Good article on the RFT..

Solonng · 05-11-2008, 11:31 PM

Will Bridgestone follow suit? I'm nervous about these run flats..Is it possible to put non run flats on the OEM wheels?

By CHRISTOPHER JENSEN
Published: April 20, 2008
WHEN Michelin introduced its PAX run-flat tire in the United States on the Touring edition of the 2005 Honda Odyssey minivan, it predicted that the innovative wheel-tire combination “could become as commonplace as fold-flat seats.”

But now the tiremaker is giving up on PAX. A Michelin spokeswoman, Lynn Mann, said the company was no longer trying to sell automakers the system, which Michelin once described as “the biggest technical innovation in the tire industry since we introduced the radial tire nearly 60 years ago.”

She said that Michelin decided to discontinue PAX because automakers had several other choices in run-flat technology and that there was “slow growth of the extended-mobility tire segment in general.”

Ms. Mann said complaints from some consumers and lawsuits about problems — including high replacement costs and difficulties getting the tires repaired — did not play a role in the decision. She said the tiremaker would continue to provide replacements and service to consumers who already had the tires.

With PAX, Michelin tried an approach quite different from other run-flat tires. Typically, this type of tire was designed with extra-strong sidewalls to help support the vehicle if the air escaped. With PAX, Michelin used a supportive ring made of polyurethane inside the tire. Michelin said the ring meant the sidewalls did not have to be so stiff, preserving ride comfort — yet if the tire went flat, the vehicle would still be safe to drive 125 miles at speeds up to 55 m.p.h.

But that inner-ring design made the PAX more difficult to repair, requiring special equipment to mount and dismount the tire. That equipment is available primarily at Michelin or Honda dealers. In several lawsuits and on some Web sites, consumers have complained about the difficulty of finding shops with the equipment to work on PAX; they also cite excessive tire wear and replacement costs as high as $1,600 for four tires.

Honda and Michelin officials have denied that consumers were misled. They have said that the PAX system delivered what was promised: the safety and convenience of being able to drive even with a punctured tire.

One class-action suit filed against Honda and Michelin last year in United States District Court in Los Angeles was dismissed. That decision is on appeal. Michelin and Honda are still facing a class-action suit in the United States District Court in Maryland. It consolidates class-action suits from Arizona, Illinois, New York and Florida. A judge has yet to grant that suit class-action status so it can proceed.

Honda is named in the suit because the PAX system was standard on the Touring edition of the 2005-7 Honda Odyssey minivan and is a $600 option on the 2008 model. A Honda spokesman, Chris Naughton, declined to say whether the 2009 Odyssey would offer PAX. The PAX system has been an option on the 2006-8 Acura RL luxury sedan; the 2009 RL coming this summer will not offer PAX, Mr. Naughton said. The PAX system was an option on the 2007 Nissan Quest minivan. Nissan is not offering it on the 2008 model.

Honda recommends that owners who have the PAX system not change to conventional wheels. Chris Martin, a Honda spokesman, said the Touring model’s suspension was tuned for the PAX tires and switching to conventional wheels “would compromise the ride and handling.”

x986 · 05-12-2008, 12:02 AM

Thanx, it is interesting, kind of.

Solonng · 05-12-2008, 12:04 AM

It is interesting to see an industry leader stepping away from making RF. $300 a tire is ridiculous in my opinion.

Solonng · 05-12-2008, 12:05 AM

Thats the cost for two tires on my clk convertible. And these tires were high performance michelins.

jonerik26 · 05-12-2008, 12:08 AM

i have non-run flats on my oem...

wagonmaster · 05-12-2008, 12:50 AM

I just swapped out my horrendous runflats with non-runflat tires and I have had no issues. I just couldn't take the harsh ride and road noise anymore. Took a soaking on pitching them with so few miles, but I have been happy with the decision. And if I do get a flat in some place that hasn't invested in the extra equipment needed to service a runflat tire, I will be able to fix or replace a tire more easily. All 4 new tires cost just about as much as 2 of the old runflats. I run lighter ASA wheels with snow tires in winter and my car responds more nimbly than my stock wheels with the new tires. Might have to research wheels....

Taittinger · 05-12-2008, 06:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solonng

It is interesting to see an industry leader stepping away from making RF. $300 a tire is ridiculous in my opinion.

I read that as Michelin stopping their PAX technology run-flats, not necessarily ceasing run-flat production. According to the article, the reasons are availability alternative brands and the particular difficulty of replacing the tires due to the special equipment the PAX requires. Bridgestone uses traditional run-flat design.

jprieur · 05-12-2008, 08:13 AM

Michelin is NOT ditching the run flat concept, just their PAX concept. Micheline offers many tires in run flat form, what michelin calls ZP (zero pressure). A small percentage of e90's with the 18" wheel sport package are factory equipped with Michelin PS2 ZP right now. The very same tire is also OEM on the Chevy Corvette.

I have the michelin PS2 ZP on my 335i and I can honestly say they are amazing and show no signs of being a runflat (I drove with the bridgestones for 13k miles so I am able to compare).

RFT technology is not going away and the price of this technology will come down as numbers increase.

shaddai · 05-12-2008, 01:23 PM

Oh hell no. I have PAX on my 06 Honda Odyssey. The sides of the tires are bald (or practically bald) while I have somewhere around 4mm of tread in the middle. Every time I take it to the dealer, I complain about the tire wear situation. Last time I was there they found a Honda Bulletin stating that "it is normal" as long as the difference was no more than 2mm. Well that didn't seem to sink in. Did I mention that the tires only have 17k on them? It doesn't help either that the Odyssey, according to my dealer, doesn't have adjustable camber up front.

The PAX design is quite different than other designs due to the center ring, so I'm hoping the runflats on my upcoming 335i won't suck as bad as these do.

BK · 05-12-2008, 01:32 PM

I have one of those Ody Tourings with the PAX tires. For a minivan, they are a better way to go than stiff sidewall RFTs. They're pretty comfortable. But they are expensive, just like our RFTs. I'll have to check the wear on them after shaddai's post above.

I actually don't mind the OEM ZSP Bridgestone RFT tires on my car. I think they're better than people make them out to be. Nevertheless, once mine are worn out, I plan on switching to PS2s and carrying fix-a-flat or something.

shaddai · 05-12-2008, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BK

I have one of those Ody Tourings with the PAX tires. For a minivan, they are a better way to go than stiff sidewall RFTs. They're pretty comfortable. But they are expensive, just like our RFTs. I'll have to check the wear on them after shaddai's post above.

I'll have to find the paper the dealer gave me. It showed a cross section of the tire design and the outside edges of the casing have little bumps that supposedly cause this issue. I don't buy it.

Other than the crappy PAX, I love my minivan.

shaddai · 05-12-2008, 01:58 PM

Found it. It's a poor quality GIF file though.

F32Fleet · 05-12-2008, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jprieur

RFT technology is not going away .....

100% CORRECT. RFT's are a response to the Firestone/Ford Explorer fiasco, and all cars will have TPMS, and some form of RFT. Blame bad drivers, and underinflated tires. (btw...unless you're a complete spazz, it's almost impossible to flip a SUV on a blowout. Consumer Reports could not get it to happen when they tested an Explorer).

BK · 05-13-2008, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shaddai

Found it. It's a poor quality GIF file though.

Cool, thanks.

Couch · 05-13-2008, 08:54 AM

The continual verbage of companies saying "the suspension was designed around RFT's" is such bullshit. If that were true, then none of the posters here would say normal tires are better/handling better. RFT's SUCK!!! SUCK SUCK SUCK!

If BMW doesn't rethink they're strategy in having them as an option only, and not standard, I'm not sure I'll buy another Bimmer.

05-11-2008, 11:31 PM	#1
Solonng Captain 110 Rep 829 Posts Drives: Monacco Blue 335i coupe Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Florida iTrader: (0)	Good article on the RFT.. Will Bridgestone follow suit? I'm nervous about these run flats..Is it possible to put non run flats on the OEM wheels? By CHRISTOPHER JENSEN Published: April 20, 2008 WHEN Michelin introduced its PAX run-flat tire in the United States on the Touring edition of the 2005 Honda Odyssey minivan, it predicted that the innovative wheel-tire combination “could become as commonplace as fold-flat seats.” But now the tiremaker is giving up on PAX. A Michelin spokeswoman, Lynn Mann, said the company was no longer trying to sell automakers the system, which Michelin once described as “the biggest technical innovation in the tire industry since we introduced the radial tire nearly 60 years ago.” She said that Michelin decided to discontinue PAX because automakers had several other choices in run-flat technology and that there was “slow growth of the extended-mobility tire segment in general.” Ms. Mann said complaints from some consumers and lawsuits about problems — including high replacement costs and difficulties getting the tires repaired — did not play a role in the decision. She said the tiremaker would continue to provide replacements and service to consumers who already had the tires. With PAX, Michelin tried an approach quite different from other run-flat tires. Typically, this type of tire was designed with extra-strong sidewalls to help support the vehicle if the air escaped. With PAX, Michelin used a supportive ring made of polyurethane inside the tire. Michelin said the ring meant the sidewalls did not have to be so stiff, preserving ride comfort — yet if the tire went flat, the vehicle would still be safe to drive 125 miles at speeds up to 55 m.p.h. But that inner-ring design made the PAX more difficult to repair, requiring special equipment to mount and dismount the tire. That equipment is available primarily at Michelin or Honda dealers. In several lawsuits and on some Web sites, consumers have complained about the difficulty of finding shops with the equipment to work on PAX; they also cite excessive tire wear and replacement costs as high as $1,600 for four tires. Honda and Michelin officials have denied that consumers were misled. They have said that the PAX system delivered what was promised: the safety and convenience of being able to drive even with a punctured tire. One class-action suit filed against Honda and Michelin last year in United States District Court in Los Angeles was dismissed. That decision is on appeal. Michelin and Honda are still facing a class-action suit in the United States District Court in Maryland. It consolidates class-action suits from Arizona, Illinois, New York and Florida. A judge has yet to grant that suit class-action status so it can proceed. Honda is named in the suit because the PAX system was standard on the Touring edition of the 2005-7 Honda Odyssey minivan and is a $600 option on the 2008 model. A Honda spokesman, Chris Naughton, declined to say whether the 2009 Odyssey would offer PAX. The PAX system has been an option on the 2006-8 Acura RL luxury sedan; the 2009 RL coming this summer will not offer PAX, Mr. Naughton said. The PAX system was an option on the 2007 Nissan Quest minivan. Nissan is not offering it on the 2008 model. Honda recommends that owners who have the PAX system not change to conventional wheels. Chris Martin, a Honda spokesman, said the Touring model’s suspension was tuned for the PAX tires and switching to conventional wheels “would compromise the ride and handling.”
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05-12-2008, 12:02 AM	#2
x986 First Lieutenant 96 Rep 378 Posts Drives: '16 340, ex e92 335, ex e46 M3 Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: North Bay Area, CA iTrader: (0) Garage List 1996 Ferrari F355 [0.00] 2014 Porsche Cayman S [0.00] 2020 M340i [0.00]	Thanx, it is interesting, kind of.
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05-12-2008, 12:04 AM	#3
Solonng Captain 110 Rep 829 Posts Drives: Monacco Blue 335i coupe Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Florida iTrader: (0)	It is interesting to see an industry leader stepping away from making RF. $300 a tire is ridiculous in my opinion.
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05-12-2008, 12:05 AM	#4
Solonng Captain 110 Rep 829 Posts Drives: Monacco Blue 335i coupe Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Florida iTrader: (0)	Thats the cost for two tires on my clk convertible. And these tires were high performance michelins.
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05-12-2008, 12:08 AM	#5
jonerik26 Lieutenant Colonel 58 Rep 1,906 Posts Drives: black 335i e90 PRE-LCI Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: somewhere iTrader: (23) Garage List 2007 335i [8.00] 1998 Acura Integra [8.50] 2006 325i [8.00]	i have non-run flats on my oem... __________________
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05-12-2008, 12:50 AM	#6
wagonmaster Private First Class 4 Rep 103 Posts Drives: 328xi Touring Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Seattle iTrader: (0)	I just swapped out my horrendous runflats with non-runflat tires and I have had no issues. I just couldn't take the harsh ride and road noise anymore. Took a soaking on pitching them with so few miles, but I have been happy with the decision. And if I do get a flat in some place that hasn't invested in the extra equipment needed to service a runflat tire, I will be able to fix or replace a tire more easily. All 4 new tires cost just about as much as 2 of the old runflats. I run lighter ASA wheels with snow tires in winter and my car responds more nimbly than my stock wheels with the new tires. Might have to research wheels....
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05-12-2008, 08:13 AM	#8
jprieur Private First Class 10 Rep 113 Posts Drives: 2007 335i Join Date: May 2007 Location: Virginia Beach, VA iTrader: (1)	Michelin is NOT ditching the run flat concept, just their PAX concept. Micheline offers many tires in run flat form, what michelin calls ZP (zero pressure). A small percentage of e90's with the 18" wheel sport package are factory equipped with Michelin PS2 ZP right now. The very same tire is also OEM on the Chevy Corvette. I have the michelin PS2 ZP on my 335i and I can honestly say they are amazing and show no signs of being a runflat (I drove with the bridgestones for 13k miles so I am able to compare). RFT technology is not going away and the price of this technology will come down as numbers increase.
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05-12-2008, 01:23 PM	#9
shaddai former N54 owner 11 Rep 607 Posts Drives: 2008 Audi S4 DTM Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Bay Area, CA iTrader: (0) Garage List 2008 335i [0.00]	Oh hell no. I have PAX on my 06 Honda Odyssey. The sides of the tires are bald (or practically bald) while I have somewhere around 4mm of tread in the middle. Every time I take it to the dealer, I complain about the tire wear situation. Last time I was there they found a Honda Bulletin stating that "it is normal" as long as the difference was no more than 2mm. Well that didn't seem to sink in. Did I mention that the tires only have 17k on them? It doesn't help either that the Odyssey, according to my dealer, doesn't have adjustable camber up front. The PAX design is quite different than other designs due to the center ring, so I'm hoping the runflats on my upcoming 335i won't suck as bad as these do. __________________ +lemon
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05-12-2008, 01:32 PM	#10
BK Smiling politely 165 Rep 7,931 Posts Drives: 330i Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Washington DC iTrader: (0) Garage List 2006 330i [9.00]	I have one of those Ody Tourings with the PAX tires. For a minivan, they are a better way to go than stiff sidewall RFTs. They're pretty comfortable. But they are expensive, just like our RFTs. I'll have to check the wear on them after shaddai's post above. I actually don't mind the OEM ZSP Bridgestone RFT tires on my car. I think they're better than people make them out to be. Nevertheless, once mine are worn out, I plan on switching to PS2s and carrying fix-a-flat or something. __________________ E90 330i Black Sapphire 6MT \| 991.1 C4 Platinum Silver 7MT
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05-12-2008, 01:58 PM	#12
shaddai former N54 owner 11 Rep 607 Posts Drives: 2008 Audi S4 DTM Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Bay Area, CA iTrader: (0) Garage List 2008 335i [0.00]	Found it. It's a poor quality GIF file though. Attached Images __________________ +lemon
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05-13-2008, 08:54 AM	#15
Couch Colonel 142 Rep 2,900 Posts Drives: E92 335i Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Houston iTrader: (0) Garage List 2007 E92 335i [0.00]	The continual verbage of companies saying "the suspension was designed around RFT's" is such bullshit. If that were true, then none of the posters here would say normal tires are better/handling better. RFT's SUCK!!! SUCK SUCK SUCK! If BMW doesn't rethink they're strategy in having them as an option only, and not standard, I'm not sure I'll buy another Bimmer.
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