed sensor input.
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      12-25-2008, 09:18 PM   #15
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1. when have you been in an emergency with a brand new BMW that you need a manual e-brake because the breakes failed???
2. if you rally or drift, you would probably mod the car extensively (e-brake would be in the list)
3. new bmw's have hill assist
4. if you park at a very steep angle, along with the e-brake you should put in reverse or first gear (depending on which way the car is parked) or in an auto tranny "Park" does the same job.
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      01-04-2009, 12:55 PM   #16
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More unnecessary technology for technology's sake. iDrive, outrageously priced and underfeatured factory NAV systems, pushbutton start that requires a fob insert into the dash, beer tap-looking auto shifters, shift paddles for those who want to shift but never learned how to, electronic dipsticks that fail far too often, and now this silly pushbutton ebrake are all part of my list of crap that has no business in a driver's car. It's all luxury crap for those who are into it, and that's all well and good and it helps sell cars. But there are more than a few of us who prefer to "suffer" without all this modern BS.
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      01-06-2009, 08:47 PM   #17
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      01-07-2009, 10:26 AM   #18
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The electromechanical parking brake in the new Z4 is really cool. I includes additionally an auto-brake function when you stop the e-brake engages and when you step on the gas it disengages automatically. Who needs hill assist when you have a computer to hold the "hand" brake indefinitely?
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      01-07-2009, 01:33 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinC View Post
More unnecessary technology for technology's sake. iDrive, outrageously priced and underfeatured factory NAV systems, pushbutton start that requires a fob insert into the dash, beer tap-looking auto shifters, shift paddles for those who want to shift but never learned how to, electronic dipsticks that fail far too often, and now this silly pushbutton ebrake are all part of my list of crap that has no business in a driver's car. It's all luxury crap for those who are into it, and that's all well and good and it helps sell cars. But there are more than a few of us who prefer to "suffer" without all this modern BS.
-there's nothing wrong with the new shifter. it's different because some things need freshening. it attracts buyers and keeps products from being stale. i'm still surprised at how many people point out how fancy/upscale the new shifters look when i take them with me and browse through the dealers.

-there's nothing wrong with the new e-brake system. if you happen to be apart of the .01% of buyers who would use it to do e-brake drifts in a high-powered RWD sports car, then i'm sorry. if you have some other reason to hate it, then i'm sorry again.

-the dipsticks work fine. there aren't many cases where they've failed, but that's not to say that they're faultless. and yes many people on this forum seem to hate them.

-iDrive has improved greatly. it was fun to talk about how horrible it was around '02-'06, but it's become far better since, especially with the new iDrive 2.0. it's definitely arguable to say it's still overpriced though.

-i don't understand how so many people can rant about the start-up sequence (even for those who don't have CA). it's just like a key if anything. stick it in, push a button...instead of sticking a key in and twisting it. if you have CA there's nothing to argue with.
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      01-07-2009, 02:08 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bimmer Loyalist View Post
-there's nothing wrong with the new shifter. it's different because some things need freshening.
"needs freshening"? Why did an auto shifter need any kind of freshening? That thing looks hideous, it should be red and say "Budweiser" on it.

Quote:
-there's nothing wrong with the new e-brake system. if you happen to be apart of the .01% of buyers who would use it to do e-brake drifts in a high-powered RWD sports car, then i'm sorry. if you have some other reason to hate it, then i'm sorry again.
More technology for no good reason. A conventional e-brake works fine. This is just more cost and complexity. Just another gadget that adds NOTHING to the driving experience.

Quote:
-the dipsticks work fine. there aren't many cases where they've failed, but that's not to say that they're faultless. and yes many people on this forum seem to hate them.
Perhaps the silliest and most egregious "advancement" of all. These things DO fail often, check the E90 forums. Dipstick works fine and is 100% reliable and less costly. Again, the electronic version adds ZERO to the driving experience.

Quote:
-iDrive has improved greatly. it was fun to talk about how horrible it was around '02-'06, but it's become far better since, especially with the new iDrive 2.0. it's definitely arguable to say it's still overpriced though.
Really? What about all those people who absolutely loved the early versions of it, and ridiculed those of us who hated it with a passion? The main reason it has improved is that a lot of stuff has been moved back to conventional buttons on the dash. That's progress?!

Quote:
-i don't understand how so many people can rant about the start-up sequence (even for those who don't have CA). it's just like a key if anything. stick it in, push a button...instead of sticking a key in and twisting it. if you have CA there's nothing to argue with.
Why is this one so hard to understand? Put a key in the ignition, twist it and drive off. With this new "feature", the key is gone, yet you must still insert the clunky fob into the dash, then push a button. Completely ludicrious, and in no way is "progress" nor does it add anything to the driving experience. With Comfort Access, your wallet gets raped (and they even charge more for the exact same feature in more-expensive models - this borders on thievery), and you get to forego the fob handling. I actually like CA and found it useful (had it in my '06 E90), but to pay $500, $1000, or more for it is beyond ridiculous.

Wonder why these cars keep getting more expensive? All this crapola is one of the main reasons. The new Z4 will cost about the same as the previous M version, with none of the M goodies, that DO add to the driving experience. No thanks.
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      01-08-2009, 03:00 AM   #21
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If you don't like it, then move-on to something else.
They are making changes because many thinks that the changes are better.
Sales proves it.
If everyone agrees with you and does not buy the new producs, they (the manufacturers) will simply stop producing them.
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      01-08-2009, 03:46 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dahanist View Post
If you don't like it, then move-on to something else.
They are making changes because many thinks that the changes are better.
Sales proves it.
I don't have to move onto anything else, I already have the "perfect" car for ME, the previous Z4M Coupe.

I totally agree with your statement, many DO want this stuff, and it does drive sales numbers upwards. But in the process, they leave many enthusiasts behind, selling to a different crowd that wants all the modern stuff. From a pure business standpoint, I understand (most of) the additions. Doesn't mean a crotchety old fart like myself has to like them, however, and I'm far from alone.
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