[HighlandPete]

Following the deviation in the other topic on testing Lorcan's demo car....

Yes, what's your ideal suspension?

What do you want from a suspension? How do you make the judgement?

How do you rate comfort, handling, body frequencies. etc.?

[fuzzybunny]

Not for the purists I know but I like my standard xDrive suspension. Rides the bumps and grotty roads down here in Somerset really nicely. My ideal car is a convertible with a comfy ride but goes like stink when you want it to! 0-62 in around 5 secs suits me just fine! The added safety of xDrive is a bonus. And comfy suspension means I get out feeling refreshed after a long journey. I would prefer 50mpg as well but that ain't never gonna happen!

[Rudz]

precise handling (not wallowy), no body roll, firm ride (not harsh), Merc E class like on bad roads (good damping capabilities)

It should give me confidence as I pull in/out of roundabouts and chuck it round corners

Of course, should offer good stance as well...

[Techno 9000]

My perfect suspension would ride the small imperfections and potholes in the road surface without transmitting them to the body shell. It would keep the body stable through corners, and not wallow nor lurch through changes of direction.

[TodmordenLad]

Originally Posted by Techno 9000

My perfect suspension would ride the small imperfections and potholes in the road surface without transmitting them to the body shell. It would keep the body stable through corners, and not wallow nor lurch through changes of direction.

+1
And come as standard, passive suspension on the car, without having to spend lots of extra ££

[SkyJawa]

Originally Posted by fuzzybunny

Not for the purists I know but I like my standard xDrive suspension. Rides the bumps and grotty roads down here in Somerset really nicely. My ideal car is a convertible with a comfy ride but goes like stink when you want it to! 0-62 in around 5 secs suits me just fine! The added safety of xDrive is a bonus. And comfy suspension means I get out feeling refreshed after a long journey. I would prefer 50mpg as well but that ain't never gonna happen!

Yep! One of the few that don’t mind it either, been much better pain wise since getting my 335d.

[teaston]

The M40d suspension is very very good, handles as well as you need a road car to but also soaks up road imperfections extremely well, and is high enough to bump up verges and large kerbs, and also can wade in half a metre of water! So it’s near perfect for a road car.

But there is something I can’t help being jealous of, and that’s the air suspension on the X5, Range Rovers etc., just seems like it would be incredible to lower the suspension for handling and looks, but have the option to jack it right up for off roading or floods!

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Techno 9000

My perfect suspension would ride the small imperfections and potholes in the road surface without transmitting them to the body shell. It would keep the body stable through corners, and not wallow nor lurch through changes of direction.

Guess we need tyres with sensible side walls and much lighter cars which don't require such firm suspension to control the body.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by TodmordenLad

+1
And come as standard, passive suspension on the car, without having to spend lots of extra ££

As my comment above... Plus, as we can view tyres as the number-one ride control component, seems we will find it hard to get all we want from a simple passive suspension these days.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by teaston

The M40d suspension is very very good, handles as well as you need a road car to but also soaks up road imperfections extremely well, and is high enough to bump up verges and large kerbs, and also can wade in half a metre of water! So it’s near perfect for a road car.

But there is something I can’t help being jealous of, and that’s the air suspension on the X5, Range Rovers etc., just seems like it would be incredible to lower the suspension for handling and looks, but have the option to jack it right up for off roading or floods!

I thought with tractors you had the suspension fitted into the seat.

X5 with air suspension next time.

[teaston]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

I thought with tractors you had the suspension fitted into the seat.

X5 with air suspension next time.

Haha, I guess it will take a while for old perceptions of SUV suspension to be forgotten!

X5 is just too big for the UK now.

[Watsey]

Pete, trying to stay on topic with the questions which you raise :

#1 Control : this doesn't necessarily mean firm, although I prefer firm to soft (irrespective of damping). Minimal body roll.

#2 Balance : A good blend of ability across a wide range of primary and secondary inputs. I've driven the F30 on ACS (GTSussex 335D) and he definitely had it set very firm, but to me it felt a little one-dimensional but which I mean that the primary and secondary inputs seemed to be damped equally firmly. I find the Ohlins Road & Track Dual Flow valves to be very good here - they take the edge of nadgety secondary imperfections but also absorb big primary inputs very well - the car 'lands' in the dips or after crests very nicely indeed.There's movement but it never hits the bump stops. Very important that springs and dampers are well matched so as to work in harmony.

#4 Adjustment : Within certain limits, as per Lorcan's point in the other thread, there's no point having a complete mismatch between springs and dampers, but some damping adjustment is essential to me. There's a very useful difference in ride characteristics as the degree of damping is changed, especially when I take the car on track (perhaps 2-3 only times each year, but the increased damping resistance is very useful.

#5 Bushing. geometry and stance : A full geo setup (F&R camber; F caster; R thrust angle), corner-weighting (balance) and poly bushes (removing steering slop) makes a further very useful and noticeable improvement. One of the nicest additions were the SuperPro poly bushes in the front arms which has completely transformed steering inputs and precision. Having the 'right/tight' tyre/arch clearance adds to the look of the car.

These aren't necessarily in order of preference, but they're my comprehensive Top 5.

The big debate, of course, is that suspension is massively subjective. Some look for purely OEM no-frills, some for OEM with gadgets, and others will take the risk/enjoyment of going off-piste. Personally, as I've said many times (!) unless it was from a top tier 'got it right first time' manufacturer, my experience of the huge improvements that can be made with the F3X is such that I'd never have another with stock suspension.

My BMWs of old were far better (out of the bag) than the current crop. Hydraulic power steering and much better resolved OEM passive suspension. You could really have a blast in the E46s and I could hustle the 320D just as confidently as the 330D - both rode on Michelin PS2s. They instilled real driver confidence, far beyond OEM E9s and F3s.

[Soul_Glo]

So what was 3? Or 4 points only? ^

[Soul_Glo]

Putting the anti roll bar from the M140i on the back of the F32 really helped me. It reduced that back stepping out feeling when driving slightly spirited or taking a sweeping sharp corner.

[RobUK]

Simple - something that makes me feel comfortable and safe

[SilverGrey]

I like the adaptive suspension on my car. relaxed and comfortable and ride lumps and bumps well in 'Comfort' mode. Fun in 'Sports' mode and when that all gets a bit too much, switch back to 'Comfort'

[Watsey]

Originally Posted by Chelsea_Tractor

So what was 3? Or 4 points only? ^

Well spotted Looks like 4 points.

[TodmordenLad]

Originally Posted by SilverGrey

I like the adaptive suspension on my car. relaxed and comfortable and ride lumps and bumps well in 'Comfort' mode. Fun in 'Sports' mode and when that all gets a bit too much, switch back to 'Comfort'

Best affordable compromise if you're running 19" rft's, IMO and don't want to spend £000's on aftermarket suspension plus go flats.
Have had AS in my last three cars

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Watsey

..The big debate, of course, is that suspension is massively subjective. Some look for purely OEM no-frills, some for OEM with gadgets, and others will take the risk/enjoyment of going off-piste. Personally, as I've said many times (!) unless it was from a top tier 'got it right first time' manufacturer, my experience of the huge improvements that can be made with the F3X is such that I'd never have another with stock suspension.

My BMWs of old were far better (out of the bag) than the current crop. Hydraulic power steering and much better resolved OEM passive suspension. You could really have a blast in the E46s and I could hustle the 320D just as confidently as the 330D - both rode on Michelin PS2s. They instilled real driver confidence, far beyond OEM E9s and F3s.

Good points highlighted, particularly your preferences. Understand why you went for the Ohlins kit, widen the working envelope as you comment on.

The bigger debate, is so subjective including the human 'sensitivities' element. I personally like a firm ride, but don't like vehicles where the natural running frequencies are getting too high, becomes uncomfortable through my body. That limits the suspension design/setup for me. In other words, 'my compromises' are different to someone who is not sensitive to the higher frequencies.

On the OEM suspensions, I don't remember having the same criticisms as today, when driving an E28 or E30 on stock setups. Both an E28 528i or E30 323i driving roads like across Salisbury Plain were a blast. No recall of ever thinking spring rates or damping needed improving. Whether I'd feel the same today, I'm not sure, compared to the cars we now have.

I know with my E39 on M-tech suspension, low speed ride quality was not perfect, particularly as road quality deteriorated, but everything else was fine. Better with a bit of speed, where it hunkered down and was sure footed, also showed the capabilities of the chassis.

Personally I feel BMW is responding to the criticisms of each generation's customers, (the too firm, too soft, type of comments) but the compromises required to satisfy the majority doesn't always work too well. Particularly as there are cost restraints on the hardware.

Trying to put it in perspective, I do think we are a pretty critical bunch of drivers, knowing there are better performing suspensions out there and more to our personal taste. Just ride in more mundane cars, we soon realise most drivers put up with a lot of deficiencies.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by SilverGrey

I like the adaptive suspension on my car. relaxed and comfortable and ride lumps and bumps well in 'Comfort' mode. Fun in 'Sports' mode and when that all gets a bit too much, switch back to 'Comfort'

I don't think you are alone in liking the adaptive suspension. The ability to change the suspension to suit the road, or how you want to drive, on a toggle, is the simplest way to widen the range of use.

It is why I wanted adaptive in my 5-series. For me, it is the best OEM "off the peg" setup I could get. No regrets either, I still feel it is the best I could have chosen, (including wheel sizes), for how I use my car.

[Grant_7]

I have adaptive on my F31, and like the ability to change the damping parameters at the flick of a switch. But it's in no way a better solution than a properly sorted passive setup.

And by 'properly sorted', I don't mean changing springs and adding a thicker anti-roll bar to make it handle 'better'. I would well imagine such changes would make the compromise far worse. Certainly when I disconnected the rear ARB on my Caterham it gave a dramatic improvement to the way the car went down the road.

As Pete says above, there are so many parameters to a car's dynamic abilities, that it's impossible to create a perfect car for everybody. However I will say in my experience that high quality dampers - those that are very rarely fitted to production cars - make a very large impact to dynamic performance in terms of body control and ride.

Manufacturers really *really* skimp on dampers compared to what can be achieved. However there are exceptions in my experience. Firstly Porsche do tend to spend more on dampers, which can be felt driving things like 911s, Cayman GT4 or even a Macan, which seems to manage better body control than my 340i but also rides better too.

However the real eye-opener for me was a ride in a Golf Clubsport S. This was the limited edition car (150 examples in the UK) that has trick (relatively) dampers. The body control was far superior to that of my 340i in Sport mode (adaptive dampers) yes it also rode better than my car in Comfort. And this is a passive setup. It really proved what can be done with better damping.

Taking things to the extreme, I hear that damping ability of things like Penske etc shocks developed for rally cars is said to be out-of-this-world amazing

[Soul_Glo]

I don't think I could drive another BMW without adaptive. It's a must have for me.