[Quaze22]

I live in Ontario, where we're having a particularly bitterly cold January for my first winter with my 45e, so I thought I'd share my observations.

First, I'm so glad that I got my Level 2 charger installed just after Christmas. I would NOT want to leave home without a fully charged battery every morning, because I'm LOVING the pre-conditioning! It only takes a few minutes to take the chill off before I get into the car.

Leaving the garage is no problem at all. Battery range usually gets reported as 40 or 45 km. But don't count on it—cabin heating will drain that much faster than air conditioning, to my surprise. I guess everything about electrics is the opposite of ICE, including the impact of heat vs cooling on efficiency. I'd estimate the actual range is close to half what it would be in the summer.

I have Electric Individual set as my default mode. On extremely cold days, after a day parked at work (about -16C or so) I will get a message that says it isn't available for "system reasons" and it will put me in Hybrid instead, starting with a sliver of power available regardless of the level in the battery. This will cause the ICE to kick on with little or no pressure on the gas. But this lasts only for a few minutes—I assume the ICE is warming the battery, which then rises to full power.

All told it's still a great fit for my lifestyle, ie, a short commute to work, allowing me to do almost all driving electrically. And given the lack of infrastructure locally I'm very pleased to have an ICE available. Also loved having my first 4wd vehicle when I had to pull a trailer in a snow squall recently!

[LogicalApex]

I have family up near you in Angus, ON. You've been getting some cold lately.

What's your experiences been like?

[Quaze22]

Originally Posted by LogicalApex

I have family up near you in Angus, ON. You've been getting some cold lately.

What's your experiences been like?

Hit "submit" too soon and you got to me as I was typing!! See above

[LogicalApex]

Originally Posted by Quaze22

I have Electric Individual set as my default mode. On extremely cold days, after a day parked at work (about -16C or so) I will get a message that says it isn't available for "system reasons" and it will put me in Hybrid instead, starting with a sliver of power available regardless of the level in the battery. This will cause the ICE to kick on with little or no pressure on the gas. But this lasts only for a few minutes—I assume the ICE is warming the battery, which then rises to full power.

Interesting. I posted details about the same "system reasons" message when starting in the cold on my 530e in another thread and was told this is impossible on the X5 45e...

https://g05.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...1&postcount=16



But glad you're enjoying it. Preconditioning is the gift that keeps on giving. Even made me question the value of paying for the heated steering wheel on my car.

[nZtiZia]

Originally Posted by LogicalApex

Interesting. I posted details about the same "system reasons" message when starting in the cold on my 530e in another thread and was told this is impossible on the X5 45e...

hey hey now! I never said it was impossible.

the "systems reason" and "HVAC deactivated" messages are completely different. don't confuse the two.
a) the first deals with the HV battery being incapacitated due to extreme ambient temperatures affecting its operation regardless of charge level. this is well covered in the few threads about the 45e in extreme cold countries. owners stated the ICE turns on at the outset, as described by the OP. (so far, a 45e has never been reported to operate this way in extreme heat.)
b) the second deals with the HVAC system being incapacitated due to a discharged HV battery.
again, two different situations.

Originally Posted by LogicalApex

Preconditioning is the gift that keeps on giving. Even made me question the value of paying for the heated steering wheel on my car.

steering wheel heat is one of my favorite features. this was something I couldn't get in my Audis the last 11 years because it was deleted with Sport trims. i love me some hot hands and often ran errands in the winter using my wife's bimmers since 2008 because of it lol

[jad03060]

Again, there are NO heaters in the batteries of the 45e. Drawing some power out of them will warm them some as will putting some power into them, but it cannot push power in if they're full already.

In every mode, there will be some EV boost, regardless of the battery level. It may not go into electric mode initially or literally move entirely on battery power, though.

Not all BMW PHEV and EV platforms are the same, and the 45e is the latest PHEV version that isn't used (yet) on all models. So, trying to make comparisons between different series may not be valid.

At the top of the forum, there are some files that describe the system.

[Quaze22]

Originally Posted by jad03060

Again, there are NO heaters in the batteries of the 45e. Drawing some power out of them will warm them some as will putting some power into them, but it cannot push power in if they're full already.

In every mode, there will be some EV boost, regardless of the battery level. It may not go into electric mode initially or literally move entirely on battery power, though.

Not all BMW PHEV and EV platforms are the same, and the 45e is the latest PHEV version that isn't used (yet) on all models. So, trying to make comparisons between different series may not be valid.

At the top of the forum, there are some files that describe the system.

This explains something—one time the engine came on, with the battery at about 80%, but I had the impression the battery was being charged. It may well be it was charging the battery in order to warm it for a few minutes!

[LogicalApex]

Originally Posted by nZtiZia

hey hey now! I never said it was impossible.

the "systems reason" and "high voltage battery is discharged" messages regarding HVAC availability are completely different. don't confuse the two.
a) the first deals with the HV battery being incapacitated due to extreme ambient temperatures affecting its operation regardless of charge level. this is well covered in the few threads about the 45e in extreme cold countries. owners stated the ICE turns on at the outset, as described by the OP.
b) the second deals with the HVAC system being incapacitated due to a discharged HV battery.
again, two different situations.


steering wheel heat is one of my favorite features. this was something I couldn't get in my Audis the last 11 years because it was deleted with Sport trims. i love me some hot hands and often ran errands in my wife's bimmers since 2008 because of it lol

They are two very different situations I agree. The car can be different in them too. I probably should have been more clear in separating them out. My overlap in explaining them was largely due to the temperature of the battery influencing what happens.

As I can precondition my car on a day when it is 100F outside and get into a cold car that will then activate the ICE to get it to a safe temperature for driving...

Originally Posted by jad03060

Again, there are NO heaters in the batteries of the 45e. Drawing some power out of them will warm them some as will putting some power into them, but it cannot push power in if they're full already.

In every mode, there will be some EV boost, regardless of the battery level. It may not go into electric mode initially or literally move entirely on battery power, though.

Not all BMW PHEV and EV platforms are the same, and the 45e is the latest PHEV version that isn't used (yet) on all models. So, trying to make comparisons between different series may not be valid.

At the top of the forum, there are some files that describe the system.

I've read those documents both for the 530e and the 45e. They are largely the same. BMW even notes that in the 45e enhancements to the PHEV platform it is largely the same...

I'm not saying there is a dedicated heater for the battery on either car... I'm saying the car heats the battery in extremely cold temperatures. Since this isn't covered in the manual or technical documents for either car (only cooling is) it is something we're left to guess how it actually does this. I have no guess on exactly how it is achieved.

But that's why I shared the photo I shared in that thread. Of my battery being 100% already. My ICE running to "warm it" and it showing no energy going into the battery (you can't charge an already charged battery).

I'd bet a beer that if the OP set his 45e in Barrie, ON to be 100% charged when he parked it outside of his work at -16C or so he's been encountering. He would turn his car on and get the same message he noted in his original post. With his ICE running for "system reasons" temporarily. Even though his battery has no capacity for being charged.

I am only so sure that BMW hasn't removed these features because they would be a pretty significant regression in functionality if they did. As it would put extreme demands on the PHEV battery in those temperatures (Li-Ion really performs poorly when cold). Since our cars are a combined ICE+EV power output if they allowed this regression it would mean extremely poor EV power until the battery got warmed up naturally. Meaning owners in cold climates would be left complaining about how weak the cars are when it is cold out.

But if I had to guess how they are doing it. They are running the AC compressor to warm the battery and everything is happening over the refrigerant lines. Since those can be at temperatures separate from what we would prefer.

[philooo]

If only BMW could add some heating element to the ELECTRIC PLUG door and hinges.... then may be I could close the damn door instead of having to pee on it to de-ice ! :S

[nZtiZia]

Originally Posted by LogicalApex

They are two very different situations I agree. The car can be different in them too. I probably should have been more clear in separating them out. My overlap in explaining them was largely due to the temperature of the battery influencing what happens.

the "systems reason" message is completely influenced by the battery's temp, but with all your logic, you never elucidated an actual incident of the "HVAC deactivated" message affecting you, so I don't quite understand how they're similar enough to cause an overlap.

HV battery unavailable and HVAC deactivated aren't the same thing.

[Quaze22]

Originally Posted by philooo

If only BMW could add some heating element to the ELECTRIC PLUG door and hinges.... then may be I could close the damn door instead of having to pee on it to de-ice ! :S

Well…THAT's a unique solution! Also works for jellyfish stings, I hear.

[Quaze22]

Originally Posted by LogicalApex

Interesting. I posted details about the same "system reasons" message when starting in the cold on my 530e in another thread and was told this is impossible on the X5 45e...

https://g05.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...8;postcount=16



But glad you're enjoying it. Preconditioning is the gift that keeps on giving. Even made me question the value of paying for the heated steering wheel on my car.

I find the heated steering wheel a necessity—because touch controls and gloves aren't a good combination!

[Quaze22]

Originally Posted by LogicalApex

They are two very different situations I agree. The car can be different in them too. I probably should have been more clear in separating them out. My overlap in explaining them was largely due to the temperature of the battery influencing what happens.

As I can precondition my car on a day when it is 100F outside and get into a cold car that will then activate the ICE to get it to a safe temperature for driving...

I've read those documents both for the 530e and the 45e. They are largely the same. BMW even notes that in the 45e enhancements to the PHEV platform it is largely the same...

I'm not saying there is a dedicated heater for the battery on either car... I'm saying the car heats the battery in extremely cold temperatures. Since this isn't covered in the manual or technical documents for either car (only cooling is) it is something we're left to guess how it actually does this. I have no guess on exactly how it is achieved.

But that's why I shared the photo I shared in that thread. Of my battery being 100% already. My ICE running to "warm it" and it showing no energy going into the battery (you can't charge an already charged battery).

I'd bet a beer that if the OP set his 45e in Barrie, ON to be 100% charged when he parked it outside of his work at -16C or so he's been encountering. He would turn his car on and get the same message he noted in his original post. With his ICE running for "system reasons" temporarily. Even though his battery has no capacity for being charged.

I am only so sure that BMW hasn't removed these features because they would be a pretty significant regression in functionality if they did. As it would put extreme demands on the PHEV battery in those temperatures (Li-Ion really performs poorly when cold). Since our cars are a combined ICE+EV power output if they allowed this regression it would mean extremely poor EV power until the battery got warmed up naturally. Meaning owners in cold climates would be left complaining about how weak the cars are when it is cold out.

But if I had to guess how they are doing it. They are running the AC compressor to warm the battery and everything is happening over the refrigerant lines. Since those can be at temperatures separate from what we would prefer.

My guess would actually be that they're charging the battery—based on the sound and severely increased fuel consumption. Like, 20L/100km, at 60 kph.

[4ML INC]

Originally Posted by Quaze22

I live in Ontario, where we're having a particularly bitterly cold January for my first winter with my 45e, so I thought I'd share my observations.

First, I'm so glad that I got my Level 2 charger installed just after Christmas. I would NOT want to leave home without a fully charged battery every morning, because I'm LOVING the pre-conditioning! It only takes a few minutes to take the chill off before I get into the car.

Leaving the garage is no problem at all. Battery range usually gets reported as 40 or 45 km. But don't count on it—cabin heating will drain that much faster than air conditioning, to my surprise. I guess everything about electrics is the opposite of ICE, including the impact of heat vs cooling on efficiency. I'd estimate the actual range is close to half what it would be in the summer.

I have Electric Individual set as my default mode. On extremely cold days, after a day parked at work (about -16C or so) I will get a message that says it isn't available for "system reasons" and it will put me in Hybrid instead, starting with a sliver of power available regardless of the level in the battery. This will cause the ICE to kick on with little or no pressure on the gas. But this lasts only for a few minutes—I assume the ICE is warming the battery, which then rises to full power.

All told it's still a great fit for my lifestyle, ie, a short commute to work, allowing me to do almost all driving electrically. And given the lack of infrastructure locally I'm very pleased to have an ICE available. Also loved having my first 4wd vehicle when I had to pull a trailer in a snow squall recently!

I am also in cold weather (though not Ontario cold) and then pretty hot weather in June - Sept. and was wondering how long you precondition you car to get the chill out?

[jad03060]

Originally Posted by 4ML INC

I am also in cold weather (though not Ontario cold) and then pretty hot weather in June - Sept. and was wondering how long you precondition you car to get the chill out?

The computer will shut preconditioning off after about 30-minutes on the PHEV, and 15-minutes on the ICE. Depending on the ambient conditions, it may be comfortable in less time than that. In the winter, if the vehicle is parked outside, preconditioning makes removal of snow and ice MUCH easier.

[4ML INC]

Originally Posted by jad03060

The computer will shut preconditioning off after about 30-minutes on the PHEV, and 15-minutes on the ICE. Depending on the ambient conditions, it may be comfortable in less time than that. In the winter, if the vehicle is parked outside, preconditioning makes removal of snow and ice MUCH easier.

Sounds good. Car is parked in a garage - but it does get cold in there too. Probably around 55 degrees fahrenheit at it's coldest. Around 8am - which is usually when I leave for work - it is probably around 58-60 degrees.

So, I'm hoping - if I pre-condition for about 8-10 minutes - that should be good enough - maybe? I just want the chill out - I like slightly lower temperatures anyway.

[jad03060]

If you really leave at the same time, setup a departure time, and you can select the days of the week you want it to occur. If you want to do it so it's warm when you leave work, you can set a second one for that time as well. There are three scheduled slots, and then an on-demand one that starts when you activate it.

You can set the climate rules to enable the seat heater (if you have that option) and heated steering wheel as well. In the summer, it would use the a/c system, if needed.

[nZtiZia]

Originally Posted by 4ML INC

So, I'm hoping - if I pre-condition for about 8-10 minutes - that should be good enough - maybe? I just want the chill out - I like slightly lower temperatures anyway.

try it and find out. there's too many variables to give a dependable answer

[Quaze22]

Originally Posted by 4ML INC

I am also in cold weather (though not Ontario cold) and then pretty hot weather in June - Sept. and was wondering how long you precondition you car to get the chill out?

Just a few minutes—10 minutes tops. I'm not shooting for full temp, just as you say to take the chill off before driving away.

[Quaze22]

Originally Posted by 4ML INC

Sounds good. Car is parked in a garage - but it does get cold in there too. Probably around 55 degrees fahrenheit at it's coldest. Around 8am - which is usually when I leave for work - it is probably around 58-60 degrees.

So, I'm hoping - if I pre-condition for about 8-10 minutes - that should be good enough - maybe? I just want the chill out - I like slightly lower temperatures anyway.

That will be plenty. You'll be very comfortable. I precondition for the same time when it's -17C!

[4ML INC]

Originally Posted by Quaze22

That will be plenty. You'll be very comfortable. I precondition for the same time when it's -17C!

Great. I will start with pre-conditioning it for 5-7 minutes and adjust accordingly.

[jad03060]

Preconditioning is still controlled by the thermostats, so it can modulate or stop the HVAC functions, but generally, will keep the fans on, just like the thermostat in your home.