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      09-18-2020, 10:20 AM   #1
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If I buy one, it値l be for the track (vs. Porsche GT4)

If I buy the car it'll just be to track it, so weight and reliability are big concerns.


EDIT: this list of posts was ripped out of another conversation. Just a regular conversation about a new M3 in the M3 and then the Porsche fanboys that inexplicably plague these forums tell me blah blah blah about how Porsches are much better than BMWs for the track. I wasn't asking for people's opinions of BMW vs Porsche.

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      09-18-2020, 12:39 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
If I buy the car it'll just be to track it, so weight and reliability are big concerns.
Why would you buy a G80 just to track it? There are so many better options suited for track duty. The G80, just like any modern car is a street car first, meaning turning it into a track car doesn't make much sense. I'm sure if you have an unlimited budget then by all means, that would be different, but not in the reality that we live in.
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      09-18-2020, 12:47 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bumpinjeep View Post
Why would you buy a G80 just to track it? There are so many better options suited for track duty. The G80, just like any modern car is a street car first, meaning turning it into a track car doesn't make much sense. I'm sure if you have an unlimited budget then by all means, that would be different, but not in the reality that we live in.
Well I've done that with the E9X generation, the F8X generation and expect to do that with the G8X generation as well. With pretty good results mind you.

I don't see other options that are "much better suited for track duty" unless you have a trailer and tow rig.

Do you track often?
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      09-18-2020, 08:45 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
Well I've done that with the E9X generation, the F8X generation and expect to do that with the G8X generation as well. With pretty good results mind you.

I don't see other options that are "much better suited for track duty" unless you have a trailer and tow rig.

Do you track often?
See Porsche much better for track

The GT models in particular but even the non GT versions perform better on the track

Staying on topic though if I were in the market for one would likely be the awd or rwd (depending on weight) and be the comp model with the slushbox. Wish they still had the DCT
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      09-19-2020, 08:43 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by LSM View Post
See Porsche much better for track

The GT models in particular but even the non GT versions perform better on the track

Staying on topic though if I were in the market for one would likely be the awd or rwd (depending on weight) and be the comp model with the slushbox. Wish they still had the DCT
Yes, this is what all the Porsche people who get their doors blown off think.

And no one is driving a GT3 500 miles to go to the track, at least not in the real world
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      09-19-2020, 09:16 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
Yes, this is what all the Porsche people who get their doors blown off think.

And no one is driving a GT3 500 miles to go to the track, at least not in the real world
If you are only looking at lap times and competition then that is one thing, if you are looking for control and fun on the track and feeling 100% connected to a car with one of the greatest visceral experiences for under $100k then it is hard to beat a Porsche GT4.
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      09-19-2020, 09:34 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by ZGM3 View Post
If you are only looking at lap times and competition then that is one thing, if you are looking for control and fun on the track and feeling 100% connected to a car with one of the greatest visceral experiences for under $100k then it is hard to beat a Porsche GT4.
I've driven GT4s as a PCA instructor, no thank you, I'll keep my M car.
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      09-19-2020, 10:38 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
Yes, this is what all the Porsche people who get their doors blown off think.

And no one is driving a GT3 500 miles to go to the track, at least not in the real world
Doors blown off... funny every Porsche beats BMW look at ring times. your mighty M8 with underrated 617 Hp gets toasted by my only 450 HP C2S.... M3 CSL and M2 both slower than their Porsche counterparts

I've owned 50-60 BMW's and every M car you can imagine ... track stars they are not and each generation is becoming less and less sporty, numb steering, unsorted suspension and more weight. They're fast in a straight line though

And maybe you have to drive 500?!?! Miles to the track. Quite a trip, takes you 7 - 8 hours to get to the track. I don't know anyone who drives 7-8 hours to get to a track
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      09-19-2020, 10:45 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by LSM View Post
Doors blown off... funny every Porsche beats BMW look at ring times. your mighty M8 with underrated 617 Hp gets toasted by my only 450 HP C2S.... M3 CSL and M2 both slower than their Porsche counterparts

I've owned 50-60 BMW's and every M car you can imagine ... track stars they are not and each generation is becoming less and less sporty, numb steering, unsorted suspension and more weight. They're fast in a straight line though

And maybe you have to drive 500?!?! Miles to the track. Quite a trip, takes you 7 - 8 hours to get to the track. I don't know anyone who drives 7-8 hours to get to a track
You can tell from the comments who has zero clue of tracking and instead lives vicariously through ring times posted by pro drivers.

I remember being 7 and also talking about what my daddy and mommy could do.


The US is a big country, from CT to VIR or Mid Ohio is 8-10 hours

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      09-19-2020, 10:46 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
You can tell from the comments who has zero clue of tracking and instead lives vicariously through ring times posted by pro drivers.

I remember being 7 and also talking about what my daddy and mommy could do.
Sure buddy 7-8 hours drive to track in a 3800lb M3 go for it. Cheers/Best wishes.
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      09-19-2020, 09:43 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by LSM View Post
Doors blown off... funny every Porsche beats BMW look at ring times. your mighty M8 with underrated 617 Hp gets toasted by my only 450 HP C2S.... M3 CSL and M2 both slower than their Porsche counterparts

I've owned 50-60 BMW's and every M car you can imagine ... track stars they are not and each generation is becoming less and less sporty, numb steering, unsorted suspension and more weight. They're fast in a straight line though

And maybe you have to drive 500?!?! Miles to the track. Quite a trip, takes you 7 - 8 hours to get to the track. I don't know anyone who drives 7-8 hours to get to a track
As much as I hate the recent transition of M cars appealing to soccer moms and stoplight racers who can't drive a RWD without traction control or bother to learn how to properly drive a DCT, credit should be given where it deserves.

Prolonged track driving will tell you that:
1. M engines are much more reliable and less costly to run than Porsche F6 engines. Up to 991 engines all Flat-6 engines other than GT variants suffered from oil starvation destroying cylinder walls because of their design.
Flat engines just cannot handle high lateral G without dry sump system. M engines from E36 M3 3.2 Euro all have dual oil pickup which supplies oil in high lateral G conditions at all times.

2. Weight is a big problem, but weight distribution matters as well. The famous 50&50 weight distribution of M cars does not just mean front and rear, it also means left to right. This enables drivers to chase higher cornering speed (i.e. higher entry speed) than 40-60~ 30-70 weight distribution of 911s. Where 911s shine is actually straight line speed from the corner exit. 911 Non GT variants understeer going at same entry speed as F8x M3/4s so driving 911 is not a pleasant experience for track rats looking for a neutral balance.

3. Nurburgring times don't mean shit as track conditions differ and car setup is drastically different to get the maximum result out of a particular track. Just because 911s are more nurburgring focused does not mean it fares well on other tracks. M cars are consistently fast on all tracks.
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      09-19-2020, 10:08 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyrix1st View Post
As much as I hate the recent transition of M cars appealing to soccer moms and stoplight racers who can't drive a RWD without traction control or bother to learn how to properly drive, credit should be given where it deserves.

Prolonged track driving will tell you that:
1. M engines are much more reliable and less costly to run than Porsche F6 engines. Up to 991 engines all Flat-6 engines other than GT variants suffered from oil starvation destroying cylinder walls because of their design.
Flat engines just cannot handle high lateral G without dry sump system. M engines from E36 M3 3.2 Euro all have dual oil pickup which supplies oil in high lateral G conditions at all times.

2. Weight is a big problem, but weight distribution matters as well. The famous 50&50 weight distribution of M cars does not just mean front and rear, it also means left to right. This enables drivers to chase higher cornering speed (i.e. higher entry speed) than 40-60~ 30-70 weight distribution of 911s. Where 911s shine is actually straight line speed from the corner exit. 911 Non GT variants understeer going at same entry speed as F8x M3/4s so driving 911 is not a pleasant experience for track rats looking for a neutral balance.

3. Nurburgring times don't mean shit as track conditions differ and car setup is drastically different to get the maximum result out of a particular track. Just because 911s are more nurburgring focused does not mean it fares well on other tracks. M cars are consistently fast on all tracks.
Front engine rear wheel drive cars will never handle as well as a mid engined car. Cayman handles better than any M car

992 does not have the oil pickup engine issues and they weigh significantly less than M cars

Porsche's consistently run better than bmw's on most all tracks and I run better in Porsche's myself and it isn't close

Rings time don't mean shit but every manufacturer puts a ton of weight on it or they wouldn't bother testing it

My original post said Any Porsche GT car would be a superior track car to the new M3/M4 which either has an auto trans or manual and guaranteed to weigh 3800lbs min.

No mid engine car has 50/50 weight distribution. So the cayman, Ferrari's McClaren etc all mid engine don't have 50/50 weight distribution. I guess M's have a superior set to those cars too bc they don't have 50/50 weight distribution?

Lastly on weight distribution have you seen the weight distribution of M cars that are awd not 50/50 and not close to 50/50

The 911 def has the engine in the wrong place but it has incredible grip, steering and handling. Nothing in BMW's lineup feels close. RWS helps a ton as well

Back to my original rebuttal a Porsche would be a better track car than the new M3/M4

Not knocking the M3/M4 had an F82 M4 comp loved it and looking forward to new m3/M4 but I'm not optimistic about how it will drive. Owned an F90 M5 hated it, drove an M8 comp for a day didn't like it either. New M's are heavy fast and great GT cars but their steering is poor, suspension feels unsorted, and the driving thrill is gone

Hope the new M3/M4 are way more sport and way less big heavy GT that's got 10000 HP
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      09-19-2020, 10:41 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LSM View Post
Front engine rear wheel drive cars will never handle as well as a mid engined car. Cayman handles better than any M car

992 does not have the oil pickup engine issues and they weigh significantly less than M cars

Porsche's consistently run better than bmw's on most all tracks and I run better in Porsche's myself and it isn't close

Rings time don't mean shit but every manufacturer puts a ton of weight on it or they wouldn't bother testing it

My original post said Any Porsche GT car would be a superior track car to the new M3/M4 which either has an auto trans or manual and guaranteed to weigh 3800lbs min.

No mid engine car has 50/50 weight distribution. So the cayman, Ferrari's McClaren etc all mid engine don't have 50/50 weight distribution. I guess M's have a superior set to those cars too bc they don't have 50/50 weight distribution?

Lastly on weight distribution have you seen the weight distribution of M cars that are awd not 50/50 and not close to 50/50

The 911 def has the engine in the wrong place but it has incredible grip, steering and handling. Nothing in BMW's lineup feels close. RWS helps a ton as well

Back to my original rebuttal a Porsche would be a better track car than the new M3/M4

Not knocking the M3/M4 had an F82 M4 comp loved it and looking forward to new m3/M4 but I'm not optimistic about how it will drive. Owned an F90 M5 hated it, drove an M8 comp for a day didn't like it either. New M's are heavy fast and great GT cars but their steering is poor, suspension feels unsorted, and the driving thrill is gone

Hope the new M3/M4 are way more sport and way less big heavy GT that's got 10000 HP
I guess it really depends on what balance you are looking for in a car.

I have driven 718 Cayman S hard on tight roads and I did not like the handling characteristics on non air suspension to the point that I would never trade my E92 M3 for one. Transmission(PDK) is amazing but suspension is strangely harsh at low speed yet too wobbly at high lateral G situations. Given, E92 M3 V8 is virtually a front-midship layout as opposed to inline 6s that hang out over the front struts (a more conventional front engine layout) and sits lower to the ground being crossplane V8 so it naturally has better balance than what is offered now.

You say supercars don't have FR layout but F12 Berlinetta disagrees, so does every Aston Martin/Mercedes/Corvette up to the current generation. Supercars with over 600 bhp use midship layout because it provides them best rear traction off the get go and provide that exclusivity, less about racing pedigree. Yes, as bhp gets higher it is more logical to use mid engine layout but neither Ms nor 911s are at that level yet.

I should also mention that early midship layouts such as Lamborghini diablo and many 911s up to 997s suffered from nose lifting at high speeds and subsequent instability due to lighter front. It is not a stable design from the get go. Also the reason why 992s moved towards more midship layout vs. RR to provide more neutral balance.
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      09-20-2020, 02:50 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LSM View Post
Not knocking the M3/M4 had an F82 M4 comp loved it and looking forward to new m3/M4 but I'm not optimistic about how it will drive. Owned an F90 M5 hated it, drove an M8 comp for a day didn't like it either. New M's are heavy fast and great GT cars but their steering is poor, suspension feels unsorted, and the driving thrill is gone

Hope the new M3/M4 are way more sport and way less big heavy GT that's got 10000 HP
The F90 M5 steering was not acceptable? The downhill trend steering feel of the M3, F82 was acceptable?
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      09-20-2020, 02:23 PM   #15
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I love how a poll about which choice G8x we would be opting for devolved into the best Porsche vs. M debate these forums have seen in 5 years.
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      09-20-2020, 04:31 PM   #16
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The F90 M5 steering was not acceptable? The downhill trend steering feel of the M3, F82 was acceptable?
The steering of my Comp F80 is miles better than any of the 3 F90:s I have driven. Maybe its not only the steering but the F90 is soulless somehow and its sooo big. The last F90 I drove had even same tyres as my M3.
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      09-20-2020, 08:55 PM   #17
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The steering of my Comp F80 is miles better than any of the 3 F90:s I have driven. Maybe its not only the steering but the F90 is soulless somehow and its sooo big. The last F90 I drove had even same tyres as my M3.
Agree 1000%. That's the point I was making with the M5 and not liking it at all

For some it's great. In the end not at all what I was looking for.
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      09-22-2020, 03:00 PM   #18
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The F90 M5 steering was not acceptable? The downhill trend steering feel of the M3, F82 was acceptable?
Neither are good in my opinion, both are numb to the touch but the F90 is more synthetic in its weighting and feels less natural. BMW has a weird obsession that sportiness = heavier and not more communicative.
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      10-06-2020, 11:23 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
I've driven GT4s as a PCA instructor, no thank you, I'll keep my M car.
Oh, I was seriously considering the new Cayman GT4 as my next track toy. May I ask why you disliked the GT4 on track?
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      10-07-2020, 08:20 AM   #20
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Oh, I was seriously considering the new Cayman GT4 as my next track toy. May I ask why you disliked the GT4 on track?
Sorry - this discussion started in another thread, but it was pulling that thread off topic, so it was moved. So, you're missing some context.

When discussing cars and track worthiness, people tend to gravitate towards Ring times and excel sheet comparisons as well as pro driver reviews. This is, in my opinion, a mistake. The question isn't whether Randy Pobst is able to drive a specific car (GT4 or GT3 for example) faster than another car (M3 CS for example). Randy is a professional race driver. His experiences do not easily translate to joe six pack.

I consider myself a pretty accomplished track driver. 3 years of wheel to wheel in American Endurance Racing with trophies to back that up (sharing a seat with Randy), hundreds of track days, PCA instructor. yada yada yada. The GT4 I sampled was a full build: aeromotion extended aero and JRZ 3WR suspension set up at their shop, 450hp power package, etc. Gearing is all messed up on that car, it's crazy to have 2nd gear get to 83mph, it means in a slow enough turn you should be putting 1st in. Anyway, once you get some speed and it begins rotating it wants to continue rotating until it spins, basically the opposite behavior of a front engine/rear drive car. I managed a few 2:10 laps at WGI (a far cry from 2:04 in the CS or E90 with no aero and weighing 600lb more...) until third gear 'broke'. I brought it in and apparently 3rd gear is a known issue and covered under warranty, but I've tracked 180k mile E46s which still were on their original tranny and clutch. The GT4 has autorevmatch so it's not like there was a missed shift.

A few years later I had a track weekend with a buddy who raced Cup cars and currently drives a 991 GT3 RS that is modded to the moon and back. During the weekend there was someone else in a GT4 that was funny because they started getting ready to go out, I'd start getting ready as well and then the guy would stop and go sit down so we wouldn't coincide on track. I reminded my buddy that I had never seen a fast GT4 on track and he got upset like if I was insulting his mother or something. Anyway, later that weekend he had a chance to drive my car, did a few laps, came back in and said 'you were right, the GT4 is not even close'.
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      10-07-2020, 09:12 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SYT_Shadow View Post
When discussing cars and track worthiness, people tend to gravitate towards Ring times and excel sheet comparisons as well as pro driver reviews. This is, in my opinion, a mistake. The question isn't whether Randy Pobst is able to drive a specific car (GT4 or GT3 for example) faster than another car (M3 CS for example). Randy is a professional race driver. His experiences do not easily translate to joe six pack.

I consider myself a pretty accomplished track driver. 3 years of wheel to wheel in American Endurance Racing with trophies to back that up (sharing a seat with Randy), hundreds of track days, PCA instructor. yada yada yada. The GT4 I sampled was a full build: aeromotion extended aero and JRZ 3WR suspension set up at their shop, 450hp power package, etc. Gearing is all messed up on that car, it's crazy to have 2nd gear get to 83mph, it means in a slow enough turn you should be putting 1st in. Anyway, once you get some speed and it begins rotating it wants to continue rotating until it spins, basically the opposite behavior of a front engine/rear drive car. I managed a few 2:10 laps at WGI (a far cry from 2:04 in the CS or E90 with no aero and weighing 600lb more...) until third gear 'broke'. I brought it in and apparently 3rd gear is a known issue and covered under warranty, but I've tracked 180k mile E46s which still were on their original tranny and clutch. The GT4 has autorevmatch so it's not like there was a missed shift.

A few years later I had a track weekend with a buddy who raced Cup cars and currently drives a 991 GT3 RS that is modded to the moon and back. During the weekend there was someone else in a GT4 that was funny because they started getting ready to go out, I'd start getting ready as well and then the guy would stop and go sit down so we wouldn't coincide on track. I reminded my buddy that I had never seen a fast GT4 on track and he got upset like if I was insulting his mother or something. Anyway, later that weekend he had a chance to drive my car, did a few laps, came back in and said 'you were right, the GT4 is not even close'.
A stock power GT4 with an alignment and RE-71's can do a 2:10 at WGI. These are regular guy drivers, not pros. A mildly modded GT4 can do 2:07, regular DE driver. What I assume is a more significantly modded GT4 can do a 2:04, video doesn't list the mods. All videos on Youtube.

I'm sure you could of easily done better than a 2:10 given your skills, but you can't expect to do that in a couple of laps. Get out in one again for more time and you may change your mind. I've only had the GT4 out for one track day so far and it took at least a couple of sessions to get a feel for the cars balance. It has very different behavior to the M2/3. The long second gear is noticeable on the street but felt fine on the track to me, tracks with a lot of low speed corners may be different. I actually found the lack of midrange torque way more noticeable than the gearing, it feels a bit flat below 5K RPM. I've probably been spoiled by the S55 in that regard
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