[g9icy]

...today with @Lorcan at MP-UK/Awesome nr. Manchester.

What a massive difference!

Before today I had no frame of reference, only having experienced stock suspension on all my cars, so hearing the hype around the AC Schnitzer suspension package left me wondering what the differences really were.

Well now I know, with a massive thanks to Lorcan, and John at Awesome.

The 335d touring I drove today felt significantly more planted and handled bumps in the road without any "crashiness" or uncomfortable feelings at all. The car felt stable and confident. I felt like I could 'feel' the surface of the road, though I'm not sure if that's due to the MP4S's or the suspension.

With regards to feeling the road surface more, I felt it more through the back wheels than the front, if that makes any sense. I also had more confidence in the car overall.

For comparison on the drive home, over the same roads in my stock 435d, the car would sort of "wobble" after bumps and some deeper ones would cause a crashy feeling, almost like the car's bottomed out. The car feels "floaty". That's the best way I can describe how mine feels in comparison, even in sport as mine has adaptive.

This has sort of settled my doubts about keeping the car as well, as I was considering swapping it once my VT period is up, but no... I think there's still fun to be had with this one. Shame it doesn't come out of the factory feeling that good!

So thanks again to those responsible, and I hope this post helps in some way for those who are on the fence about the swap themselves.

-g9icy

[Tengocity]

The problem with driving cars with properly set up suspension is that once you've felt how good it can be, there's no going back... unless you sort it you'll always know it's letting the car down!

That's 3 cars in a row now I've had to go aftermarket for the suspension... and when I drive the 330e, which is completely standard, I get the reminder of how crap it is.

So will you be fitting a set of Lorcan's dampers to yours?

[JustChris]

How do BMW get it so wrong with OEM...its frankly bizarre?! Great news for ACS but just weird considering the amount of testing BMW do.

Good write up OP.

[Tengocity]

Originally Posted by JustChris

How do BMW get it so wrong with OEM...its frankly bizarre?! Great news for ACS but just weird considering the amount of testing BMW do.

Good write up OP.

I'd say because they're tight arses. They've designed fundamentally good platforms, but then try to save money on the componentry. If Birds and ACS can set them up better then it shows it doesn't take engineering genius to do it.
However, I suspect the majority of buyers don't care that much, so perhaps they're right. Jag have gone to the expense of a double wishbone front set up and it's done them bugger all good.

Also, still struggling to properly deal with their stupid decision to go with runflat tyres all across the range almost 15 years ago. They've ended up compromising the bushing to help deal with it, and then that has knock on consequences in the dynamics too.

[DriveS]

Originally Posted by JustChris

How do BMW get it so wrong with OEM...its frankly bizarre?! Great news for ACS but just weird considering the amount of testing BMW do.

Good write up OP.

Here is my take on it.

Let's face it the majority of BMW drivers do not want great handling suspension. They are after comfort.
On the E9x series BMW got heavily criticised from the suspension being too firm. Most reviews you read in the mainstream publications would advise going for the SE suspension as M-Sport was too firm.
This can put a lot of buyers off, so BMW had to change the F series. Adaptive suspension was their attempt to please the normal driver and someone who likes it a bit more sporty and for them its probably OK.
But for those who are looking for a good handling car and expected an upgrade on the E9x m-sport its just terrible. Sport mode is heavily compromised.

I hope the G series is better. I will not be going for adaptive suspension this time. For me its a gimmick. Suspension should be be comfortable and great handling and I am hoping that I get this when I get the ACS dampers fitted.

[rosstin]

Does anyone know how ACS springs / dampers leaves you regarding extended (insured) warranty?

Would it cover everything except suspension components, or would those be covered seeing as ACS are an approved modifier?

[JNW1]

Originally Posted by Tengocity

I'd say because they're tight arses. They've designed fundamentally good platforms, but then try to save money on the componentry. If Birds and ACS can set them up better then it shows it doesn't take engineering genius to do it. However, I suspect the majority of buyers don't care that much, so perhaps they're right.

I sort of get that but in reality how much extra would it cost BMW to fit a set of ACS springs (or equivalent) as opposed to the rubbish they fit as standard? I reckon the difference would be peanuts in the context of a £40k car like a 335d or 435d and, while a majority of buyers might not notice or care about the difference, those who expect an M-Sport BMW to handle properly almost certainly would! Appreciate the springs on their own aren't full ACS sports suspension but nevertheless I get the impression they improve the standard offering quite significantly.

Originally Posted by Tengocity

Jag have gone to the expense of a double wishbone front set up and it's done them bugger all good.

From a sales perspective the excellent chassis hasn't been able to offset deficiencies in other areas (poor interior quality, cramped interior in the XE, an indifferent reputation for reliability, an uninspiring range of engines, etc) but I don't think that makes Jaguar's approach to suspension design wrong!

Originally Posted by Tengocity

Also, still struggling to properly deal with their stupid decision to go with runflat tyres all across the range almost 15 years ago. They've ended up compromising the bushing to help deal with it, and then that has knock on consequences in the dynamics too.

Agree 100%, the decision to go with runflats was a serious mistake IMO but then again perhaps a lot of buyers don't care? It never ceases to amaze me that some buyers opt to ditch Michelin Pilot Super Sports in favour of runflats on cars like the M140i/M240i but when you look on the AUC website there are always a few that have the downgrade option!

[JustChris]

I actually think folks like us would happily pay for factory fit option:-

'Decent suspension set up'

Just another annoying variable for production though. Everyone is correct the masses win and that isn't really geeks that log onto car forums.

[g9icy]

Originally Posted by Tengocity

The problem with driving cars with properly set up suspension is that once you've felt how good it can be, there's no going back... unless you sort it you'll always know it's letting the car down!

That's 3 cars in a row now I've had to go aftermarket for the suspension... and when I drive the 330e, which is completely standard, I get the reminder of how crap it is.

So will you be fitting a set of Lorcan's dampers to yours?

This is exactly my problem. Now I've felt how good it was, it will annoy me forever.

I'm still sorting out the finances for it. It's not cheap...Was hoping it would be a birthday present but that's not happening now

Also I forgot about the warranty side of things... I may have to wait until the initial warranty is up before going for it.

I *will* be having them fitted. It's just a case of when.

Also I forgot to mention that the 335d touring's engine sounded smoother and felt much more punchy than my 435d. Apparently it's unmodified, so I'm wondering what's going on with mine now...

[Tengocity]

Originally Posted by g9icy

This is exactly my problem. Now I've felt how good it was, it will annoy me forever.

I'm still sorting out the finances for it. It's not cheap...Was hoping it would be a birthday present but that's not happening now

Also I forgot about the warranty side of things... I may have to wait until the initial warranty is up before going for it.

I *will* be having them fitted. It's just a case of when.

Also I forgot to mention that the 335d touring's engine sounded smoother and felt much more punchy than my 435d. Apparently it's unmodified, so I'm wondering what's going on with mine now...

Warranty isn't an issue, you're standard will still be in force for any other part of the car.

[g9icy]

Originally Posted by JustChris

How do BMW get it so wrong with OEM...its frankly bizarre?! Great news for ACS but just weird considering the amount of testing BMW do.

Good write up OP.

I think it's to do with target audience, as other's have said. At the end of the day these cars are pretty much bog-standard consumer grade cars with bloody good engines thrown up front.

I imagine the suspension on a proper M car is perfect for what it is, and driving a true M car is next on my todo list.

The M-Sport kit should absolutely provide significantly better suspension than what we end up with.

I felt pissed off at BMW today. For the price of this damn car, it should feel this good already.

Now who wants to let me drive their M*? :P

[DriveS]

Thats the point. The M-sport should be a sports model with sports handling and M-car the best possible road handling technology available. If you are not bothered about firm sporty handling then go for the SE.

When a new car model comes out the manufacturer should aspire to improve it in all areas, but someone seems to have said at BMW "we will make the m-sport model on the F series have worse handling than the E9x series" and everything else an improvement. Either is was a conscious decision or they just could not achieve it with the compromise of adaptive suspension, which has probably been a big selling point.

[Tengocity]

Originally Posted by g9icy

I think it's to do with target audience, as other's have said. At the end of the day these cars are pretty much bog-standard consumer grade cars with bloody good engines thrown up front.

I imagine the suspension on a proper M car is perfect for what it is, and driving a true M car is next on my todo list.

The M-Sport kit should absolutely provide significantly better suspension than what we end up with.

I felt pissed off at BMW today. For the price of this damn car, it should feel this good already.

Now who wants to let me drive their M*? :P

I'm afraid that when it comes to damping the M4 isn't all that great either. Not terrible, but not a match for the engine. In terms of set up, so how precise it is, the feel, etc then it's very very good.
I've had to put on coilovers again to get back to the level of damping i had got used to with my 335d on ACS RS suspension.

[g9icy]

Originally Posted by Tengocity

I'm afraid that when it comes to damping the M4 isn't all that great either. Not terrible, but not a match for the engine. In terms of set up, so how precise it is, the feel, etc then it's very very good.
I've had to put on coilovers again to get back to the level of damping i had got used to with my 335d on ACS RS suspension.

Huh, I didn't expect that. I'm a little bit dissapointed.

I'll be very interested to see how the G generations deal with this.

Originally Posted by DriveS

Thats the point. The M-sport should be a sports model with sports handling and M-car the best possible road handling technology available.

Agreed.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by DriveS

Thats the point. The M-sport should be a sports model with sports handling and M-car the best possible road handling technology available. If you are not bothered about firm sporty handling then go for the SE.

When a new car model comes out the manufacturer should aspire to improve it in all areas, but someone seems to have said at BMW "we will make the m-sport model on the F series have worse handling than the E9x series" and everything else an improvement. Either is was a conscious decision or they just could not achieve it with the compromise of adaptive suspension, which has probably been a big selling point.

My take, BMW have got away with it due to the customer base, still do. It predates run-flats to be honest, (Kevin Bird has commented on this in the past), rides had become very 'knobbly' ahead of RFTs. Also, many a BMW has been fitted with optional wheels over the years which are too big, ride and handling compromised and BMW users have come back for more. To a degree, we deserve what we get. Plus BMW suspensions are not designed for UK roads, (some good technical press on this point), spring rates are usually a compromise, both for standard and M-sport suspensions. E9x models being typical examples of calibrations being all wrong for UK roads.

Run-flats were fitted due to customer demand, from my reading over the years, an engineer's nightmare. Reports from focus groups and user fears of punctures and blowouts, explain why BMW went the so called safety route.

For many users, the F3x models improved on the suspension issues in the E9x models, more comfort, less harsh a ride. Not all see it that way, as many want a much firmer setup. Some want a sport car setup in a family saloon. Can be a conflict, particularly if passengers are carried. Driver only preferences are not necessarily a 'model' for loaded cars.

What I don't understand, we don't see many users specifying BMW's own performance suspension, why not? There's an option off the shelf, which should give an improved 'sport' suspension, but for some reason it seems to be skipped in favour of aftermarket kit. Perhaps if it had been made a factory fit option, this discussion would be a different one.

[HighlandPete]

G20 suspension is getting mixed reviews, still appears some negatives, not a positive recommendation for the M-sport setup in magazines like WhatCar, which many BMW users will be looking to, for what options to specify.

Enthusiasts are really a different market segment, very individual in what they prefer, always have been. That's why the aftermarket exists, nothing new there. I was fitting after market dampers to cars back in my younger days, back in the 1970's. For the same reasons, OE setups could be improved upon for what I wanted from a chassis.

[Lorcan]

Thanks for the write-up Wayne .

Terry you're ruined for normal cars now

Pete is correct, BMW are building cars for all over the world including places where the roads are very poor, so there will always be compromises. We exploit those compromises to bring you products that, in some people's minds at least, better suit UK drivers' expectations. We sold lots of sports kits for the E9X M Sport to make them more comfortable (and handle better), and we're confident that there will be "room for improvement" in the G20 too

[johnnybforbacon]

Originally Posted by g9icy

...today with @Lorcan at MP-UK/Awesome nr. Manchester.

What a massive difference!

Before today I had no frame of reference, only having experienced stock suspension on all my cars, so hearing the hype around the AC Schnitzer suspension package left me wondering what the differences really were.

Well now I know, with a massive thanks to Lorcan, and John at Awesome.

The 335d touring I drove today felt significantly more planted and handled bumps in the road without any "crashiness" or uncomfortable feelings at all. The car felt stable and confident. I felt like I could 'feel' the surface of the road, though I'm not sure if that's due to the MP4S's or the suspension.

With regards to feeling the road surface more, I felt it more through the back wheels than the front, if that makes any sense. I also had more confidence in the car overall.

For comparison on the drive home, over the same roads in my stock 435d, the car would sort of "wobble" after bumps and some deeper ones would cause a crashy feeling, almost like the car's bottomed out. The car feels "floaty". That's the best way I can describe how mine feels in comparison, even in sport as mine has adaptive.

This has sort of settled my doubts about keeping the car as well, as I was considering swapping it once my VT period is up, but no... I think there's still fun to be had with this one. Shame it doesn't come out of the factory feeling that good!

So thanks again to those responsible, and I hope this post helps in some way for those who are on the fence about the swap themselves.

-g9icy

What was the actual set up? Sports dampers with springs? I'm going to get the springs fitted on mine but not sure whether to save a bit more and get the dampers all in one go if it is really that good...

I've not got the adaptive on mine, it's the xDrive so is just on the SE suspension and it doesn't cope too great with bumps and moves a lot in the corners.

[Lorcan]

Yes, our sports kit which is springs and dampers:

https://shop.rossiters.co.uk/sports-...rom-2135-p.asp

[Tengocity]

Originally Posted by Lorcan

Terry you're ruined for normal cars now

Yes, and not just normal cars. An M4 is hardly normal, and yet I had to sort it.

Are Mercedes and Audi damping any better?

Of (relatively) mainstream manufacturers I suspect only a Porsche as standard would satisfy me now.

I think an Alpina is making BMWs how the really should be. Road capable and optimised, but without the aggression.

[johnnybforbacon]

Originally Posted by Lorcan

Yes, our sports kit which is springs and dampers:

https://shop.rossiters.co.uk/sports-...rom-2135-p.asp

Cheers Lorcan, I've just had a look.

Does that price include the springs as well? And by adaptive does that just get incorporated into the 'Comfort/Sport etc' modes or does that mean you can manually adjust it?

Thanks

[GoranBonn]

Originally Posted by Tengocity

Are Mercedes and Audi damping any better?

Of (relatively) mainstream manufacturers I suspect only a Porsche as standard would satisfy me now.

I can share the following experience. I recently sold a 330d (rwd) with standard suspension. The car was fine at first (coming from an 8th gen Civic sedan, this was a huge step up in comfort) but after a year or two I realized that the car is bouncy. Specifically on highways after a bump, it would bounce up and down more than what I would think would be normal. In sportier driving it was very soft with the nose diving in corners, but nothing problematic.

Now I have an Audi A4 Quattro (2.0 diesel, current gen B9). It is waaay smoother and more comfortable on the road and on the highway. It made me realize how bad the 330d really was. The audi has adaptive suspension optioned though, however in any mode it is better than the BMW.

In the mean time I tried also a Porsche Cayman 718, a BMW M2. Also my wife drives a Mini Cooper S (which doubles its role as the weekend fun car since the Audi is anything but sporty).

The M2 is firm and sporty, but harsh on the butt. The Cayman is equally firm and sporty, but much more refined suspension - driven on more or less same quality of road as the M2, the Cayman was way better. The M2 was simply unrefined in the way it bumps you up and down.

The Mini is also firm but not as uncultured as the M2. I quite like it. On bad quality roads it is also harsh, and the Cayman is definitely better, but the Mini is still way better than the 330d.