[JD6]

The effect (or otherwise) of Vitamin D has cropped up a few times in the main coronavirus thread. I have no expertise in this at all, but there does seem to be at least some evidence emerging from respected institutions that it can make a difference. Here is a study from Trinity College Dublin and Liverpool Uni published in the last week:

https://www.tcd.ie/news_events/artic...from-covid-19/

And here is a Telegraph article (which may be behind a paywall) which mentions research at Anglia Ruskin Uni:
__________________________________________________ ____
Sunlight could protect people against coronavirus due to the qualities of vitamin D, a new study has found.

Researchers compared Covid-19 mortality rates across Europe to vitamin D levels and discovered a strong correlation between higher death tolls and deficiencies in the micronutrient.

They believe vitamin D may help modulate the response of white blood cells to the virus, preventing them from releasing too many inflammatory cytokines – a problem known to afflict patients with severe forms of the disease...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...sting-vitamin/
__________________________________________________ ____

I have no intention of stirring up a hornet's nest here, as the issue seems quite contentious on these boards for some reason, but to a non-medical person these results look interesting, particularly as there seems to be very little downside in taking a cheap supplement.

[Sennen]

Originally Posted by JD6

The effect (or otherwise) of Vitamin D has cropped up a few times in the main coronavirus thread. I have no expertise in this at all, but there does seem to be at least some evidence emerging from respected institutions that it can make a difference. Here is a study from Trinity College Dublin and Liverpool Uni published in the last week:

https://www.tcd.ie/news_events/artic...from-covid-19/

And here is a Telegraph article (which may be behind a paywall) which mentions research at Anglia Ruskin Uni:
__________________________________________________ ____
Sunlight could protect people against coronavirus due to the qualities of vitamin D, a new study has found.

Researchers compared Covid-19 mortality rates across Europe to vitamin D levels and discovered a strong correlation between higher death tolls and deficiencies in the micronutrient.

They believe vitamin D may help modulate the response of white blood cells to the virus, preventing them from releasing too many inflammatory cytokines – a problem known to afflict patients with severe forms of the disease...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/202...sting-vitamin/
__________________________________________________ ____

I have no intention of stirring up a hornet's nest here, as the issue seems quite contentious on these boards for some reason, but to a non-medical person these results look interesting, particularly as there seems to be very little downside in taking a cheap supplement.

I bought some last week JD6 and have been popping one every day since. It might be futile but for the sake of a tenner a bottle it can't do any harm.

[dazzapb]

Looking forward to enjoying the lovely sunny weather as I am off work next week 26c that will do nicely too. Also a few beers and bbq too

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Half the country has a tan like they’ve been in Benidorm for a month right now. Maybe deaths in summer will drop even if infection doesn’t.

Not buying supplements, that are potentially ineffective, if sitting in the garden will do the same.

[HighlandPete]

Interesting topic and something the Scottish population has had advice on for several years.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/vi...ll-age-groups/

I've an open mind on the Vit D subject, but minded that the concerns over MS (multiple sclerosis) rates in Scotland, and the possible link to lack of natural Vit D production, does raise the issue that when 'autoimmune' is used in the same sentence as some Covid-19 complications, there is a possible link to the finer nuances of nutrition.

This is the current advice to Scottish health professionals, from the following publication. "Vitamin D information for health professionals in Scotland", available in pdf format.

[Sennen]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Interesting topic and something the Scottish population has had advice on for several years.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/vi...ll-age-groups/

I've an open mind on the Vit D subject, but minded that the concerns over MS (multiple sclerosis) rates in Scotland, and the possible link to lack of natural Vit D production, does raise the issue that when 'autoimmune' is used in the same sentence as some Covid-19 complications, there is a possible link to the finer nuances of nutrition.

This is the current advice to Scottish health professionals, from the following publication. "Vitamin D information for health professionals in Scotland", available in pdf format.

That is very interesting Pete I never knew that about MS and Scotland. A very dear friend of mine has been wheelchair bound for 20 years now, awful disease.

I have noticed that a large proportion of the poor people that are passing away and in ICU seem to be somewhat overweight/obese and I do wonder if this is due to them solely being overweight or is due to the lack of sufficient vitamins in an unhealthy diet. Of course I am not saying everyone that is overweight eats an unhealthy diet but a larger percentage would eat more highly calorific processed food.

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by Sennen

That is very interesting Pete I never knew that about MS and Scotland. A very dear friend of mine has been wheelchair bound for 20 years now, awful disease.

I have noticed that a large proportion of the poor people that are passing away and in ICU seem to be somewhat overweight/obese and I do wonder if this is due to them solely being overweight or is due to the lack of sufficient vitamins in an unhealthy diet. Of course I am not saying everyone that is overweight eats an unhealthy diet but a larger percentage would eat more highly calorific processed food.

Pros and cons for benefits of lockdown then. I’m pretty tanned and getting sun regularly, hopefully vitamin D levels are ok. But, I can’t walk through the kitchen without helping myself to some kind of sugary snack.

[Hooded]

I’ve done a lot of reading lately on the potential relationship between Blood serum 25(OH)D levels and covid-19 mortality.

There seems to be some evidence emerging that having optimum levels of above 30 ng/ml could greatly reduce the severity of symptoms from covid-19 compared with having much lower blood levels.
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers....act_id=3571484


https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0512134426.htm

This study shows that, counter intuitively, countries at lower latitude and typically sunny countries, such as Spain and Northern Italy, had low concentrations of vitamin D and high rates of vitamin D deficiency. These countries also experienced the highest infection and death rates in Europe.

The northern latitude countries of Norway, Finland and Sweden, have higher vitamin D levels despite less UVB sunlight exposure, because supplementation and fortification of foods is more common. These Nordic countries have lower COVID-19 infection and death rates. The correlation between low vitamin D levels and death from COVID-19 is statistically significant.



https://hospitalhealthcare.com/covid...y-in-covid-19/

It’s all about the vitamin D blood serum level being optimum and not deficient. I’m currently supplementing the upper safe limit of 4000iu of vitamin D3 in softgel form daily, shooting for a blood serum level of 35 ng/ml. I’ll half that dose after a month for maintenance. Vitamin D blood levels gradually build and drop depending on sun exposure, diet, supplements etc.

[Scoobyd]

I pop a vitamin D, vitamin C and zinc every morning. Bulk size from Costco! Every little helps. And it certainly can't harm.

[Hooded]

Originally Posted by Scoobyd

I pop a vitamin D, vitamin C and zinc every morning. Bulk size from Costco! Every little helps. And it certainly can't harm.

Don’t forget to take some Vitamin K2 (MK-7) if you high dose vitamin D .. keep the calcium in the right places.

One of vitamin D's main functions is to ensure adequate levels of calcium in your blood. Vitamin K promotes calcium accumulation in your bones, while reducing its accumulation in soft tissues such as blood vessels.

[Hooded]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Interesting topic and something the Scottish population has had advice on for several years.

https://www.gov.scot/publications/vi...ll-age-groups/

I've an open mind on the Vit D subject, but minded that the concerns over MS (multiple sclerosis) rates in Scotland, and the possible link to lack of natural Vit D production, does raise the issue that when 'autoimmune' is used in the same sentence as some Covid-19 complications, there is a possible link to the finer nuances of nutrition.

This is the current advice to Scottish health professionals, from the following publication. "Vitamin D information for health professionals in Scotland", available in pdf format.

The recommended dose of 400 IU (10ug) vitamin D per day will not be sufficient to raise serum 25(OH)D blood level to the optimum levels for covid-19 protection for most people.


A daily vitamin D intake of 1000–4000 IU, should be enough to ensure optimal blood levels in most people.

[Blacktemplar]

Originally Posted by Sennen

That is very interesting Pete I never knew that about MS and Scotland. A very dear friend of mine has been wheelchair bound for 20 years now, awful disease.

I have noticed that a large proportion of the poor people that are passing away and in ICU seem to be somewhat overweight/obese and I do wonder if this is due to them solely being overweight or is due to the lack of sufficient vitamins in an unhealthy diet. Of course I am not saying everyone that is overweight eats an unhealthy diet but a larger percentage would eat more highly calorific processed food.

My sister has MS so I’ve spent a fair bit of time looking into it. In very broad terms, it’s much more prevalent in populations in northern latitudes - Scandinavia, Scotland, Iceland and North America. There is possibly also a genetic link as people with red or ginger hair also seem to be disproportionately impacted. New Zealand is an interesting one - very southern, and a high proportion of Scottish/Irish ancestry. I think there’s also a link to SAD but can’t recall where I read that. We take VitD supplements from October through to April and sometimes later if the weather is poor.

[gangzoom]

Originally Posted by JD6

I have no intention of stirring up a hornet's nest here, as the issue seems quite contentious on these boards for some reason, but to a non-medical person these results look interesting, particularly as there seems to be very little downside in taking a cheap supplement.

Its along the same line of 'premium' Shell branded petrol been better for your car than supermarket fuels, these cheap supplements is pocketing some companies millions of $$$.

The whole Vit D supplement is one of the biggest medical cons of the last decade, it's been touted as the cure for everything from cancer to heart disease with not a single peice of proper research showing it's better than placebo, but people seem happy to part with money for placebo effect so why not?

[gangzoom]

Anyone seriously interested in trial data, this is the largest placebo controlled randomised control trial on Vit D supplementation. First results were published earlier this year and will be out in full next year.

Hopefully when its fully published it'll put a end to the quack medicine of Vit D supplementation as a cure/treatment for anything but profit margins of certain companies.

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/results/NCT01169259

[JustChris]

Got me plenty today ☀️

Feel immune for a weekend

[Scoobyd]

Originally Posted by Hooded

Don't forget to take some Vitamin K2 (MK-7) if you high dose vitamin D .. keep the calcium in the right places.

One of vitamin D's main functions is to ensure adequate levels of calcium in your blood. Vitamin K promotes calcium accumulation in your bones, while reducing its accumulation in soft tissues such as blood vessels.

Thanks, noted. The ones I take are 2000 IU so not sure that's a high enough dose to worry about the calcium issue?

[Hooded]

Originally Posted by Scoobyd

Thanks, noted. The ones I take are 2000 IU so not sure that's a high enough dose to worry about the calcium issue?

Generally anything higher than 2000IU per day long term I would add some K to the daily stack as a precaution.

That dosage would not get most people to very high 25(OH)D where calcium in the arteries etc would become a potential issue.

Something to consider with dosage is where you want your 25(OH)D levels to be.

Anything below 25(OH)D 20ng/ml is considered deficient and some data that’s now coming out seems to suggest people below this level have the highest mortality rates from covid-19. Supplementing 400-800IU per day would get most people above this deficient level.

Data appears to suggests that Having 25(OH)D levels of at least 30ng/ml is optimum for protection from covid-19. Meaning much lower mortality rates than deficient levels and much more likely to have mild symptoms or be asymptomatic at this higher level. Note: To reach and maintain a level of 30ng/ml or above most people in the northern hemisphere would need to supplement between 1000 and 4000IU per day depending on sun exposure and diet etc.

Below shows the all cause mortality ratio depending on serum 25(OH)D levels. It shows the optimum level for the lowest all cause mortality to be around 35ng/ml. Many people would require more than 2000IU of vitamin D per day to reach this level.

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by gangzoom

Anyone seriously interested in trial data, this is the largest placebo controlled randomised control trial on Vit D supplementation. First results were published earlier this year and will be out in full next year.

Hopefully when its fully published it'll put a end to the quack medicine of Vit D supplementation as a cure/treatment for anything but profit margins of certain companies.

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/results/NCT01169259

I love how people carry on their conversations about dose etc and just blank the post by a medic as if it never existed.

[Hooded]

Originally Posted by Goneinsixtyseconds

I love how people carry on their conversations about dose etc and just blank the post by a medic as if it never existed.

That’s Because his argument has Already been countered on the other thread with links providing evidence to the contrary. Benefits from vitamin D supplementation is a long standing ongoing debate generally and I’m not going to keep going round in circles with someone who won’t acknowledge anything that goes against his own opinion (see page 11 of the main coronavirus topic).

Personally I’m not arguing for supplements, I’m arguing for lowering risk from covid-19 by increasing serum 25(OH)D blood levels, which many experts around the world are currently acknowledging data seems to point for.
Most people won’t get to the optimum 25(OH)D levels without supplements though unfortunately.

Note: A being a medic does not necessarily mean you are an expert on optimum 25(OH)D blood levels for all cause mortality or covid-19 mortality. My own brother is a consultant within the NHS and doesn’t claim to be an expert on this subject.

[gangzoom]

Originally Posted by Hooded

That’s Because his argument has Already been countered on the other thread with links providing evidence to the contrary. Benefits from vitamin D supplementation is a long standing ongoing debate generally

There is a reason in medicine we grade research papers according to quality. There is actually not much 'debate' on this subject.

The top quality evidence of Vit D supplementation is all very clear, when you compare Vit D supplementation to placebo in a randomised control trial it shows no benefit. You can link to 1000 articles saying otherwise but one good randomised control trumps them all. Most practices in medicine is defined by just one or two height quality 'land mark' randomised placebo controlled trials, not by hundreds so smaller less well designed/carried out studies.

Ask your brother he will be able to explain, show him the link I posted and he can tell you what the findings are.

Time and time again in the medical field placebo controlled controlled trials have proven all kinds of things wrong, and that's why they are used to inform clinical practice.

I've never seen any randomised control trial data which shows Vit D is better than placebo in any setting. All the studies you are linking to and reading is pointless when the top quality data is so conclusive.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by gangzoom

I've never seen any randomised control trial data which shows Vit D is better than placebo in any setting. All the studies you are linking to and reading is pointless when the top quality data is so conclusive.

So are you saying the Scottish medical profession, (your peers), and the Scottish government with their official recommendation, have got it all wrong? Using your words, a con and quack medicine?

If so, no wonder folks do research for themselves.

[Hooded]

Originally Posted by gangzoom

I've never seen any randomised control trial data which shows Vit D is better than placebo in any setting. All the studies you are linking to and reading is pointless when the top quality data is so conclusive.

Theres one on page 11 of the main coronavirus thread but as always you won’t accept anything that goes against your own opinion

At the end of the day a lot of medical experts around the world are now claiming data is beginning to emerge to show that having low serum 25(OH)D blood levels greatly increases risk of severity from infection of covid-19 and indeed mortality rates. If you want to ignore this that is up to you, but for the sake of £15 for a years supply of high dose vitamin D3 I personally intend to get my 25(OH)D blood level into what is believed to be the optimum range for protection

Don’t forget quite a high percentage of people living in the northern hemisphere are classed as vitamin D deficient (serum 25(OH)D below 20ng/ml), and don’t even know it, regardless of what ‘some’ studies show regarding supplements.