[Worzey]

So today I've attended a car handling course with CarLimits.com at North Weald Airfield and what a day it was.

I decided to take the 440i MPPK rather than the R400 so I could get to grips with the on-limit handling in a safe environment. The R400 is used for track-days but it's unlikely the 440 will go anywhere near a track so this was the chance.

I was given a two person course as a birthday present (thanks Mrs W) which meant I got lots of tuition time. In fact, more than normal because Graham my fellow student had been on a few CarLimits of courses before so was sent off to revise what he'd learnt meaning I got near 1-2-1- tuition from Mark. Result!

The day started with high speed braking from about 70mph. With a few pointers and change in braking strategy I got the total distance down by about 70 meters from the first attempt. M-Sport+ brakes are very good indeed when you know what you're doing! Next on to high-speed cornering - all with traction and stability turned off (mostly). Hit 70mph and then pitch into a left-hand bend. We practiced without braking, with brakes and modulating the throttle. After a few spins I was consistently balancing the car into, through and out of the corner.

What shocked me with the multitude of cornering exercises we did was the tendency to understeer - big understeer. You could coax the car into oversteer with more throttle but it understeered way more than I was expecting. What would an Audi be like

After a hearty lunch it was back to more practice and car control techniques. Unfortunately this didn't go too well because I made myself car sick and had to keep taking breaks. How bizarre.

The final activity was a small circuit around a cone course designed to test all the techniques we'd learned. Fast corners, slow corners, braking, balance etc.
The 440 performed well but even with everything turned-off the electronic nanny (traction control) reigned back the power and slowed my pace after a couple of laps Instructor Mark also had a go and confirmed the electronics couldn't be fully disabled.

That said, while Mark was testing the car the MPPSK sounded incredible. Roaring like rolling thunder down the small straights and popping and banging. I loved it. Mark and Graham liked the car too. Both commented how well it went, how good the pickup was, both thought it felt close to M4 performance felt when accelerating. It surprised them both. Nice. However, I think the M4 allows you to turn all the electronics off completely?

Due to the issues with the electronics I completed my final 3 laps in Graham's Lotus Elise. Never having driven one before, let alone practiced the techniques, it was going to be a challenge for me. I'd also jumped straight from an automatic too made it even harder. What a fantastic little car - beautiful balance and feel. After two of sighting laps my third was actually 0.5 seconds faster than the best in the 440i and only 1 second off Graham's time over a 54 second lap. Given more practice I would definitely have gone much faster.

All in all a great day. Highly recommended. Might take the R400 next time and have a real play

[willjames]

Sounds awesome👍

[moff]

When of the best 'mods' you can do is this course.

I did it many years ago in a Honda S2000 and it was excellent!!

[Worzey]

I

Originally Posted by moff

When of the best 'mods' you can do is this course.

I did it many years ago in a Honda S2000 and it was excellent!!

I agree. Upgrading the driver is worth much more than adding more power. I always think driver -> tyres -> brakes -> power is the right order if you want to go faster on a trackday.

[Tengocity]

Originally Posted by moff

When of the best 'mods' you can do is this course.

I did it many years ago in a Honda S2000 and it was excellent!!

Yes this is true, but many mods for a track day are about making the car robust enough and to take the pounding as much as actually going faster.

But on track days I'm always surprised how many people never bother with any tuition.

[simon.]

Great review. Did this course a good few years ago with Andy Walsh & learnt a lot during the day.

Biggest thing was the trail braking into the high speed corner, it makes a massive difference & really stabilises the car.

[JLR1969]

Did something very similar with Audi. Used their cars which was better than using my own

[AlanYoro35i]

Originally Posted by Tengocity

Yes this is true, but many mods for a track day are about making the car robust enough and to take the pounding as much as actually going faster.

But on track days I'm always surprised how many people never bother with any tuition.

We all think we are natural talented, while sometimes it's true (in my case lol)
alot only found out when they ran out of talent on track or off track.

[DougMcL]

Originally Posted by AlanYoro35i

We all think we are natural talented, while sometimes it's true (in my case lol)
alot only found out when they ran out of talent on track or off track.

Agree with that for sure. I've just done a Porsche experience day which includes time on an "ice hill" and a skid pan with a kick plate. Certainly teaches you a lot about traction and handling behaviour. (And you get to drive whatever P-car you want!) At the first attempt driving through the ice hill slalom, I spun the car, but with much practise was able to drive through the whole thing with nary a twitch and all the aids off.

Most entertaining moment was driving over the kick plate with the steering wheel held firm in the straight-ahead position, car lost control and spun. Next attempt, over the kick plate with hands off the wheel... Car initially starts to spin, then self corrects and heads in the direction it was meant to go. Sometimes the best thing to do is absolutely nothing....

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by Worzey

....
What shocked me with the multitude of cornering exercises we did was the tendency to understeer - big understeer. You could coax the car into oversteer with more throttle but it understeered way more than I was expecting. What would an Audi be like
...

Cheers Worzey a really interesting post

You've mentioned something here that I've been talking about recently; the balance being set far too much to understeer. On my mundane urban trundles in traffic, it pretty much means constant understeer on roundabouts - to bring a neutral balance means more power/acceleration than it's actually possible to deploy (safely) most of the time. The 440i has ample power to bring the rear into play, but you shouldn't have to use that much of it in my opinion.

I do get the thinking that understeer=safe, especially as the majority of drivers are used to FWD. I think it's gone too far in that direction though and it's probably no safer if an oversteer/neutral balance novice only gets to experience it for the first time with a serious load of power going through the rear wheels.

[WTruter]

Good write up. always thought of doing one of these, but just never got round to it.
moff
What was the S2000 like on the day?

Want to take my S2000 on a handling day to learn exactly where the break point is and how best to react when it does go.

+1 for the mppsk. Can only judge from sound inside the car, but can imagine as a by stander, it must sound epic round a track!

[SkyJawa]

Did something similar at Millbrook with CAT driver training with the BabyBMW crowd.

Was a great day learning high speed braking, threshold braking, single input steer, high speed bowl and how the DSC systems work (played with all modes). The latter was really interesting as they showed that unless the car knows there is a problem, it won't sort it out. So for example if you have approached a corner too fast and are understeering, the car won't help you unless you make sudden inpulse movements on things like brakes and the wheel before it knows you're in a problem and tries to help.

It gave me a huge amount of confidence in my M140 and proved that it was actually a very capable car indeed.

Re the understeer, mine was the same, but the CAT guys actually train the people that do manufacturer testing and explained that pretty much every manufacturer designs in understeer these days as its the first thing a normal mong will experience to know that they are being silly and on that basis its easier to regain control with the help of the DSC systems than with the back end suddenly coming round....

They also sang the praises of the car, they couldn't believe a little rwd hatch had 340bhp!

Great days out and recommend them to anyone.

[werewolf81]

Originally Posted by Worzey

So today I've attended a car handling course with CarLimits.com at North Weald Airfield at what a day it was.

This is something I definitely want to try one day.

Did you have to buy any special insurance for your car? If so, could you tell how much you had to pay?

[Worzey]

Originally Posted by MashinBenzin

You've mentioned something here that I've been talking about recently; the balance being set far too much to understeer. On my mundane urban trundles in traffic, it pretty much means constant understeer on roundabouts - to bring a neutral balance means more power/acceleration than it's actually possible to deploy (safely) most of the time. The 440i has ample power to bring the rear into play, but you shouldn't have to use that much of it in my opinion.

We tried different techniques to balance the understeer. Obviously balancing the throttle can be used to induce oversteer which helps (and is lots of fun) but its not exactly good behavior on normal roads.

You could try winding off a tiny bit of lock which sounds counter intuitive but it helps the front end bite and actually tightens the turn. <<< I did learn something

One thing I did learn yesterday is that driving is best left on the track where it belongs.

[Worzey]

Originally Posted by werewolf81

This is something I definitely want to try one day.

Did you have to buy any special insurance for your car? If so, could you tell how much you had to pay?

No insurance. I checked beforehand but there is absolutely nothing to hit because the run off's are huge. Safety was paramount at all times. Didn't even need a helmet.

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by Worzey

We tried different techniques to balance the understeer. Obviously balancing the throttle can be used to induce oversteer which helps (and is lots of fun) but its not exactly good behavior on normal roads.

You could try winding off a tiny bit of lock which sounds counter intuitive but it helps the front end bite and actually tightens the turn. <<< I did learn something

One thing I did learn yesterday is that driving is best left on the track where it belongs.

Cheers for the tip

I agree, the track is the best/only place for that kind of pushing. Cars are insanely good by the standards of 20/30 years ago and almost anything is too quick to push on the road.

I'm really talking about bumbling around in a stream of average commuting cars, a more neutral balance/better front end bite would suit the car really well if they could/would engineer it that way. Perhaps the standard steering doesn't help and maybe I should have taken VSS as a few forum members tried to 'steer' me towards when speccing.

[sensible]

I did a similar course at MIRA for my old job as a Police Forensic Collision Investigator. Following a classroom session, we had one to one tuition in a BMW M3 and some high powered front wheel drive cars that were kitted out with roll cages, wearing helmets and intercom.

We did braking tests on various surfaces included simulated ice. We did braking on two different surfaces to simulate grip on one side of the car and ice on the other and the handling of the loss of control that happened. These were done with ABS switched on and with it off and with the stability control on and off to appreciate how the elctronic systems help you out.

We did high speed cornering, pushing the car to its limits of adhesion with the road and beyond (wet track/ dry track/simulated snow and ice), and then how to regain control...also including emergency braking whilst cornering using stability control and with it switched off. (They could fully switch off the DSC on their car, something that we are not able to do, as it always works in the background to help you even though it allows some wheel slippage)

We were able to do high speed lane changes in the event of something happening infront of you, with violent directional changes without losing control....to name but a few of the techniques explored.

One of the stand out points learnt was that the stability control really works. It enables the driver to emergency brake whilst high speed cornering on its limits of friction, put in voilent changes of direction that would spin the car with it switched off, but with it on, the car remained stable and pointed in the direction you wanted to go.

I thought I knew a lot about driving having spend 25 years as a Police Traffic/Motorway officer and Collision Investigator, but it was a real eye opener.

The MIRA course wasn't cheap. Although tuition was one to one, they needed two people on a course at any one time, so it cost £2500 for two, for one day.

I believe these courses are open to the public. Anyone interested can see what they offer here, and watch the video:
https://www.horiba-mira.com/our-serv...river-training

[moff]

Originally Posted by WTruter

Good write up. always thought of doing one of these, but just never got round to it.
moff
What was the S2000 like on the day?

Want to take my S2000 on a handling day to learn exactly where the break point is and how best to react when it does go.

+1 for the mppsk. Can only judge from sound inside the car, but can imagine as a by stander, it must sound epic round a track!

It was epic. I had an 03 at the time which has slightly scary handling (which I like). I learnt so much e.g. how to carry speed through a bend, how to brake mid bend and control to a stop without spinning, understeer and obviously some fun with oversteer.

The chaps in the Elise's really struggled due to them not having ABS, but the S2000 was a champion and put me in good stead for my future of rear wheel drive cars

[moff]

Originally Posted by Tengocity

Yes this is true, but many mods for a track day are about making the car robust enough and to take the pounding as much as actually going faster.

But on track days I'm always surprised how many people never bother with any tuition.

Agreed, but the idea of the CarLimits day is definitely road driving. Would love some more track instruction too though.

[Worzey]

Originally Posted by moff

The chaps in the Elise's really struggled due to them not having ABS, but the S2000 was a champion and put me in good stead for my future of rear wheel drive cars

I found the Elise significantly easier than the BMW. Despite only having driven it for 2 minutes (literally) I was already lapping faster than the BMW over the auto-test style route. Given I've never driven one before I found that incredible.

The pivot point felt much more natural (just behind me) whereas the 440 felt very nose heavy.

That said, my non ABS R400 would have been a scream. So much more controllable than either the BMW or the Elise. I'd have been able to steer it on the throttle much more. Next time I'm taking that