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      11-05-2008, 05:44 PM   #1
antigrav
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'07+ M3 scca solo2/autocross

Anyone have much experience autocrossing an e90/92/93 m3?

I've driven a variety of cars, including the C5 and C6 Z06's and the Elise in many local, and a few national, events over the last few years.

Would like to give the e90 m3 a try.

Appears that the SEB has not classed the car yet, which means that it would be placed in SS.

Can't really expect the car to be competitive there, against the Z06, 911 GT3, Lotus Elise, etc.

Even in AS, if that's where it eventually lands, not sure the car would be competitive against the S2000.


Course, the handling seems to be pretty incredible, so maybe the car will fare better than expected. And, competitive or not, it should be fun.

Anyone want to share experiences or setup tips?


Here's what I've been thinking...

Stock sized wheels are mandated in SCCA stock class. That yields the following options in Hoosier A6's...
255/35 ZR18 front (fits 8.5-10")
275/35 ZR18 rear (fits 9-11" width wheels)

Another option for the rear is 295/30 ZR18. That should barely fit on the 9.5" stock wheel. And, from what I gathered in some other posts, shouldn't rub.

However, with such a big differential in width between front and rear (255 versus 295), I wonder if that might potentially throw off the nice neutral balance in cornering which is a hallmark of the car.

Unfortunately, 255 appears to be the widest option available, at least from Hoosier, which will fit on the front wheels.


Aside from tires, any other SCCA stock-legal modifications anyone has had experience with?

The stock shocks seem to work well, probably stack up ok, especially in cost/benefit terms, against adjustable replacements.

Appears that the car can't be lowered further, without modifications which wouldn't be allowed in a stock class.

How about alignment? With stock parts, is it possible to achieve perhaps -1.5 degrees camber; front and rear? How about toe and caster?


MDM and the ability to completely disable DSC are nice. Does the car switch to a crippled or restricted mode when tire sensors aren't detected (in other words, are they a necessity for race wheels)?


thanks,
-ag
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      11-06-2008, 08:36 PM   #2
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I've been autoxing for quite a while, but haven't really done any events in my E90. I usually take the E90 when we setup the coarse the day before the event and have done a few runs in it. Overall it does fairly well, but you can certainly feel the weight. It feels pretty good through slaloms since the steering is so fast. I haven't checked to see how much negative camber I can get out of the stock suspension yet since I don't really plan on driving it much at events.

I'm thinking of getting a set of 18x10s with 285 710s for my E36 and may try an event with them on the E90. I think with a good set of R tires and some negative camber the E90 should perform pretty well.

The car won't go into any kind of limp mode if tire pressure sensors aren't detected, but you'll get a warning on the dash.
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      11-08-2008, 08:52 PM   #3
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I think the car will be left in SS.

I brought the car to my first autoX on stock tires, stock alignment, I was 2 secs behind the top A-Stock car on Hoosiers (Former National Champion) and 4 secs behind FTD which is the multi EM National Champ.

I'm rusty, I did not drive well. It was a mid 30s course. With a good driver, fat A6 and an autoX alignment, I doubt the S2000 will stand a chance. I had two S2000 previously.

Personally, I think it's too much car for A-Stock, and too little for SS.

Lots of thing to fix within SCCA stock rules:

1) A way stiffer front sway to keep the rear planted on turn exit
2) Choose a 6-speed not a 7-speed
3) Toe and camber settings
4) 19" A6 not 18", due to the larger diameter and better gearing with 19"
5) shocks
6) muffler bypass pipes
7) LW wheels
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      11-09-2008, 01:21 PM   #4
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The M3 has to overcome limited front camber and a lot of weight. It has no chance to be nationally competitive with the current SS crop. Would love to see it in AS. However, with AS being as well subscribed as it is, the SEB is probably more concerned about upsetting the apple cart. I think it would have helped to have had e46 M3s being campaigned nationally in AS. They face similar challenges as the e92 and it would help the case for the new M3 if there were numbers showing the e46 way off the AS pace.

Posted some same driver/day numbers below from Thomason's R&T autocross test. The C6 isn't the fastest SS and the EVO isn't a fast AS car. These are stock vehicles, but I don't know if the stock class modifications would change the delta much.

C6 Z06 41.82
E92 M3 42.74
EVO X MR 43.07
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      11-10-2008, 12:28 PM   #5
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I’m pretty sure I know the OP. He’s seen my E90 M3 run against him in the Rocky Mountain Region events twice. I’ve been within 10% of his Z06 times running completely stock (factory alignment, PS2's, etc.). The car has potential at least locally. It’ll be fun come spring when we’ll be going head-to-head. Maybe I’ll even show up for a winter event wearing my snow tires if you promise to run yours Anyhow, I'm looking forward to our future competition between our two M3 sedans....

My only advice is to disable the TCS. It was worth a full second on my last event at PPIR. Wish I could offer something more, but I'm still learning the car too.....
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      12-07-2008, 02:35 PM   #6
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I looked at the SCCA classification and decided to stick with the BMW club. I take delivery of my coupe in January and will run some of the Rocky Mountain Region events in 2009. Maybe I'll see a couple of you guys there. I'll be in a Silverstone coupe.

Dave
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      12-07-2008, 03:12 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcstep View Post
I looked at the SCCA classification and decided to stick with the BMW club. I take delivery of my coupe in January and will run some of the Rocky Mountain Region events in 2009. Maybe I'll see a couple of you guys there. I'll be in a Silverstone coupe.

Dave
Congrats on the new car. Hope to see you at an event.

I've actually done one SCCA winter series event since the original post.

The car exceeded my expectations. Even with the killer SS multiplier, managed 2nd in the indexed street tire class, behind the reigning ladies C-street prepared national champ.

The M3 ran, on the PS2's, approximately 2s slower than a well prepared SS C5 Z06 on race rubber, driven by a pair of competent local drivers.

Course the cold weather probably favors street tires a bit.

We'll see how it does in a better subscribed summer series event. Maybe I'll break down and buy a set of A6's, eventually.

-ag
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      12-08-2008, 09:01 PM   #8
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ag, sounds like you're a competitive driver. I generally think that R-compounds are worth 1.5 seconds, subject to course length and condition. To be that close to a Z06 says to me that you're a good driver. I'm thinking that the E92 will be a great PAX index car in club events.

I enjoy good competition, so this should be fun. One reason that I loved F-stock and ESP in SCCA was all the great drivers. We all had a blast. It was almost as much fun to sit in the paddock with a .1 second lead and watch great drivers try to beat you as it was driving. Well, not quite...

Dave
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      12-15-2008, 07:50 PM   #9
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How many autocross events you think the PS2s will last before the need for a new set?
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      12-15-2008, 08:42 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiebrudo View Post
How many autocross events you think the PS2s will last before the need for a new set?
Hopefully at least two or three.

No, seriously, probably ~8 events. Maybe a full season?

-ag
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      12-16-2008, 10:26 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3Rad View Post
I think the car will be left in SS.



Lots of thing to fix within SCCA stock rules:

1) A way stiffer front sway to keep the rear planted on turn exit
2) Choose a 6-speed not a 7-speed
3) Toe and camber settings
4) 19" A6 not 18", due to the larger diameter and better gearing with 19"
5) shocks
6) muffler bypass pipes
7) LW wheels
I understand everything other than the preference fro 19" wheels vs. 18". I've ordered my car with 19" wheels and found a set of 18" take-offs for my snow tires. I was also thinking that going to 18" with the lowest profile available would give me a higher numerical final drive ratio for autocross use. I'm thinking that the higher effective torque would be the way to go. Larger wheels, all other things being equal, reduce acceleration, IME.

Am I missing something?

Also, will the E9x meet sound restrictions with muffler bypass pipes???

I'm really curious to read what toe and camber settings can be achieved with the stock camber plates.

Dave
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      12-17-2008, 05:37 PM   #12
antigrav
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcstep View Post
I understand everything other than the preference fro 19" wheels vs. 18". I've ordered my car with 19" wheels and found a set of 18" take-offs for my snow tires. I was also thinking that going to 18" with the lowest profile available would give me a higher numerical final drive ratio for autocross use. I'm thinking that the higher effective torque would be the way to go. Larger wheels, all other things being equal, reduce acceleration, IME.

Am I missing something?

Also, will the E9x meet sound restrictions with muffler bypass pipes???

I'm really curious to read what toe and camber settings can be achieved with the stock camber plates.

Dave

Good questions. I also didn't catch the advantage of 19's over 18's gearing-wise.

Tire-wise, it seems like someone on 19" will face a more serious disadvantage... tire selection.

For an 18" wheel, in Hoosier A6's, I was looking at 255/35-18 front and 275/35-18 rear, with the possibility of going with 295's.

In 19's, the options are more limited... 265/35 or 295/30, which exceeds the recommended minimum rim width.

So, if you're running 19's, and the 295 won't fit, you'd have to go down to the 265's in the rear. And, even worse, for the fronts.. Hoosier says the 265/19 requires at least a 9" wide wheel. If those can't be shoe-horned on, you're stuck with 235's.

Here's a summary of the Hoosier A6 options for the two wheel sizes:

18"
Front: 255/35 or 275/35*
Rear: 275/35 or 295/30
19"
Front: 235/35 or 265/35*
Rear: 265/35 or 295/30*

* exceeds the minimum rim width recommendation


-ag
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      06-20-2009, 11:39 AM   #13
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here's the 2009 stock category classification by make.

http://cms.scca.com/documents/Solo_R...nufacturer.pdf
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      06-20-2009, 12:07 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by V1.47fan View Post
here's the 2009 stock category classification by make.

Yeah, I saw the SS a couple of weeks ago.

Up here at high altitude the 335i might be pretty competitive in F-Stock against all those normally aspirated pony cars. Hmm...

Dave
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      06-20-2009, 04:50 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcstep View Post
Yeah, I saw the SS a couple of weeks ago.

Up here at high altitude the 335i might be pretty competitive in F-Stock against all those normally aspirated pony cars. Hmm...

Dave
+1,the 335i will do very well in overall PAX .

The 420 hp RS4 that doesn't weigh that much more and has AWD is in AS.
The good thing is at least the SCCA thinks the E9X M3 is worthy to be in Super Stock and not the RS4.
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      06-20-2009, 05:16 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by V1.47fan View Post
+1,the 335i will do very well in overall PAX .

The 420 hp RS4 that doesn't weigh that much more and has AWD is in AS.
The good thing is at least the SCCA thinks the E9X M3 is worthy to be in Super Stock and not the RS4.
Faint praise. I'd rather be running an RS4 in AS than an M3 in SS. I think that they need to add two or three more classes.

I've resigned myself to PAXing it in BMWCCA solo and maybe doing some track days. I decided a decade or so that I wasn't going to make a run at the SCCA national championship, so I'm in it only for fun now and just drive a car that I really enjoy.

Dave
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      06-20-2009, 06:51 PM   #17
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Quote:
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Faint praise. I'd rather be running an RS4 in AS than an M3 in SS. I think that they need to add two or three more classes.

I've resigned myself to PAXing it in BMWCCA solo and maybe doing some track days. I decided a decade or so that I wasn't going to make a run at the SCCA national championship, so I'm in it only for fun now and just drive a car that I really enjoy.

Dave
Also sub-classes like SS,AS street tires along side ST,STU,STX. I don't know if it makes sense to have vastly superior R-comps (hoosier A6 etc.) and street tires in the same stock class?

Or do what some SCCA regions have,a street tire class for stock cars only, then pax the class results.
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      06-20-2009, 10:58 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by V1.47fan View Post
Also sub-classes like SS,AS street tires along side ST,STU,STX. I don't know if it makes sense to have vastly superior R-comps (hoosier A6 etc.) and street tires in the same stock class?

Or do what some SCCA regions have,a street tire class for stock cars only, then pax the class results.
That's what they're doing in the SCCA's Texas Region now. When I was there I ran Rs and I see that all the top drivers there now are on Rs. The Rocky Mountain Chapter of BMWCCA runs them in separate classes. I'll be on street for this year.

Dave
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