[kitchener]

My 15 335 xdrive (automatic) went into the shop last week with a dead amplifier (self-inflicted wound -- I "butt-dialed" my trunk release in a torrential rainstorm without knowing it). The wife didn't know it was covered under warranty thanks to my local shop, so I asked them about a tune (to be masked by the amplifier "cost"). They suggested a Turner Stage 1 tune and colder plugs to go with, and I asked them to throw on a Sprint Booster as well (I liked it on my twin-turbo 09).

The impulse move was very unlike me, as I research things to the 9s, normally, but the target of opportunity (aka alibi) the amp gave me led me to do it. As background, after trading in my N54 09 a year ago, I haven't been loving my 15 (I know it's an old theme here) -- it seemed like I went from a powerful four-door sports car to a car that just felt heavy with quick overtones.

So, while the shop had the car, I began reading up on it here, enough to convince me I want to go FBO sooner rather than later (IC + CP + DP), and picking it up at the shop over lunch today drove the point home. But, as Patton used to say, I don't like paying for the same real estate twice (tune). Something tells me that will be unavoidable to a degree, but the question is,

* how much would I be sacrificing in performance if I left the Stage 1 tune (will it need new files, regardless?) if I do the FBO upgrade?
* since I already have the Turner Stage 1 tune, is it less cost to upgrade it to Stage 2 because of the hardware that came with the Stage 1 kit (versus paying for a whole new kit)?

BTW, I should add my wrenching days are all but over -- maintaining my KTM dirt bikes is about all I like to do anymore -- I'm happy to write a check when it comes to our cars.

[thejeremyman9]

When you say turner tune, are you talking about this? https://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-5...ftware/?pdk=AQ

It's very uncommon; I have literally only seen one other person talk about it on the forums. The stage 3 results seemed comparable to stage 2+ MHD and stage 2 BM3, which are basically the standard tunes for F3x N55.

The sprint booster was probably a waste of money IMO.

Hindsight 20/20, what you should have done is just researched and purchased your IC+CP+DP depending on your budget/needs/goals, then purchased either BM3 or MHD, and called it a day.

Since now you might be somewhat committed to the turner, you should call your shop and figure out what their pricing is for going from stage 1 to 2/3. Its all part of the same device as far as i know for turner, so i imagine they shouldnt charge much at all to go to the higher stages once you have the supporting hardware. How much did they charge you for the stage 1?

You will still get some gains for IC+CP+DP (DP provides the direct HP/TQ gains, IC+CP are for reliability and consistent power) with a stage 1 tune, but really you the 2/2+/3 tune to take full advantage of the hardware mods.

You can read through my virtual dyno thread if you want to see how changing hardware and tune affects HP (approximately). https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1710794

[nickf30n55]

Originally Posted by kitchener

My 15 335 xdrive (automatic) went into the shop last week with a dead amplifier (self-inflicted wound -- I "butt-dialed" my trunk release in a torrential rainstorm without knowing it). The wife didn't know it was covered under warranty thanks to my local shop, so I asked them about a tune (to be masked by the amplifier "cost"). They suggested a Turner Stage 1 tune and colder plugs to go with, and I asked them to throw on a Sprint Booster as well (I liked it on my twin-turbo 09).

The impulse move was very unlike me, as I research things to the 9s, normally, but the target of opportunity (aka alibi) the amp gave me led me to do it. As background, after trading in my N54 09 a year ago, I haven't been loving my 15 (I know it's an old theme here) -- it seemed like I went from a powerful four-door sports car to a car that just felt heavy with quick overtones.

So, while the shop had the car, I began reading up on it here, enough to convince me I want to go FBO sooner rather than later (IC + CP + DP), and picking it up at the shop over lunch today drove the point home. But, as Patton used to say, I don't like paying for the same real estate twice (tune). Something tells me that will be unavoidable to a degree, but the question is, how much would I be sacrificing in performance if I left the Stage 1 tune (will it need new files, regardless?) if I do the FBO upgrade? Or, since I already have the Turner Stage 1 tune, is it less cost to upgrade it to Stage 2 because of the hardware that came with the Stage 1 kit?

BTW, I should add my wrenching days are all but over -- maintaining my KTM dirt bikes is about all I like to do anymore -- I'm happy to write a check when it comes to our cars.

Ok here is what you can do get bm3 do a full dme readout and they can make a flashable map for the tune you have just in case you want to keep it. MHD might be cheaper but depending on what you do, bm3 would be a better choice if you're you're planning to add power gradually or run an e mix later on because all those cost extra on mhd. With bm3 you get everything for 650 but remember you can easily sell it for 300-350 putting making it cost less than mhd right there. Regarding bolt ons look through the classifieds here, Facebook, offerup, Craigslist, eBay, ect. you can find great deals everywhere on used stuff. There is a guy selling an xhp license here right now which I highly recommend (my favourite mod) for 125 which is a steal

[kitchener]

Yes, that's the one (the Turner link you provided). It was $715.

[thejeremyman9]

Originally Posted by nickf30n55

Ok here is what you can do get bm3 do a full dme readout and they can make a flashable map for the tune you have just in case you want to keep it. MHD might be cheaper but depending on what you do, bm3 would be a better choice if you're you're planning to add power gradually or run an e mix later on because all those cost extra on mhd. With bm3 you get everything for 650 but remember you can easily sell it for 300-350 putting making it cost less than mhd right there. Regarding bolt ons look through the classifieds here, Facebook, offerup, Craigslist, eBay, ect. you can find great deals everywhere on used stuff. There is a guy selling an xhp license here right now which I highly recommend (my favourite mod) for 125 which is a steal

If hes already $715 into turner, its probably a waste of money to go to BM3 or MHD now, unless his shop offers a money back guarantee for 30 days or something.

Going used its an option... but i probably wouldn't do that. OP said hes willing to write a check for his car; i would probably just go new. Also, is XHP even transferrable? Not sure...

Originally Posted by kitchener

Yes, that's the one (the Turner link you provided). It was $715.

Damn... well, that's pretty much a rip off IMO, but it is what it is. Did the shop offer you any kind of money back guarantee? I would highly consider that route if so.

Here's my recommended path forward:

1. Research IC+CP. Pretty basic pieces of hardware, just pick a pair that suits your budget. VRSF, ER, AA, CTS turbo, FTP for CP, wagner for IC, etc etc. Get those ordered.

2. Research DP. Basically decided if you want catted or catless, and if you want catted, if you want to pay the premium to get a high quality one that will pass emissions. If budget permits, i would recommend AA or fabspeed catted DP.

3. Consider if you want to stick with turner or try and get a refund and do BM3 or MHD. Honestly they will probably all provide around the same level of power at the highest stage with FBO, but turner is very rare so much less data overall on that. At the same time, inquire about the cost to go to stage 3 now that you already paid a pretty hefty cost for stage 1. If they charge you anything more than like $50 (or free), they are probably ripping you off.

That's about it. If you want to go further, you can then consider doing thinks like turbo inlet, DV upgrade, etc etc, but not necessarily a part of "FBO". Also, don't get sold on an intake... its uncessary and can cause more issues than its worth. Get a dry drop-in filter like the AFE pro dry-s and consider MPPK airbox bottom if you want your intake to breathe a little more.

[nickf30n55]

Originally Posted by thejeremyman9

If hes already $715 into turner, its probably a waste of money to go to BM3 or MHD now, unless his shop offers a money back guarantee for 30 days or something.

Going used its an option... but i probably wouldn't do that. OP said hes willing to write a check for his car; i would probably just go new. Also, is XHP even transferrable? Not sure...

Damn... well, that's pretty much a rip off IMO, but it is what it is. Did the shop offer you any kind of money back guarantee? I would highly consider that route if so.

Here's my recommended path forward:

1. Research IC+CP. Pretty basic pieces of hardware, just pick a pair that suits your budget. VRSF, ER, AA, CTS turbo, FTP for CP, wagner for IC, etc etc. Get those ordered.

2. Research DP. Basically decided if you want catted or catless, and if you want catted, if you want to pay the premium to get a high quality one that will pass emissions. If budget permits, i would recommend AA or fabspeed catted DP.

3. Consider if you want to stick with turner or try and get a refund and do BM3 or MHD. Honestly they will probably all provide around the same level of power at the highest stage with FBO, but turner is very rare so much less data overall on that. At the same time, inquire about the cost to go to stage 3 now that you already paid a pretty hefty cost for stage 1. If they charge you anything more than like $50 (or free), they are probably ripping you off.

That's about it. If you want to go further, you can then consider doing thinks like turbo inlet, DV upgrade, etc etc, but not necessarily a part of "FBO". Also, don't get sold on an intake... its uncessary and can cause more issues than its worth. Get a dry drop-in filter like the AFE pro dry-s and consider MPPK airbox bottom if you want your intake to breathe a little more.

Originally Posted by thejeremyman9

If hes already $715 into turner, its probably a waste of money to go to BM3 or MHD now, unless his shop offers a money back guarantee for 30 days or something.

Going used its an option... but i probably wouldn't do that. OP said hes willing to write a check for his car; i would probably just go new. Also, is XHP even transferrable? Not sure...

Damn... well, that's pretty much a rip off IMO, but it is what it is. Did the shop offer you any kind of money back guarantee? I would highly consider that route if so.

Here's my recommended path forward:

1. Research IC+CP. Pretty basic pieces of hardware, just pick a pair that suits your budget. VRSF, ER, AA, CTS turbo, FTP for CP, wagner for IC, etc etc. Get those ordered.

2. Research DP. Basically decided if you want catted or catless, and if you want catted, if you want to pay the premium to get a high quality one that will pass emissions. If budget permits, i would recommend AA or fabspeed catted DP.

3. Consider if you want to stick with turner or try and get a refund and do BM3 or MHD. Honestly they will probably all provide around the same level of power at the highest stage with FBO, but turner is very rare so much less data overall on that. At the same time, inquire about the cost to go to stage 3 now that you already paid a pretty hefty cost for stage 1. If they charge you anything more than like $50 (or free), they are probably ripping you off.

That's about it. If you want to go further, you can then consider doing thinks like turbo inlet, DV upgrade, etc etc, but not necessarily a part of "FBO". Also, don't get sold on an intake... its uncessary and can cause more issues than its worth. Get a dry drop-in filter like the AFE pro dry-s and consider MPPK airbox bottom if you want your intake to breathe a little more.

No it's not he never activated it when he bought it so it should be good to buy and why not go used on dp and charge pipe ? Intercooler sure I can see your point but I got a charge pipe for 90 bucks by haggling with a seller amazing quality and a vrsf ceramic coated dp off eBay for 170 both work perfectly fine personally I'd ditch the Turner because there was already so many revisions to bm3 and mhd I'd say it's a better product overall

[thejeremyman9]

Originally Posted by nickf30n55

No it's not he never activated it when he bought it so it should be good to buy and why not go used on dp and charge pipe ? Intercooler sure I can see your point but I got a charge pipe for 90 bucks by haggling with a seller amazing quality and a vrsf ceramic coated dp off eBay for 170 both work perfectly fine personally I'd ditch the Turner because there was already so many revisions to bm3 and mhd I'd say it's a better product overall

Well for one, a shop might refuse to install used parts. Depends on his shop as he is not DIY as he said. I would also never buy a catted DP used, and from the vibe i get from his OP, he is probably not the kind of person to go catless. Again, just my 2c for OP's consideration.

[kitchener]

Originally Posted by thejeremyman9

Hindsight 20/20, what you should have done is just researched and purchased your IC+CP+DP depending on your budget/needs/goals, then purchased either BM3 or MHD, and called it a day.

Since now you might be somewhat committed to the turner, you should call your shop and figure out what their pricing is for going from stage 1 to 2/3. Its all part of the same device as far as i know for turner, so i imagine they shouldn't charge much at all to go to the higher stages once you have the supporting hardware. How much did they charge you for the stage 1?

You will still get some gains for IC+CP+DP (DP provides the direct HP/TQ gains, IC+CP are for reliability and consistent power) with a stage 1 tune, but really you the 2/2+/3 tune to take full advantage of the hardware mods.

You can read through my virtual dyno thread if you want to see how changing hardware and tune affects HP (approximately). https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1710794

I probably will reach out and see about a return/exchange, and at least where my shop is concerned, I have the advantage of my de$ire to add an IC, CP, and DP (they'd be doing it). Having already added the tune, this is more an academic question, but what is the strategy behind the bolt-ons first, then later, the tune?

When I get the DP, I plan to go catted -- I've crammed a lot of these discussions into the past few days so I'm somewhat familiar with the leading recommendations. In fact, I'm probably in sensory overload -- the AA model (considerably less), are they as "reliable" with state inspections as Fabspeed?

Btw, driving home this evening (picked up the car today), my engine light came on. Didn't expect that with a Stage 1 tune and not having touched anything else (besides the plugs). Seems to be stalling once in a while when at a standstill, as well (though warmed up).

[kitchener]

Originally Posted by thejeremyman9

Well for one, a shop might refuse to install used parts. Depends on his shop as he is not DIY as he said. I would also never buy a catted DP used, and from the vibe i get from his OP, he is probably not the kind of person to go catless. Again, just my 2c for OP's consideration.

Right -- I'm more in the fire-and-forget category. What's more (correct me if I'm wrong), outside of emissions concerns, a catless DP would be a lot louder, and I'd rather not be shouting "HERE I COME!!!". Regarding used versus new, while I'm a big advocate of buying late-model, pre-owned cars, I'm happy to get these sorts of things new -- they're not really bank breakers. And in this case, if I have any leverage at all on swapping out that Turner tune, it'll be because of the FBO upgrades.

[435gc]

I have th AA high flow catted. I have a little over 2k miles on it. I passed emissions (obd check) at about 1500 with no issue. No CEL or other issues thus far. The fitment was not quite spot on. It came with a dual hanger like oem, but only one bracket would line up on the tranny. If I had a torch handy maybe I could have bent it a bit to align perfectly. So I just used 1 bracket, seemed ok. Still pleased with the purchase.

[nickf30n55]

Originally Posted by kitchener

Right -- I'm more in the fire-and-forget category. What's more (correct me if I'm wrong), outside of emissions concerns, a catless DP would be a lot louder, and I'd rather not be shouting "HERE I COME!!!". Regarding used versus new, while I'm a big advocate of buying late-model, pre-owned cars, I'm happy to get these sorts of things new -- they're not really bank breakers. And in this case, if I have any leverage at all on swapping out that Turner tune, it'll be because of the FBO upgrades.

Let me recommend the ARM Motorsports intercooler since you're going to have a shop install it for you anyway it's a pita to install but it's worth it you got yourself a evolution racewerks intercooler for half the price

[kitchener]

Looks like there's a 90-day return policy with Turner -- thinking I'll have my guys pull it, and I'll look to take the advice of dropping in a IC/CP/DP, and the BM3 afterwards as was suggested above. What is the strategy of doing the FBO first, and the tune later? I assume it's to narrow down any issues if they occur (like a CEL)?

Please allow me to cheat a little and not research this question before I ask it lol (one of those ad nauseum answers, I bet) -- with the BM3 tune, if I began with Stage 1, what's involved moving to Stage 2 (cost, materials?)?

[Korvo]

When you buy the tune, you'll pay an initial $500 or so for one map. You'll then have the option to buy all other maps (like you get every map they have) for $50. Just buy all of them right off the bat if money isn't a problem.

Going from stage 1 to stage 2 will require the parts needed to run stage 2. This info is in the map description when you're looking at off the shelf tunes.

Starting with stage 1, you won't need any mods other than the tune. Obviously, having these upgrades with stage one will help, but it's not necessary.

Stage 2 will require an upgraded downpipe and intercooler.

The charge pipe on our cars is a very common thing to break, even stock. Before you load up stage 1, you'll want to upgrade it to a metal version.

[thejeremyman9]

Originally Posted by kitchener

I probably will reach out and see about a return/exchange, and at least where my shop is concerned, I have the advantage of my de$ire to add an IC, CP, and DP (they'd be doing it). Having already added the tune, this is more an academic question, but what is the strategy behind the bolt-ons first, then later, the tune?

When I get the DP, I plan to go catted -- I've crammed a lot of these discussions into the past few days so I'm somewhat familiar with the leading recommendations. In fact, I'm probably in sensory overload -- the AA model (considerably less), are they as "reliable" with state inspections as Fabspeed?

Btw, driving home this evening (picked up the car today), my engine light came on. Didn't expect that with a Stage 1 tune and not having touched anything else (besides the plugs). Seems to be stalling once in a while when at a standstill, as well (though warmed up).

In your case, since you are going to be having a shop do everything, you probably dont have the same amount of concern as if you were going to DIY everything and would therefore want to do the mods sequentially rather than all at once. Having said that, you probably want to do all the hardware mods first and give the car at least a quick test drive before flashing the tune, just so if any issues do arise, you know its from the hardware and not the tune.

Just to confirm, do you plan to have the shop do the flash tune or do you plan to do that yourself? With BM3 and MHD, flashing yourself is very easy, and gives you the flexibility to change tunes if you ever want or need to without going into the shop, and having the setup also allows you to datalog, pull CEL codes, etc. So i would recommend going that route if you feel comfortable with it. This is independent of having the shop install the hardware.

AA and fabspeed should both be fine for passing emissions check. AA is actually a little more 'legal' in the sense that it is 49 state EPA approved. But both pass the OBD check.

You should not have gotten a CEL from the tune nor plugs... you should have the shop check into that, because they might have messed something up, or it could be an independent issue. The stalling is definitely not good... You should have zero issues with a good tune, and the car should run/drive exactly like stock but with more power.

Originally Posted by pdegene

When you buy the tune, you'll pay an initial $500 or so for one map. You'll then have the option to buy all other maps (like you get every map they have) for $50. Just buy all of them right off the bat if money isn't a problem.

Going from stage 1 to stage 2 will require the parts needed to run stage 2. This info is in the map description when you're looking at off the shelf tunes.

Starting with stage 1, you won't need any mods other than the tune. Obviously, having these upgrades with stage one will help, but it's not necessary.

Stage 2 will require an upgraded downpipe and intercooler.

The charge pipe on our cars is a very common thing to break, even stock. Before you load up stage 1, you'll want to upgrade it to a metal version.

This is all correct, and the stages described here are for BM3.

It seems like everyone here is recommending BM3, but i am going to make your decision a little more complicated and say to get MHD. There are plenty of threads on both, but honestly i think MHD is better option for you. Yes, both tunes work perfectly fine, both make good power, both are very refined and you should not have any issues with the tune itself, but I could consider MHD more of a set it and forget it solution. BM3 tends to push the hardware a little further and, especially for someone who is not going to flash themself and want to datalog and confirm everything is working correctly and the car is hanlding the tune, IMO its worth it to get MHD. MHD tunes are slightly more conservative and more stock-like in terms of tuning strategy and operation. I am a MHD user myself and i have looked at hundreds if not 1000s of datalogs and read endlessly about both tuning platforms and IMO MHD is better suited for you based on everything i have read so far.

Also, if you do plan to tune yourself, the android based platform is extremely easy to use for flashing, datalogging, and reading codes, etc. For some reason BM3 users are always more vocal about telling other people to get BM3 than MHD users are about telling other people to get MHD lol, just a weird phenomonon. Anyways, that's my recommendation and you can do your own independent research. MHD pricing is very similar now, you just buy the flasher module and then the map pack. Get the cable or wifi adapter to connect to car, download the app, and flash away.

[kitchener]

Originally Posted by thejeremyman9

There are plenty of threads on both, but honestly i think MHD is better option for you. ...I could consider MHD more of a set it and forget it solution.

You have my number! Think I'll shift fire to MHD. Thanks. I'll give some thought to flash tuning it myself -- devil's advocate, if it's relatively easy, what might have gone wrong in my current (Turner) Stage 1 tune that I'm getting a CEL and stalls? A step that was accidentally skipped, or? I guess this is where the check-writing temptation lies -- instead of banging my head against the wall, my shop shop can bang theirs! But you're right -- I'm looking for a seamless transition from stock so I'm not constantly tweaking and troubleshooting.

[Korvo]

Yes, I forgot to mention that I was running BM3. You'll want to check out MHD's maps to make sure they don't recommend additional hardware parts for stage 1, but the prices are similar.

I'm considering the switch to MHD myself, actually for the very reasons that jeremy stated. I was having issues with the new maps and am still running an old revision because there are minor things that I don't appreciate about the new maps. The biggest issue I noticed, and the main reason why I'm still on an older revision, is because exhaust drone was introduced into sport mode.

BM3 allows you to sell your license after you sell your car. You can recover around $300 by selling and transferring the license to someone else. To my knowledge, MHD does not do this and I'm sure it's a huge selling point for BM3 and a reason why BM3 is suggested more often.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by thejeremyman9

When you say turner tune, are you talking about this? https://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-5...ftware/?pdk=AQ

It's very uncommon; I have literally only seen one other person talk about it on the forums. The stage 3 results seemed comparable to stage 2+ MHD and stage 2 BM3, which are basically the standard tunes for F3x N55.

The sprint booster was probably a waste of money IMO.

Hindsight 20/20, what you should have done is just researched and purchased your IC+CP+DP depending on your budget/needs/goals, then purchased either BM3 or MHD, and called it a day.

Since now you might be somewhat committed to the turner, you should call your shop and figure out what their pricing is for going from stage 1 to 2/3. Its all part of the same device as far as i know for turner, so i imagine they shouldnt charge much at all to go to the higher stages once you have the supporting hardware. How much did they charge you for the stage 1?

You will still get some gains for IC+CP+DP (DP provides the direct HP/TQ gains, IC+CP are for reliability and consistent power) with a stage 1 tune, but really you the 2/2+/3 tune to take full advantage of the hardware mods.

You can read through my virtual dyno thread if you want to see how changing hardware and tune affects HP (approximately). https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1710794

The turner tune appears to be stronger than MHD and BM3s baseline tunes, but not by much. I believe a member here got about 37xwhp which is near the limit for OTS tunes without Ethanol.

Typically BM3 tunes are weaker, about 365whp, and MHD about 10whp less than that.

With that said, We don’t know if the CEL is Tune related, you could have blown the charge pipe. You have to pull the code to find out

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by kitchener

You have my number! Think I'll shift fire to MHD. Thanks. I'll give some thought to flash tuning it myself -- devil's advocate, if it's relatively easy, what might have gone wrong in my current (Turner) Stage 1 tune that I'm getting a CEL and stalls? A step that was accidentally skipped, or? I guess this is where the check-writing temptation lies -- instead of banging my head against the wall, my shop shop can bang theirs! But you're right -- I'm looking for a seamless transition from stock so I'm not constantly tweaking and troubleshooting.

Spark plugs.

[kitchener]

They did do one-step colder plugs (and .020 gap) -- headed home last night, the oil pressure was up and the engine warmed up before I ever got on it, and even then that was minor, limited opportunities to get the tach up. Would it still run if it were the charging pipe?

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by kitchener

They did do one-step colder plugs (and .020 gap) -- headed home last night, the oil pressure was up and the engine warmed up before I ever got on it, and even then that was minor, limited opportunities to get the tach up. Would it still run if it were the charging pipe?

I would strongly suggest you pull the codes before you start ripping into the car. It could be something simple.

[thejeremyman9]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

I would strongly suggest you pull the codes before you start ripping into the car. It could be something simple.

+1. Also, it has been proven that you do not need colder plugs and smaller gap, even for FBO stage 2+ tune. Especially not for stage 1... Not saying that definitely the issue because some people run them, but 0.20 is pretty small for a stock turbo application. I assume is was the NGKs - do you have the plug part #?

[kitchener]

Yes — NGK 97056KT.