[a404freedom]

I wanted to get opinions or recommendations. My car does have the Harmon Kardon audio set. I have blown my 3.5" front speakers and I do have warranty on the system. They can be replaced but this also gives me the option of going aftermarket.

Compared to the speakers I currently have, would it make sense to go different? A heads up, i do NOT want to spent insane money. Im not blaring the music, i just expected more lower end from what i have. I was basing adjusting the eq.

Advice, opinions and recommendations qre greatly appreciated.

Thanks

[Billfitz]

They're nominal 4 inch drivers. There are aftermarket drivers that work better than stock, but only if you want to spend major bucks, and the improvement is barely measurable, let alone audible. As for the low end, that all comes from the under seat woofers, not the doors. There's room for improvement there, but only if you upgrade the amp. Here's one example: https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1730058

[a404freedom]

Originally Posted by Billfitz

They're nominal 4 inch drivers. There are aftermarket drivers that work better than stock, but only if you want to spend major bucks, and the improvement is barely measurable, let alone audible. As for the low end, that all comes from the under seat woofers, not the doors. There's room for improvement there, but only if you upgrade the amp. Here's one example: https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1730058

Very much appreciated for your response. In the past i did rebuild systems, at one point was driving 6 15" on a jl mono. Those days are gone lol.

That being said, are amps other than the amp you suggested available? Are there other plug and play options? I truthfully would prefer to spend $700 on my engine than my system. I just want to "clean up" the sound a bit.

[Billfitz]

I didn't recommend any amps, I just linked someone else's experience. Where plug and play for BMW is concerned there's very little out there, and none are at a bargain basement price.

[J555]

Originally Posted by a404freedom

Compared to the speakers I currently have, would it make sense to go different?

The tweeters and mids upgrade alone can make a huge improvement. Whether it makes sense or not is just a matter of how satisfied are you with the stock speakers and how much are you eventually willing to spend.

The market is full of aftermarket upgrades and most of them are even PnP - the same connectors, mounting holes and resistance. While they differ in sound, quality and cost, you can be sure that speakers from reputable brands as Audison, Eton, Focal, Gladen, Match, MTX, Rockford Fosgate, etc. do sound much better than the poor HK ones. Another option is retrofitting of higher-class speakers from other BMW-group models - all except some Mini are fully compatible, no matter if it's Bang&Olufsen, Bowers&Wilkins or even RR Bespoke ; you just need to select the proper speakers. In general, all these speakers will improve the clarity, the tweeters will be significantly more exact and the mids will cover wider frequency range with more mid-bass (something what's critically lacking in stock speakers). How much better, it depends on your choice of speakers and your ears

As you are interested mostly in bass, you need to consider upgrading the underseat woofers. There you have two choices, additional amplification or just replacing the woofers. While many people are successfully running the (4-ohm) aftermarket woofers with stock HK amp, the (never solved) mystery lies in fact, that HK woofers are 7-ohms and nobody knows the specs of the amp. At least in one case, the thermal protection switching off the amp due to overheating had been reported.

When considering the upgrade and its cost, the least I would suggest is upgrading the front door speakers (2 tweeters, 2 mids), the dash speakers (1 tweeter, 1 mid) and the (2) underseat woofers. Indeed, you can upgrade gradually and - as bass is your main interest - begin with the woofers; but count with the risk you'll find the stock speakers to be even worse after the woofer upgrade. Or you'll be satisfied, who knows

To "clean-up" the sound, in my opinion upgrading the mids is the most important.

[a404freedom]

Originally Posted by J555

The tweeters and mids upgrade alone can make a huge improvement. Whether it makes sense or not is just a matter of how satisfied are you with the stock speakers and how much are you eventually willing to spend.

The market is full of aftermarket upgrades and most of them are even PnP - the same connectors, mounting holes and resistance. While they differ in sound, quality and cost, you can be sure that speakers from reputable brands as Audison, Eton, Focal, Gladen, Match, MTX, Rockford Fosgate, etc. do sound much better than the poor HK ones. Another option is retrofitting of higher-class speakers from other BMW-group models - all except some Mini are fully compatible, no matter if it's Bang&Olufsen, Bowers&Wilkins or even RR Bespoke ; you just need to select the proper speakers. In general, all these speakers will improve the clarity, the tweeters will be significantly more exact and the mids will cover wider frequency range with more mid-bass (something what's critically lacking in stock speakers). How much better, it depends on your choice of speakers and your ears

As you are interested mostly in bass, you need to consider upgrading the underseat woofers. There you have two choices, additional amplification or just replacing the woofers. While many people are successfully running the (4-ohm) aftermarket woofers with stock HK amp, the (never solved) mystery lies in fact, that HK woofers are 7-ohms and nobody knows the specs of the amp. At least in one case, the thermal protection switching off the amp due to overheating had been reported.

When considering the upgrade and its cost, the least I would suggest is upgrading the front door speakers (2 tweeters, 2 mids), the dash speakers (1 tweeter, 1 mid) and the (2) underseat woofers. Indeed, you can upgrade gradually and - as bass is your main interest - begin with the woofers; but count with the risk you'll find the stock speakers to be even worse after the woofer upgrade. Or you'll be satisfied, who knows

To "clean-up" the sound, in my opinion upgrading the mids is the most important.

That was exactlyyyy what i was looking forblol. Respectfully, adding bass is actually the least important thing, its cleaning ip the mids and highs.

I understand replacing the factory amp will help very much...i just wanted to see if changing the mids and highs would theoretically be sn upgrade from the HK system i have without changing the amp?

[a404freedom]

Originally Posted by Billfitz

I didn't recommend any amps, I just linked someone else's experience. Where plug and play for BMW is concerned there's very little out there, and none are at a bargain basement price.

It was a thank you for pointing me to the match amp lol.

So basically, bring the car in and have them replace the speakers....? There would be no advantage to going aftermarket without changing the amp?

[Billfitz]

The weakest point of the system is the electronics, so that's where money is best spent. There's nothing wrong with the speakers. Harmon isn't exactly a newcomer to loudspeaker technology. They own JBL, Infinity, Revel, Mark Levinson, Bang and Olufson and many others.

I've seen lots of claims for aftermarket speakers being better. None yet have been accompanied by the measured data that acoustical engineers like myself use to make objective comparisons between different drivers. Advertising claims are not technical documents.

Johnung replaced his under seats with Earthquake SWS woofers, which will go both lower and louder than the stock woofers, but only when provided with adequate power. He did so with a separate amp for just the woofers, giving the Earthquakes enough power to function as well as possible. It also cleaned up the sound from the rest of his stock speakers. By putting the low frequency power load on the auxiliary amp, which accounts for some 70% of the total system power requirement, the stock H-K amp runs with far less distortion, making the stock in-door speakers sound better.

[J555]

Originally Posted by Billfitz

The weakest point of the system is the electronics, so that's where money is best spent. There's nothing wrong with the speakers.

Basically everything is wrong with the speakers. Both in terms of materials, manufacturing and sound quality, the F30 HK speakers are clearly below of the basic products the companies as Audison, Focal, Hertz or Rockford Fosgate produce.

Originally Posted by Billfitz

Harmon isn't exactly a newcomer to loudspeaker technology. They own JBL, Infinity, Revel, Mark Levinson, Bang and Olufson and many others.

Harman is a corporation that is owner by Samsung, the mother of corporations. Yes, based on the customer's request, companies within Samsung corporation can design and produce anything at the defined cost. And they do, from possible absolute high-end in oem automotive (as Revell in new Lincolns) to basic systems. The brand means nothing, you can find different systems branded as HK or AKG miraculously entering the automotive industry as badge requested by Cadillac. Unfortunately, the system in F30 is widely recognized as the worst within the given automotive class and generation.

Originally Posted by Billfitz

I've seen lots of claims for aftermarket speakers being better. None yet have been accompanied by the measured data that acoustical engineers like myself use to make objective comparisons between different drivers. Advertising claims are not technical documents.

Please perform your measurements, finally. No big deal to ask somebody with upgraded speakers or competitors as Audi A4/A5 with Bang&Olufsen and perform the measurement, I guess?

Originally Posted by Billfitz

Johnung replaced his under seats with Earthquake SWS woofers, which will go both lower and louder than the stock woofers, but only when provided with adequate power. He did so with a separate amp for just the woofers, giving the Earthquakes enough power to function as well as possible. It also cleaned up the sound from the rest of his stock speakers. By putting the low frequency power load on the auxiliary amp, which accounts for some 70% of the total system power requirement, the stock H-K amp runs with far less distortion, making the stock in-door speakers sound better.

Nothing against that, but so many different upgrades around. Have you listened to the resulting system and - most importantly for you - have you measured it? What is the result, then?

Saying the woofers accounts for 70% of the total system power requirement is ridiculous.

I am feeding my woofers from the HK amp and can tell you that:
- the amp has enough power to drive the woofers. In fact, the combination has huge reserves, as it can achieve bass and loudness nobody can bear,
- I upgraded the speakers and woofers separately and while your theory of reduced amp load and less distortion has indeed a good base, it cannot be recognized by my ear in real life at all,
- I would suggest you to perform a comparison (both subjective and measured) of different woofers. For instance, to me my woofers sound significantly better compared to separately amplified Earthquakes I have listened to. Indeed, the SWS produces tight bass, but they do not sound as good as some others to me and certainly do not blend well with the other speakers I have listened to,
- The Earthquakes mentioned by you all the time are not the Holy Grail of underseat woofers according to many. I would consider twice to recommend them in a such way, when several reputable retailers and installers in Europe already stopped recommending or even selling them, some mentioning high RMA rate, some:

Originally Posted by audiophile-incar.co.uk

We have auditioned every BMW specific fit subwoofer we can get our hands on and we truly believe the Audison Prima woofers are currently the best available. Come and hear them for yourself. The Audison Prima Woofers are an upgrade from the Earthquakes we traditionally installed.

[emrliquidlife]

Originally Posted by J555

Basically everything is wrong with the speakers. Both in terms of materials, manufacturing and sound quality, the F30 HK speakers are clearly below of the basic products the companies as Audison, Focal, Hertz or Rockford Fosgate produce.

Harman is a corporation that is owner by Samsung, the mother of corporations. Yes, based on the customer's request, companies within Samsung corporation can design and produce anything at the defined cost. And they do, from possible absolute high-end in oem automotive (as Revell in new Lincolns) to basic systems. The brand means nothing, you can find different systems branded as HK or AKG miraculously entering the automotive industry as badge requested by Cadillac. Unfortunately, the system in F30 is widely recognized as the worst within the given automotive class and generation.

Please perform your measurements, finally. No big deal to ask somebody with upgraded speakers or competitors as Audi A4/A5 with Bang&Olufsen and perform the measurement, I guess?

Nothing against that, but so many different upgrades around. Have you listened to the resulting system and - most importantly for you - have you measured it? What is the result, then?

Saying the woofers accounts for 70% of the total system power requirement is ridiculous.

I am feeding my woofers from the HK amp and can tell you that:
- the amp has enough power to drive the woofers. In fact, the combination has huge reserves, as it can achieve bass and loudness nobody can bear,
- I upgraded the speakers and woofers separately and while your theory of reduced amp load and less distortion has indeed a good base, it cannot be recognized by my ear in real life at all,
- I would suggest you to perform a comparison (both subjective and measured) of different woofers. For instance, to me my woofers sound significantly better compared to separately amplified Earthquakes I have listened to. Indeed, the SWS produces tight bass, but they do not sound as good as some others to me and certainly do not blend well with the other speakers I have listened to,
- The Earthquakes mentioned by you all the time are not the Holy Grail of underseat woofers according to many. I would consider twice to recommend them in a such way, when several reputable retailers and installers in Europe already stopped recommending or even selling them, some mentioning high RMA rate, some:

So tired of reading the lie, " don't do speakers until you do the amp." Do you have an experience that brought to this outcome?

True Car audio isn't about about the perfect arrivals. It's learning and trial and error. And I think speaker changes are an amazing first start.

[Billfitz]

Originally Posted by emrliquidlife

True Car audio isn't about about the perfect arrivals. It's learning and trial and error.

I did my learning. I designed my first speaker in 1969, have a Masters in Acoustical Engineering and own a loudspeaker design company. Not counting the designs I offer to the DIY set there are currently over a dozen loudspeakers that I designed on the market from various companies. As for trial and error, that method went the way of the Dodo forty years ago. Audio is a science, and the science always works, whether you understand it or not. And pardon me for not responding line by line to posts by those who don't understand the science. I have no inclination to waste a minute of my time on those who'd rather argue than learn.

[emrliquidlife]

Originally Posted by Billfitz

I did my learning. I designed my first speaker in 1969, have a Masters in Acoustical Engineering and own a loudspeaker design company. Not counting the designs I offer to the DIY set there are currently over a dozen loudspeakers that I designed on the market from various companies. As for trial and error, that method went the way of the Dodo forty years ago. Audio is a science, and the science always works, whether you understand it or not. And pardon me for not responding line by line to posts by those who don't understand the science. I have no inclination to waste a minute of my time on those who'd rather argue than learn.

Science doesn't account for the individual differences in ears.

No one asked for your CV.

Please don't respond.

[paul e]

Yes, this says it all....the guy with 32 posts tells the professional audio engineer with 9660 posts...and I’m being kind to not even look at the reputation count...to “please don’t respond”.

I’d take that advice. Arguing with the ignorant is like spitting in the wind.

[emrliquidlife]

Originally Posted by paul e

Yes, this says it all....the guy with 32 posts tells the professional audio engineer with 9660 posts...and I'm being kind to not even look at the reputation count...to "please don't respond".

I'd take that advice. Arguing with the ignorant is like spitting in the wind.

"As to what is thought of me, I'm indifferent."

Son, you really need to stop living your life according to to the internet. While you think post count and reputation points will add weight to the argument, I assure you it doesn't. Why are you in an automotive forum looking for audio intelligence?

Now, I'm new, really new to the internet. So new in fact, I discovered the internet yesterday, and audio the day before that. Feel better? Dump the insults, this isn't a contest.

My initial argument that you didn't address remains.

If the amplifier stays the same and you change speakers, can you hear a difference that will allow you to discern your preferred speaker?

[J555]

Originally Posted by emrliquidlife

So tired of reading the lie, " don't do speakers until you do the amp." Do you have an experience that brought to this outcome?

In my opinion, it all depends on the combination of all components. If we reduce this to the specific HK system in F3x, all I can tell from my experience is (all!) the speakers are not up to the amp. While the reasons can be many (including end-user option price, HW parts unification/sharing, etc.), upgrading the speakers can definitely improve the sound quality of the entire system to another level.

Originally Posted by paul e

Yes, this says it all....the guy with 32 posts tells the professional audio engineer with 9660 posts...and I’m being kind to not even look at the reputation count...to “please don’t respond”.

I’d take that advice. Arguing with the ignorant is like spitting in the wind.

No offense meant to anybody, but ask the professional audio engineer for his own experiences with HK system, HK speakers, upgrades of the HK system, real-world, or spec comparison of any HK component and its aftermarket upgrade. Ask, why professional audio engineer is using arguments as "Harmon isn't exactly a newcomer to loudspeaker technology." Ask, based on what audio engineer question the reputable audio producers or installers, who did hundreds of BMW's and can prove what they say on their own show cars. Ask, what is the sense of saying "I've seen lots of claims for aftermarket speakers being better. None yet have been accompanied by the measured data that acoustical engineers like myself use to make objective comparisons between different drivers. Advertising claims are not technical documents.", when the specs of HK components are not public (and if they would be, acoustical engineers would not trust them anyway... and most likely be right). Ask for... or not.

Personally, I did learn from people here tons of knowledge and that indeed includes Bill. I am very thankful for that, they helped me make my own opinions, no matter, what it is.

[emrliquidlife]

Originally Posted by J555

In my opinion, it all depends on the combination of all components. If we reduce this to the specific HK system in F3x, all I can tell from my experience is (all!) the speakers are not up to the amp. While the reasons can be many (including end-user option price, HW parts unification/sharing, etc.), upgrading the speakers can definitely improve the sound quality of the entire system to another level.

No offense meant to anybody, but ask the professional audio engineer for his own experiences with HK system, HK speakers, upgrades of the HK system, real-world, or spec comparison of any HK component and its aftermarket upgrade. Ask, why professional audio engineer is using arguments as "Harmon isn't exactly a newcomer to loudspeaker technology." Ask, based on what audio engineer question the reputable audio producers or installers, who did hundreds of BMW's and can prove what they say on their own show cars. Ask, what is the sense of saying "I've seen lots of claims for aftermarket speakers being better. None yet have been accompanied by the measured data that acoustical engineers like myself use to make objective comparisons between different drivers. Advertising claims are not technical documents.", when the specs of HK components are not public (and if they would be, acoustical engineers would not trust them anyway... and most likely be right). Ask for... or not.

Personally, I did learn from people here tons of knowledge and that indeed includes Bill. I am very thankful for that, they helped me make my own opinions, no matter, what it is.

Ummm excuse me, can YOU answer the question?