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      12-23-2020, 08:11 AM   #1
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Throttle House: 2021 M5 Competition Review // $120k Monster in a Suit

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      12-23-2020, 09:18 AM   #2
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Can owners echo Thomas' gripe about this car? That the steering is too numb?
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      12-23-2020, 11:21 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bforbrian View Post
Can owners echo Thomas' gripe about this car? That the steering is too numb?
I cannot confirm as I have the 2018 non comp, but this same comment has been made about the steering in reviewsof the F90 M5s since the 2018 was released.
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      12-23-2020, 12:03 PM   #4
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I thought all modern BMW gets that numb comment
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      12-23-2020, 12:25 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by bforbrian View Post
Can owners echo Thomas' gripe about this car? That the steering is too numb?
I've had 2 of them (both Comps) and now an M8 Comp—I don't find it numb. That said, it's not communicative in the ways my older Ms were but I can say with certainty that, through a decent level of feedback, I know what the wheels are doing and where their facing—it goes where you point it. Where the feedback falls short for me is right on the edge—I find it hard, even after all the miles I've done in these 3 cars (>60,000) to predict when it's going to let go... which isn't often but you know.

Regardless, how many cars warrant the question, "did you poo?" let alone, "did you poo, too?" Right there, that's a mic drop moment.
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      12-23-2020, 12:30 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bforbrian View Post
Can owners echo Thomas' gripe about this car? That the steering is too numb?
I'd say a little too numb for how much power there is, but it's still very compliant and direct. Not quite an owner, but I drove an LCI and pre-LCI back to back while making a decision on my next purchase and didn't notice much of a difference in feel, the post LCI was a tad bit more loose in comfort settings, while still feeling quite strong/flat/direct, but really only noticeable in back to back sessions.

I'm sure I would get a better feel for the car with time, but I just couldn't find the limits like I can in my F80, nor as quickly as I can if I jump in an F87 after not touching one for a few months. The nice thing is that I didn't feel as much of an itch to drive it at the limits like I do in my F80. Really, it's sort of the point, it's just a game of compromise, you can't have amazing steering feel with a car that's also smooth and quiet on the roads. The things I love about my F80 directly cause the things I hate about my F80, stupid physics and such.

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I thought all modern BMW gets that numb comment
I'd say there are varying degrees of it, straight pipes review of the F87 M2CS seemed to be one of the only reviews of a modern BMW where they at least said they got it right.
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      12-23-2020, 02:15 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by clee1982 View Post
I thought all modern BMW gets that numb comment
I'd say that's pretty accurate from the bimmers I've tested. Surprisingly the best BMW steering I think is in the Supra.
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      12-23-2020, 03:57 PM   #8
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Think of it as the best AMG saloon ever made and then this car makes sense.
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      12-23-2020, 05:42 PM   #9
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Thomas daily drives and e46 m3. Yes the m5 or any modern BMW with electric steering is going to feel numb compared to that.
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      12-23-2020, 05:46 PM   #10
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Thomas daily drives and e46 m3. Yes the m5 or any modern BMW with electric steering is going to feel numb compared to that.
Well yes, but he's also driven the entire class of cars, as well as hundreds of new cars with EPS. He mentioned in the video even compared to its competitors (E63, RS6) that the steering was lacking, he's not comparing it to hydraulic vehicles but also other EPS vehicles within the class.
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      12-23-2020, 06:09 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stein_325i View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2kaccordocoupe View Post
Thomas daily drives and e46 m3. Yes the m5 or any modern BMW with electric steering is going to feel numb compared to that.
Well yes, but he's also driven the entire class of cars, as well as hundreds of new cars with EPS. He mentioned in the video even compared to its competitors (E63, RS6) that the steering was lacking, he's not comparing it to hydraulic vehicles but also other EPS vehicles within the class.
I agree. BMW does not do EPS well.
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      12-23-2020, 09:25 PM   #12
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But the black and pink on the eAMG ..? What the hell is that?!
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      12-23-2020, 11:35 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2kaccordocoupe View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by stein_325i View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2kaccordocoupe View Post
Thomas daily drives and e46 m3. Yes the m5 or any modern BMW with electric steering is going to feel numb compared to that.
Well yes, but he's also driven the entire class of cars, as well as hundreds of new cars with EPS. He mentioned in the video even compared to its competitors (E63, RS6) that the steering was lacking, he's not comparing it to hydraulic vehicles but also other EPS vehicles within the class.
I agree. BMW does not do EPS well.
Or they intentionally tune it that way? Thomas also liked M2CS steering and look at what Supra did with the same hardware.
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      12-24-2020, 01:33 AM   #14
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Apparently they never drove the f10 M5 or the e60. LCI F90 is by far the closest as far as steering feedback to my favorite e39 M5. I think F90 is by far much better than F10.
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      12-24-2020, 06:40 AM   #15
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So they say a 3 second 0 to 60. Elsewhere I here 2.6. Which is it?
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      12-24-2020, 07:25 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clee1982 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2kaccordocoupe View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by stein_325i View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2kaccordocoupe View Post
Thomas daily drives and e46 m3. Yes the m5 or any modern BMW with electric steering is going to feel numb compared to that.
Well yes, but he's also driven the entire class of cars, as well as hundreds of new cars with EPS. He mentioned in the video even compared to its competitors (E63, RS6) that the steering was lacking, he's not comparing it to hydraulic vehicles but also other EPS vehicles within the class.
I agree. BMW does not do EPS well.
Or they intentionally tune it that way? Thomas also liked M2CS steering and look at what Supra did with the same hardware.
Most of the models are intentionally numb, like the cookie cutter 3-series or X3 that they'll lease to soccer moms or people who don't care about driving. However the M cars, which are designed for enthusiasts, in my opinion deserve a better steering tune. Even the best steering, which is in the M2 (at the moment, haven't tried the CS) is still sadly numb.

Part of the reason Thomas liked the CS steering was also because of the more natural weighting, however they never actually stated it to be communicative. BMW has had trouble over the years with both communication and weighting with their EPS, example: sport steering settings would add unnecessarily synthetic heft to the wheel with no additional feedback.

I believe BMW uses ZF steering racks. Cadillac also uses these racks in the prior generation ATS-V and they are on the other end of the spectrum with great feedback and weighting. Its all down to the tuning I believe.

This is a great article from C/D which explains BMW's EPS steering design. https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a1...steering-feel/
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      12-24-2020, 07:27 AM   #17
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So they say a 3 second 0 to 60. Elsewhere I here 2.6. Which is it?
0-60 is quoted at 3.0 seconds from BMW, of course BMW also underrates their numbers.
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      12-24-2020, 08:19 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stein_325i View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by flanast View Post
So they say a 3 second 0 to 60. Elsewhere I here 2.6. Which is it?
0-60 is quoted at 3.0 seconds from BMW, of course BMW also underrates their numbers.
2.9s are the fastest stock times I've seen. With a JB4, I consistently ran 2.57s per Dragy. ECU tunes combined with bolt-ons can lower that number further.
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      12-24-2020, 08:22 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by limeypride View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by stein_325i View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by flanast View Post
So they say a 3 second 0 to 60. Elsewhere I here 2.6. Which is it?
0-60 is quoted at 3.0 seconds from BMW, of course BMW also underrates their numbers.
2.9s are the fastest stock times I've seen. With a JB4, I consistently ran 2.57s per Dragy. ECU tunes combined with bolt-ons can lower that number further.
Yeah, the lowest I've seen is 2.6 from car and driver, however they incorporate a 0.3 second rollout into all of their tests, so realistically a 2.9 second sprint to 60. Regardless the car is more than fast enough for anyone
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      12-24-2020, 09:12 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stein_325i View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by flanast View Post
So they say a 3 second 0 to 60. Elsewhere I here 2.6. Which is it?
0-60 is quoted at 3.0 seconds from BMW, of course BMW also underrates their numbers.
https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...of-the-decade/
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      12-24-2020, 09:12 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stein_325i View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by limeypride View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by stein_325i View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by flanast View Post
So they say a 3 second 0 to 60. Elsewhere I here 2.6. Which is it?
0-60 is quoted at 3.0 seconds from BMW, of course BMW also underrates their numbers.
2.9s are the fastest stock times I've seen. With a JB4, I consistently ran 2.57s per Dragy. ECU tunes combined with bolt-ons can lower that number further.
Regardless the car is more than fast enough for anyone
Blasphemy!
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      12-24-2020, 09:22 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stein_325i View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by clee1982 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2kaccordocoupe View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by stein_325i View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2kaccordocoupe View Post
Thomas daily drives and e46 m3. Yes the m5 or any modern BMW with electric steering is going to feel numb compared to that.
Well yes, but he's also driven the entire class of cars, as well as hundreds of new cars with EPS. He mentioned in the video even compared to its competitors (E63, RS6) that the steering was lacking, he's not comparing it to hydraulic vehicles but also other EPS vehicles within the class.
I agree. BMW does not do EPS well.
Or they intentionally tune it that way? Thomas also liked M2CS steering and look at what Supra did with the same hardware.
Most of the models are intentionally numb, like your cookie cutter 3-series or X3 that they'll lease to soccer moms or people who don't care about driving. However the M cars, which are designed for enthusiasts, in my opinion deserve a better steering tune. Even the best steering, which is in the M2 (at the moment, haven't tried the CS) is still sadly numb.

Part of the reason Thomas liked the CS steering was also because of the more natural weighting, however they never actually stated it to be communicative. BMW has had trouble over the years with both communication and weighting with their EPS, example: sport steering settings would add unnecessarily synthetic heft to the wheel with no additional feedback.

I believe BMW uses ZF steering racks. Cadillac also uses these racks in the prior generation ATS-V and they are on the other end of the spectrum with great feedback and weighting. Its all down to the tuning I believe.

This is a great article from C/D which explains BMW's EPS steering design. https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a1...steering-feel/
Great article and disturbing at the same time. C&D had to explain, by giving examples, what great feedback is in a car with EPS. Basically the Porsche lineup. Most buyer, not on this forum, want LESS steering effort and "feel". I'm over here wanting the complete opposite. Ha!
I imagine there will be a time you will be able to alter the steering to your liking far more than you can now.
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