[tl_boy]

Okay now im totally confused.

After so many posts and reading on this website, I had decided to purchase H&R sport springs to lower my standard suspension 325i. The reason for lowering was primarily based on the fact that I have 19" AR-1's, bu also I was hoping for at least a modest improvement in handling.

So, I called a local BMW shop, and spoke with the owner/boss over there. He actually seemed very knowledeable. They are also on the BMWCCA or whatever website for reccomended BMW shops.

In sum, here is what he told me:

Coilover systems, Koni shocks plus matching springs/bilstein shocks plus matching springs = good for track, not good for average driver who wants a bit better handling. He says it will be good handling, but rough, and he does not advise it for daily driving.

Lowering springs alone = not a good idea, the car will "pogo" and won't get a comortable ride.

So he actually reccomended to get BMW or UUC springs that match well with the existing BMW shocks I have. He gave me the example of the M3 stating that they are using BMW performance springs on there (not H&R or Eibach), and that those provide a 10mm or so drop. He is suggesting a 10mm to 15mm drop for me using either BMW or maybe he said even UUC springs that will match with my existing shocks. He says BMW "color codes" springs and certain colors match certain BMW shocks, and he would suggest getting me one of these colors that matches my shocks, and will lower it a bit.


Thoughts?

[HRC]

H&R's or any major spring brand and shocks have been around a long time, long before the e90. Plenty of e46 and down use them, they all can't be that stupid right?

I agree about using stock shocks for any aftermarket springs, but to say the car will "pogo" is a bit extreme. Sure, compared with my car, or any other car with both aftermarket springs and shocks, the car with only springs will have more body movement, but not to the point of bouncing up & down like a "pogo".

My car, rides almost like stock, pm shragon, he rode in my car and will tell you what I did.

Danny

[diesel007]

haha dealers are funny, using scare tactics to pressure you into buying their product.

My car does no pogo on H&R sport springs, however I would recommend saving up for coilovers. I am waiting on Tien.

[NaTuReB0Y]

funny thread.......dealer scam tactic.........

[tl_boy]

You guys sure its a dealer scam tactic? Its a tuner shop not a bmw dealer if thats what you meant.

He sounded pretty convincing. I'm sure he can order h&r springs, so i don't know why he would promote BMW OEM or UUC branded springs over H&R or Eibach. He actually told me that there is no reason to get rid of your stock shocks because the car is new. His contention was that it is more important to have a well matched spring to shock. So he suggested a spring with a nominal drop. He didn't try to sell me a coilover set or spring/shock combo, which would have resulted in greater profits for him.

[ctgazer]

i wouldnt call it a scare tactic, but the fact that he is the owner/boss over there indicates that he would have to in a way 'support' his own product, otherwise he would be shooting himself in the foot if he were to say that oem bmw shocks and struts are inferior products when compared to H&R and the likes...i guess he is trying to tell you that it is best to change struts along with springs, like when he said bmw color codes their stuff. if you were to change to h&r springs, then probably in the long run, like 3 or more years, it would benefit you to change both at the same time..just my $0.02

[tl_boy]

He said that changing to performance struts and shocks is going to give good handling, but a harsher ride. He doesn't reccomend it unless i go to the track he said.

He said that in Germany, BMW buyers have the option of many different suspensions. Here in the U.S., all we have is the sport package. He would like to get me a a set of either BMW OEM springs that are performance type but will allow me to use my existing shocks, OR he said maybe even UUC.

Since he is not a dealer, but an independent shop, I still can't see why he would purposely push OEM products on me. .

Originally Posted by ctgazer

i wouldnt call it a scare tactic, but the fact that he is the owner/boss over there indicates that he would have to in a way 'support' his own product, otherwise he would be shooting himself in the foot if he were to say that oem bmw shocks and struts are inferior products when compared to H&R and the likes...i guess he is trying to tell you that it is best to change struts along with springs, like when he said bmw color codes their stuff. if you were to change to h&r springs, then probably in the long run, like 3 or more years, it would benefit you to change both at the same time..just my $0.02

[KL2DC]

so what and how much are these springs that match the OEM BMW shocks and struts. Are these springs from the ZSP?

[BitStream]

I have some suspension experience from my first car - 96 Mustang GT.

I first put eibach lowering springs on .. I destroyed what little of a comfortable ride the car gave, but got almost no performance improvements. Looked great, but I was very unhappy right from the start.

I decided to change out to Bilstein shocks and that made a world of difference. Before I was feeling that pogo effect on the car, changing the shocks got rid of this.

In the end I ripped everything out and installed a full saleen race suspension which was worth EVERY SINGLE penny.

Kind of makes sense -- you are lowering the ride height of the car by changing the springs, but keeping the same shocks that were designed for your original ride height.

I would never change JUST the springs again.

My 2 cents ...

[tl_boy]

I'm not sure on the specifics. He's gonna work up a quote and probably call me tommorow.

Originally Posted by KL2DC

so what and how much are these springs that match the OEM BMW shocks and struts. Are these springs from the ZSP?

[HRC]

I feel bad for you TL_Boy, nobody should be misleading you like this, I hope someday you see the light. I wouldn't lie to you man...

Danny

[tl_boy]

lol. thats so dramatic. i don't think you're lying man, i just wanted clarifications. to be honest, i had eibach prokit on my prelude with stock shocks, and i felt if, nothing else, the lower center of gravity helped with handling. i felt i could turn faster at the least. it didn't bounce either. but with the bemer, i want it to be perfect. so wanted to run my info out on you guys.

let me see what he says, otherwise, i'll stick to the original game plan, and i'll order h&r springs. I probably won't do a coilover yet, but I can afford the $200 bucks for the springs.

thanks though

Originally Posted by HRC

I feel bad for you TL_Boy, nobody should be misleading you like this, I hope someday you see the light. I wouldn't lie to you man...

Danny

[ksfrogman]

The same "experts" at the BMW tuner shops advised F1 Motorsports to simply jiggle out the rear sway bar, not knowing that the rear subframe would have to be lowered to effectively remove and replace it. Unless those giving the advice have actually installed, ridden, and objectively tested an e90 with H&Rs and/or Eibachs, their opinions are simply that--opinions. Find someone who has these mods, and get a ride in their car. Better yet, if you can drive a car that has these mods, see if it feels like you're riding a pogo stick. Talk is cheap. See for yourself.

[tl_boy]

yeah, i agree with you on that. its tough though, this shop, as well as all the other shops have very limited experience with E90. And the people they have experience with, are some members here, like Hunter (who went to BHS in Houston).

Whats your experience with the rear sways? seemed you very pleased. Would you potentially reccomend someone to just get the rear sway bars (i noticed you said you did not feel the front's made much difference). I was thinking if i get rear sways installed at time of springs, maybe i can get a better deal.

Originally Posted by ksfrogman

The same "experts" at the BMW tuner shops advised F1 Motorsports to simply jiggle out the rear sway bar, not knowing that the rear subframe would have to be lowered to effectively remove and replace it. Unless those giving the advice have actually installed, ridden, and objectively tested an e90 with H&Rs and/or Eibachs, their opinions are simply that--opinions. Find someone who has these mods, and get a ride in their car. Better yet, if you can drive a car that has these mods, see if it feels like you're riding a pogo stick. Talk is cheap. See for yourself.

[lumbergh]

I see the point the guy is making. Shops tend to do things "correctly" or by the book because they are ultimately the ones who get complained to and if the ride does suck from going with H&R sports without changing shocks you could potentially complain, with merit, but if he goes by the book you have no real gripe.

I too am going back and forth with this. I think I am going to change my shocks too but I need to do some more research before I decide.

The GM dealer thought I was a retard for lowering my corvette,"why would you mess with the perfect engineering of a corvette", but after speaking with the shop forman who races corvettes he said "yeah they bring these cars out too high for the daily driver but the car is much better set up about a 1.5 inches lower"

It was funny because it is very easy to lower it with the stock parts, it's almost like they did that on purpose. The shop forman told me how to do it.

I wish the e90 was that easy. Do the shocks need to be done at the same time or is it cheaper to get the shocks/struts replaced later compared to the spring install price. I may try just the springs and see if it bothers me but if labor is expensive I will do both at the same time. I want the car slightly lower than a ZSP

[KL2DC]

tl_boy: keep us posted, let's hear what your tuner shop is offering/proposing...I am sure we are all curious to hear. What your guy is saying makes some sense but I wasn't aware of spring options in BMW's 'catalogue' of goodies and also the color coding system. I would like to know more. Thanks.

[Bulldog66]

Having just been through this myself I can say I felt no pogo effect with the Eibach springs, and MUCH better handling with very little body movement. NICE! And the ride was not really any harsher going over railroad tracks and such, very, very minor change in comfort on rough roads, but incredible improvement on smooth roads, plus it looks much better. That said, I put Eibachs on a 325xiT, that I was told would work fine by Tire rack. They did fit, and they did work, but just too much rear end sag for the wagon with all wheel drive. As it turned out my car was defective (another long story), so while I wait for my replacement (bummer) I looked into springs a little since now I had the opportunity to have them installed again no charge. Anyway, I went with acschnitzer for the following reasons.
1. They make springs for the Touring
2. They are designed for the BMW shocks
3. They are manufactured by Eibach
4. They provide the same drop as the Eibach Pro
5. These are the ones that are sold at BMW dealers in Germany (and elsewhere other than the US), so they are BMW approved.
6. They cost the same as Eibach springs

[ksfrogman]

Originally Posted by tl_boy

yeah, i agree with you on that. its tough though, this shop, as well as all the other shops have very limited experience with E90. And the people they have experience with, are some members here, like Hunter (who went to BHS in Houston).

Whats your experience with the rear sways? seemed you very pleased. Would you potentially reccomend someone to just get the rear sway bars (i noticed you said you did not feel the front's made much difference). I was thinking if i get rear sways installed at time of springs, maybe i can get a better deal.

Although I'm pleased with the appearance the H&R sport springs made, I was surprised the ride wasn't much stiffer. Eibachs (springs) made a huge difference on my '89 Supra. I believe that my ZSP e90 already had fairly stiff springs, so replacing them with H&R sports didn't seem much different in that department.

The front sway bar ALONE did seem to increase understeer (not a good thing), but this is what one would expect. The addition of the rear sway bar, which was much thicker than the stock one, made a lot of difference, but I'd be scared to just replace that without doing the front first. This is because you'd run the risk of having too much oversteer. In the years that I have autocrossed, I have never seen anyone change out just the rear bar.

Do the aftermarket sway bars completely eliminate body roll? No, but they seemed to make a world of difference when I first installed them. I don't believe one would want to completely eliminate roll, because then you'd be without an energy absorbing suspension; one advantage is that the bars would minimize undesired positive camber of the outer wheels in a turn. Even my mechanic mentioned he could feel a huge difference after the rear bar install and that he felt this was the way the 3-series should have been from the factory. My gut feeling is that the biggest difference in performance would be in slalom times when you are oscillating from left to right to left to right. There would be less body roll, less dramatic shifting of the body from side-to-side, quicker speeds and reduced times.

I annually entered my 1989 car in the Mirror Khana event in Kansas and have video footage of my car going through the slalom with stock sway bars, and one with aftermarket ones. The difference this made was obvious.

Having said all this, if you were to now ask me what mod would give the biggest difference in lap times at an autocross event, I'd have to vote for tires! Softer performance tires make a huge difference in cornering because they give your car more friction/adhesion with the road. Of course, most of us don't drive our cars exclusive on the track, so having tires that will last only a few thousand miles is not practical.

If anyone is in the los angeles area, it would be nice to find somewhere we can set up a small course and do some actual comparisons with a timer.

[ksfrogman]

Originally Posted by tl_boy

Okay now im totally confused.

After so many posts and reading on this website, I had decided to purchase H&R sport springs to lower my standard suspension 325i. The reason for lowering was primarily based on the fact that I have 19" AR-1's, bu also I was hoping for at least a modest improvement in handling.

So, I called a local BMW shop, and spoke with the owner/boss over there. He actually seemed very knowledeable. They are also on the BMWCCA or whatever website for reccomended BMW shops.

In sum, here is what he told me:

Coilover systems, Koni shocks plus matching springs/bilstein shocks plus matching springs = good for track, not good for average driver who wants a bit better handling. He says it will be good handling, but rough, and he does not advise it for daily driving.

Lowering springs alone = not a good idea, the car will "pogo" and won't get a comortable ride.

So he actually reccomended to get BMW or UUC springs that match well with the existing BMW shocks I have. He gave me the example of the M3 stating that they are using BMW performance springs on there (not H&R or Eibach), and that those provide a 10mm or so drop. He is suggesting a 10mm to 15mm drop for me using either BMW or maybe he said even UUC springs that will match with my existing shocks. He says BMW "color codes" springs and certain colors match certain BMW shocks, and he would suggest getting me one of these colors that matches my shocks, and will lower it a bit.


Thoughts?

One more thing...

I see what he's trying to say about "lowering springs." Whenever you go to stiffer springs (assuming that the aftermarket ones are of a stiffer rate), the frequency with which the car moves up and down will be increased. In other words, it will bounce more quickly than before. So the shocks need to do more work to absorb the up/down movement. However, many of the aftermarket springs are progressively wound, meaning that they will give you a softer ride when driving normally, but as you lean into a turn, the springs compress and increase stiffness "progressively." The more the load, the stiffer the spring rate. So stiffness is not linear.

As I mentioned above, the H&R sport springs didn't seem much stiffer than the stock ZSP ones. I'd be curious to see what others think.

[Carnage]

After much research I'm going a different route. I'm going with Vogtland springs and Koni FSD shocks. TC Kline has gone with this setup on one of their E90's and they have had no issues. Vogtland's are the only aftermarket springs they feel can be used with the FSD since the drop they give is only slighter lower than the BMW sport springs.

I agree with the general message of the post which is don't just replace springs, do the dampers as well. It just makes sense anyway since you're already have the car up and you're going need to do an alignment so just install the whole package and be done with it.

[tl_boy]

How much is the BMW Sport suspension drop? On Vogtlands website, it only shows 40mm (1.25 inches) drop for the E90. That is even more aggressive than the Eibach prokit. Why are you considering Vogtland?


http://cms.vogtland.com/ITmaxxDeluxe...041915&Via=Nav

I would like something a little lower than BMW sport suspension. I still intend on using stock shocks, at least for now.

Originally Posted by matsarge

After much research I'm going a different route. I'm going with Vogtland springs and Koni FSD shocks. TC Kline has gone with this setup on one of their E90's and they have had no issues. Vogtland's are the only aftermarket springs they feel can be used with the FSD since the drop they give is only slighter lower than the BMW sport springs.

I agree with the general message of the post which is don't just replace springs, do the dampers as well. It just makes sense anyway since you're already have the car up and you're going need to do an alignment so just install the whole package and be done with it.

[Carnage]

Originally Posted by tl_boy

How much is the BMW Sport suspension drop? On Vogtlands website, it only shows 40mm (1.25 inches) drop for the E90. That is even more aggressive than the Eibach prokit. Why are you considering Vogtland?


http://cms.vogtland.com/ITmaxxDeluxe...041915&Via=Nav

I would like something a little lower than BMW sport suspension. I still intend on using stock shocks, at least for now.

The BMW sport suspension drop is .6 in or 15-16mm. Vogtland has 2 options 25mm (.98 in) or 40mm (1.5 in.). I'm going with the 25mm option since that's as close to stock Sport as you can get in aftermarket right now as far as I can tell. Koni recommends that FSD's only be used with the stock springs whether it's sport or non-sport on the E90 so by using the 25mm option, I can use the FSD's and get a slightly lower drop (.3-.4 in) than if I used the BMW sport springs. Evidently, that increase in drop is within the tolerance of the FSD's but Eibach and H&R, etc (.6 in or more lower than BMW sport) fall outside that tolerance and will lead to premature wear and failure of the damper.