[Cafe.Racer]

As the septics don't have the 320D, I thought it'd be better to post in here.

I was wondering if the, presumably, bigger intercooler on the larger engines was a striaght-ish swap? Anyone had a look, or could get me a pic looking straight down behind the radiator + dimensions?

I feel the need to go 0.01 sec faster 0-60

[dxb335d]

Dont think it would be a straight swap but yes it could be made to fit, but wouldnt incread performance. The stock 'cooler is sufficient enough. Want you need is more fuel + boost if you want more power!!

if you already have a tuning box which i believe you do phil then the next step if your serious would be a uprated turbo. Intercooler will be fine at this next stage i believe!



Carlos

[Ti Rich]

Originally Posted by dxb335d

Dont think it would be a straight swap but yes it could be made to fit, but wouldnt incread performance. The stock 'cooler is sufficient enough. Want you need is more fuel + boost if you want more power!!

if you already have a tuning box which i believe you do phil then the next step if your serious would be a uprated turbo. Intercooler will be fine at this next stage i believe!

Carlos

I agree with what Carlos is saying here too. Having tuned the earlier version of the 320d engine in my old MG ZT from 129BHP to 172 BHP. You will find that the standard turbo is already at the limit once the car is remapped. A new intercooler would only be beneficial if combined with a larger (or modified) turbo.

I would go for a de-cat and single box exhaust next if any thing. They really are not loud on a diesel and will make the car more lively to drive off and on boost.

[Cafe.Racer]

Originally Posted by dxb335d

Dont think it would be a straight swap but yes it could be made to fit, but wouldnt incread performance. The stock 'cooler is sufficient enough. Want you need is more fuel + boost if you want more power!!

Any intercooler could be "made to fit". And what information do you have to base your "wouldn't increase performance" statement on?

Originally Posted by Ti Rich

I agree with what Carlos is saying here too. Having tuned the earlier version of the 320d engine in my old MG ZT from 129BHP to 172 BHP. You will find that the standard turbo is already at the limit once the car is remapped. A new intercooler would only be beneficial if combined with a larger (or modified) turbo.

I would go for a de-cat and single box exhaust next if any thing. They really are not loud on a diesel and will make the car more lively to drive off and on boost.

There must be some engine/turbo differences, between the two, obviously. Were you able to look at post intercooler intake temperatures at all? What boost did it run?

It depends on your outlook, you either run "mo' boost" then fit a bigger intercooler, or you do it the other way round...

Anyway, just wondering, obviously a bigger intercooler would increase lag...

[dxb335d]

Originally Posted by Cafe.Racer

Any intercooler could be "made to fit". And what information do you have to base your "wouldn't increase performance" statement on?



There must be some engine/turbo differences, between the two, obviously. Were you able to look at post intercooler intake temperatures at all? What boost did it run?

It depends on your outlook, you either run "mo' boost" then fit a bigger intercooler, or you do it the other way round...

Anyway, just wondering, obviously a bigger intercooler would increase lag...

A bigger intercooler will not increase lag, lag is increased by a bigger turbine and higher boost. (longer to spool up etc)

If you run more boost, a bigger intercooler is only required if the original one is insufficient. (or if you tune far enough which neccesitates a larger 'cooler)

You will not see any gains rom just an intercooler as the original one is NOT struggling with stock power. Even with a re-map the turbo and intercooler is not under strain, if the intercooler was struggling the car would be suffering performance wise and therefore a bigger intercooler needed.

[kplonk]

Hi,

Is it not the case that if the internal volume of the intercooler is much larger or if a longer pipe is needed to connect it, the turbo will take slightly longer to compress the larger volume of air to the same level? This could be described as lag.

Of course I may be wrong.

[creepy coupe]

Originally Posted by kplonk

Hi,

Is it not the case that if the internal volume of the intercooler is much larger or if a longer pipe is needed to connect it, the turbo will take slightly longer to compress the larger volume of air to the same level? This could be described as lag.

Of course I may be wrong.

Lag is due to the ability of the turbo to respond quickly, the bigger the unit the more inertia (gas speed) is required, the size of the intercooler isn't a factor where lag is concerned as it primary job is to cool the incoming charge, the cooler the charge the denser the air, which in turn means a bigger bang when mixed with the correct fuel ratio, however if you go too big the volume of air might be too much for a small turbo charger to move and by the time it get to the cylinder head be too slow.

[Cafe.Racer]

Originally Posted by dxb335d

A bigger intercooler will not increase lag, lag is increased by a bigger turbine and higher boost. (longer to spool up etc)

If you run more boost, a bigger intercooler is only required if the original one is insufficient. (or if you tune far enough which neccesitates a larger 'cooler)

You will not see any gains rom just an intercooler as the original one is NOT struggling with stock power. Even with a re-map the turbo and intercooler is not under strain, if the intercooler was struggling the car would be suffering performance wise and therefore a bigger intercooler needed.

I'd disagree with you there. Strongly. But it depends on your definition of "lag" and "boost threshold", and how much bigger the bigger intercooler is.

BUT, both of us are talking out of our arses, as neither of us knows if the 330/335D intercooler is bigger (it might be the same size) and neither of us knows if the stock 320D intercooler can or can't cope with the extra charge temp that a remap might bring. What I'm saying is that neither of knows if the 320D would benefit from a larger core. You say that it doesn't need one - that the original is NOT struggling with stock power, but do you have any data on this? If you have, I'd like to see it. I didn't actually say that the 320D needed one, I just wondered if one would fit!

I have to admit that I don't know a right lot about diesel tuning, so I don't know if they respond to a reduction in charge temp as well as a petrol does - but you'll surely know from your cossie days what the effects of charge temperature reduction are.

Thanks for the "lesson" anyway

[dxb335d]

Originally Posted by Cafe.Racer

I'd disagree with you there. Strongly. But it depends on your definition of "lag" and "boost threshold", and how much bigger the bigger intercooler is.

BUT, both of us are talking out of our arses, as neither of us knows if the 330/335D intercooler is bigger (it might be the same size) and neither of us knows if the stock 320D intercooler can or can't cope with the extra charge temp that a remap might bring. What I'm saying is that neither of knows if the 320D would benefit from a larger core. You say that it doesn't need one - that the original is NOT struggling with stock power, but do you have any data on this? If you have, I'd like to see it. I didn't actually say that the 320D needed one, I just wondered if one would fit!

I have to admit that I don't know a right lot about diesel tuning, so I don't know if they respond to a reduction in charge temp as well as a petrol does - but you'll surely know from your cossie days what the effects of charge temperature reduction are.

Thanks for the "lesson" anyway

Fook me, there would be uproar if the stock 'cooler on yours wasnt up to the job, the car would be limping all the time. IT IS UPTO the job on a standard and re-mapped 320d..

have you had issues then?

edit yes i know what happens with cossie turbos etc... but the stock cooler on a cossie is good for 300bhp from a stock 204bhp on a saff cossie.

Your cooler is fine for a re-mapped 210bhp, if it wasnt it good already be struggling in this heat!

[jjbirch]

i wonder if a new filter would do the trick like a K&N one as the person who did my map said it wouldnt give it a big power output but better throttle response and the filter is lasts a life time

[dxb335d]

Originally Posted by jjbirch

i wonder if a new filter would do the trick like a K&N one as the person who did my map said it wouldnt give it a big power output but better throttle response and the filter is lasts a life time

I dont agree with Cone filters unless your running BIG power!

Cone filter is not really needed on our applications. All it will do is let in more heat which is no good to the engine, warm air = not as dense!

The standard airbox flows enough air easily enough and will keep it cooler due to its enclosed design compared to a cone filter.

If you were running a 500+BHP 2.0 turbo then for sure a cone filter would be needed as the standard offering will not flow enough air!

[jjbirch]

dont think it is a cone filter carl, but i am not sure i think its just rip out the old and in with the new link for 320d http://www.knfilters.com/search/prod...px?Prod=E-2653

[dxb335d]

Oh yes a panel filter is a good idea mate, sorry i presumed you meant cone sorry!

[Cafe.Racer]

Originally Posted by dxb335d

Fook me, there would be uproar if the stock 'cooler on yours wasnt up to the job, the car would be limping all the time. IT IS UPTO the job on a standard and re-mapped 320d..

have you had issues then?

edit yes i know what happens with cossie turbos etc... but the stock cooler on a cossie is good for 300bhp from a stock 204bhp on a saff cossie.

Your cooler is fine for a re-mapped 210bhp, if it wasnt it good already be struggling in this heat!

Oh good god. I give up. No, wait, I'll have one more try.

On a petrol, ANY reduction in charge temperature increases power, I would assume that this is the same on a diesel. On a petrol, as charge temperature increases, timing is retarded. I won't assume the same applies to a diesel, but there might be other impacts

If anyone can point me at any DIESEL related reading, I'd be grateful.

You do NOT have to be in a situation where the ECU is going into limp mode for a larger/more efficient intercooler to make an improvement. The assumption that the intercooler can't be improved/doesn't need to be because cars aren't limping all the time is just absurd.

You might as well argue that FWD cars are just as good as RWD because they're not crashing all the time...

You are making the statement that a mapped/boxed 320D does not "need" a larger intercooler without any figures or evidence. If you had some, I might listen.

Actually, panel filter and a higher flow program are next on my list. I'd like to be in a situation that I had a sensible replacement intercooler option, particularly as the temperatures are increasing.

Perhaps you could be helpful by getting me a picture of yours?

[jjbirch]

Originally Posted by Cafe.Racer

Oh good god. I give up. No, wait, I'll have one more try.

On a petrol, ANY reduction in charge temperature increases power, I would assume that this is the same on a diesel. On a petrol, as charge temperature increases, timing is retarded. I won't assume the same applies to a diesel, but there might be other impacts

If anyone can point me at any DIESEL related reading, I'd be grateful.

You do NOT have to be in a situation where the ECU is going into limp mode for a larger/more efficient intercooler to make an improvement. The assumption that the intercooler can't be improved/doesn't need to be because cars aren't limping all the time is just absurd.

You might as well argue that FWD cars are just as good as RWD because they're not crashing all the time...

You are making the statement that a mapped/boxed 320D does not "need" a larger intercooler without any figures or evidence. If you had some, I might listen.

Actually, panel filter and a higher flow program are next on my list. I'd like to be in a situation that I had a sensible replacement intercooler option, particularly as the temperatures are increasing.

Perhaps you could be helpful by getting me a picture of yours?

sorry phil at the time i never did it, but i wish i did but never botherd after m8

[dxb335d]

Originally Posted by Cafe.Racer

Oh good god. I give up. No, wait, I'll have one more try.

On a petrol, ANY reduction in charge temperature increases power, I would assume that this is the same on a diesel. On a petrol, as charge temperature increases, timing is retarded. I won't assume the same applies to a diesel, but there might be other impacts

If anyone can point me at any DIESEL related reading, I'd be grateful.

You do NOT have to be in a situation where the ECU is going into limp mode for a larger/more efficient intercooler to make an improvement. The assumption that the intercooler can't be improved/doesn't need to be because cars aren't limping all the time is just absurd.

You might as well argue that FWD cars are just as good as RWD because they're not crashing all the time...

You are making the statement that a mapped/boxed 320D does not "need" a larger intercooler without any figures or evidence. If you had some, I might listen.

Actually, panel filter and a higher flow program are next on my list. I'd like to be in a situation that I had a sensible replacement intercooler option, particularly as the temperatures are increasing.

Perhaps you could be helpful by getting me a picture of yours?

what im saying is without more boost you wont see any massive gains by fitting a larger intercooler!

maybe 10bhp, and that in all honesty aint worth the outlay for a larger cooler!

[dxb335d]

Originally Posted by Cafe.Racer

Oh good god. Perhaps you could be helpful by getting me a picture of yours?

i will take a pic for you

[e-maps]

The part numbers for the charge cooler are different on all the 320d, 330d and 335d, looking at the pictures they look the same size, just different shape for fitting location.

Charge coolers do what they say, cool down the air charging into the inlet manifold. If the charge air temp is to high the ECU will pull down injection quantity to limit the power to bring the temp down. These are known as safety limiters. Once the temp is down injection quanity rises. There is one for the oil temp and gearbox temps as well.

The only time the ECU will limit power is flat out, high speed driving for long periods at high ambient temps, I would never expect this to happen in the UK so not much point in going for a larger charge cooler

[Cafe.Racer]

Cheers Si.

[DaveC]

Bigger intercooler = larger temperature drop for the air going through it which equals colder and denser charge hitting the cylinders, but it will increase lag (a little) despite what some have claimed as there is more volume of nice compressable air between the compressor side of the turbo and the cylinders.

The biggest air/air intercooler in the world wont reduce charge temperature to less than ambient air temperature so you really need to know if its a limiting factor in the current setup - ideally you'd get a temperature sensor in there and see what its doing. The increased boost from a tuning box will always push up the charge temperature so if you can drop a bigger cooler in without major modifications I'd say try it. My guess would be there will be small gains but nothing dramatic - tuning boxes dont ramp up the boost all that much.

Carlos - I dont even know where to start! Your car produces significantly more power on a cold damp day than it does on a stinking hot summer day - thats a difference of what 25degC max? There is no such thing as a struggling intercooler - they all cool to some extent but its a question of how much cooling they do and if getting another 10degC cooling would help. It's why water injection increases power and one of the nice side benefits of nitrous - cooler charge = more bang.

Of course, if the turbo is maxed out as someone said then things might be different, I'd guess cooling the charge more would cause the turbo to see an increased airflow or pressure drop if it couldn't meet the demands.

[DaveC]

Originally Posted by e-maps

The only time the ECU will limit power is flat out, high speed driving for long periods at high ambient temps, I would never expect this to happen in the UK so not much point in going for a larger charge cooler

Only if the air reaching the cylinders is down to ambient air temperature, otherwise any increase in cooling will produce more power - it may not be the most effective mod but lower temperatures mean more power.

[e-maps]

Originally Posted by DaveC

The biggest air/air intercooler in the world wont reduce charge temperature to less than ambient air temperature so you really need to know if its a limiting factor in the current setup - ideally you'd get a temperature sensor in there and see what its doing. The increased boost from a tuning box will always push up the charge temperature so if you can drop a bigger cooler in without major modifications I'd say try it. My guess would be there will be small gains but nothing dramatic - tuning boxes dont ramp up the boost all that much.

I know i am picking flys here..... Tuning boxes dont increase boost pressure, only fuel rail pressure

The more fuel you push in the cylinders, the more is burnt the more temps go up, boost pressure is not the main culprit for high exhaust temps. There is a temp sensor in the tube from the charge cooler going into the manifold. This monitors the charge air temp. If you want more power just push in more fuel and air