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      05-17-2017, 08:18 PM   #1
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F90 M5 dropping dual clutch for torque converter

Am I the only one being put off by this decision?

They say the reason is automatic shifts "nearly" as fast as DCT, which to me sounds like "it does not shift as fast but we want to cut the cost." Porsche makes 4wd with PDK; why can't bmw do it?


Even if that were the case, M is not simply about the shifting speed but about the driving experience. Torque converter may give you head start, but there is nothing like the feeling of full engagement with clutch packed transmission (be it manual or DCT.) And I fear that this decision would also take effect in smaller M2, M3s in the future.

ZF must have made hell of a good deal with BMW it seems. It just makes me sad that we may no longer be drifting kicking the clutch...
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      05-17-2017, 08:22 PM   #2
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Seems to me BMW M is turning into another AMG that wants to build softer more comfortable cars instead of what it used to be "the ultimate driving experience".

I really wish BMW M should be aiming at Porsche and not AMG.
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      05-17-2017, 08:55 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M4_GTS View Post
Seems to me BMW M is turning into another AMG that wants to build softer more comfortable cars instead of what it used to be "the ultimate driving experience".

I really wish BMW M should be aiming at Porsche and not AMG.
Funny AMG is becoming sportier than M these days..
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      05-17-2017, 11:49 PM   #4
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Just food for thought...

I've owned a tuned 135i (N54 A/T), a tuned 135i (N54 M/T), my current e92 M3 (DCT), and my girlfriend has a M6 Grand Coupe (M/T) with a Dinan tune. Of all those cars, the slush box 135i was the quickest from a dig up to around 80 mph. There was really something beautiful the way the torque converter meshed with the turbos and the torque produced by the N54. The car hooked up great and it never felt like any boost was lost between shifts. The only downside (other than the level of driver engagement offered up by a M/T) was the relative ease by which you could overheat the transmission, rendering it useless. The e92 M3 is not a torque monster and DCT seems to compliment the high revving S65. The M6 on the other hand has gobs of torque, but is quite possibly the slowest car off the line. Even with a M/T where you can feather the clutch (if need be), anything more that 20% throttle in first and second gear and the tires break loose. Cruising at 60 mph in third gear, the M6 has so much torque that if you plant your right foot, the car will smoke the tires well into the triple digits. My guess is that a torque converter would help smooth out power delivery and actually make the car much more useable for everyday people in everyday situations. Again, this is just food for thought, and a possible explanation for why BMW is heading in that direction.
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      05-17-2017, 11:56 PM   #5
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Launching a DCT is beyond ridiculous. I'll take the torque converter
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      05-18-2017, 12:59 AM   #6
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Currently F90 M5 is on tested on a variety of tracks and in and out of busy cities roads. M model, CFRP will also be used for the roof and in other key areas of the car. stated on bmwblog
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      05-18-2017, 02:08 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by shockin330i View Post
Launching a DCT is beyond ridiculous. I'll take the torque converter
In what way is it ridiculous? Dct was a part which made M stand above other german equivalents.
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      05-18-2017, 02:16 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pig Farmer View Post
Just food for thought...

I've owned a tuned 135i (N54 A/T), a tuned 135i (N54 M/T), my current e92 M3 (DCT), and my girlfriend has a M6 Grand Coupe (M/T) with a Dinan tune. Of all those cars, the slush box 135i was the quickest from a dig up to around 80 mph. There was really something beautiful the way the torque converter meshed with the turbos and the torque produced by the N54. The car hooked up great and it never felt like any boost was lost between shifts. The only downside (other than the level of driver engagement offered up by a M/T) was the relative ease by which you could overheat the transmission, rendering it useless. The e92 M3 is not a torque monster and DCT seems to compliment the high revving S65. The M6 on the other hand has gobs of torque, but is quite possibly the slowest car off the line.
I see your point, but remember M was never built as a dragster;straight line is only part of the performance. In my opinion, instead of making m5 have more power it is better to lose the weight of the car with DCT tranny (they can do so with carbon fiber roof and aluminum body parts.)
If you want luxury, you really should be going for 550i instead. (At least thats what set M5 apart! Sportiness over luxury)
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      05-18-2017, 02:21 AM   #9
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Dct didn't come around until the e9x m3. Don't confuse smg with dct. Two completely different transmissions. Vw was one of the first to use a true dct in their production cars as early as 2003.
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      05-18-2017, 02:37 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shockin330i View Post
Dct didn't come around until the e9x m3. Don't confuse smg with dct. Two completely different transmissions. Vw was one of the first to use a true dct in their production cars as early as 2003.
Ye and smg was considered a bad tranny for its engagements were too slow and irresponsive on track use (Ive had it, manual is better) Dont get it confused I never said I liked smg, one is a compromised manual and the other is a pinnacle of fast shifting technology. There is a reason why e92 is considered the most complete m3 of all generations.

Well the way I wrote it is confusing.I should have specified "modern" m3. I still think the sense of full control over the vehicle (including smg for its fun factor) is what set Ms apart. Not the case with torque converter where you let go off the brake it moves unlike smg/mt/dct.

Last edited by kyrix1st; 05-18-2017 at 02:46 AM..
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      05-18-2017, 02:43 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyrix1st
Quote:
Originally Posted by shockin330i View Post
Dct didn't come around until the e9x m3. Don't confuse smg with dct. Two completely different transmissions. Vw was one of the first to use a true dct in their production cars as early as 2003.
Ye and smg was considered a bad tranny for its engagements were too slow and irresponsive on track use (Ive had it, manual is better) Dont get it confused I never said I liked smg, one is a compromised manual and the other is a pinnacle of fast shifting technology.
The new zf transmissions shift just as fast and can down sift a while lot quicker since you dont actually have to go gear by gear. Don't get me wrong I love a dct as much as anyone, but their cost and performance advantages are dissappearing as these zf transmissions become quicker and more efficient.
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      05-18-2017, 02:53 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shockin330i View Post
The new zf transmissions shift just as fast and can down sift a while lot quicker since you dont actually have to go gear by gear. Don't get me wrong I love a dct as much as anyone, but their cost and performance advantages are dissappearing as these zf transmissions become quicker and more efficient.
Who says zf 8 speed is faster? Zf 8 speed is in the range of 60-90ms whereas dct is 6ms as its next gear is already engaged. Plus automatic never feels natural to shift manually (oh how i hate steptronics on porsche..zf got better but it still does not rev match as smoothly as dct. Could be a mapping issue.)
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      05-18-2017, 02:56 AM   #13
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Automatic overheats faster as well under repeated hard shifting from experience. I do think much of this is solved seeing how m235i racing runs endurance series in Europe. I don't know if they will apply the technology on m5 (highly unlikely.)
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      05-18-2017, 05:20 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyrix1st View Post
Am I the only one being put off by this decision?

They say the reason is automatic shifts "nearly" as fast as DCT, which to me sounds like "it does not shift as fast but we want to cut the cost." Porsche makes 4wd with PDK; why can't bmw do it?


Even if that were the case, M is not simply about the shifting speed but about the driving experience. Torque converter may give you head start, but there is nothing like the feeling of full engagement with clutch packed transmission (be it manual or DCT.) And I fear that this decision would also take effect in smaller M2, M3s in the future.
The amusing thing about it is that it was only 5 years ago or less even, that BMW announced the dropping of DCT in non-M cars in favour of the ZF, as a way of making DCT M-exclusive tech......and here we are just a short while later with BMW announcing that they are dropping DCT tech for M in favour of the ZF slush boxes....

I actually wonder for how much longer ///M Div will even last.....?
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      05-18-2017, 07:18 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeeRam View Post
The amusing thing about it is that it was only 5 years ago or less even, that BMW announced the dropping of DCT in non-M cars in favour of the ZF, as a way of making DCT M-exclusive tech......and here we are just a short while later with BMW announcing that they are dropping DCT tech for M in favour of the ZF slush boxes....

I actually wonder for how much longer ///M Div will even last.....?
///M badges sell cars, so they will always exist.
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      05-18-2017, 08:29 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shockin330i View Post
The new zf transmissions shift just as fast and can down sift a while lot quicker since you dont actually have to go gear by gear. Don't get me wrong I love a dct as much as anyone, but their cost and performance advantages are dissappearing as these zf transmissions become quicker and more efficient.
You don't have to go gear by gear to downshift the BMW DCT.
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      05-18-2017, 09:36 AM   #17
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I owned an E60 M5 and an F10 M5. When I found out the F90 was switching to automatic I decided not to wait and picked up a used Panamera Turbo S (970 generation) with dual clutch (PDK) and AWD.

The PDK transmission is superb. Feels super smooth in normal mode, which isn't always the case with the DCT. And ultra quick in sportier modes. Leaving gear selection in automatic is fantastic the transmission always know's what gear to be in. As a comparison I drove the E60 and F10 in manual mode only.

Dual clutch and AWD is definitely possible. And Porsche does a hell of a job with it.

Keeping the same engine and dropping the DCT is not a good move. I feel BMW will lose a lot of enthusiasts.
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      05-18-2017, 10:36 AM   #18
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As someone who has previously owned 2 BMWs with manuals and 1 BMW with DCT, I am mildly amused while reflecting on the same discussions that lambasted BMW for dropping pure manuals in favor of DCT.
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      05-18-2017, 11:28 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by daveschroeder View Post
As someone who has previously owned 2 BMWs with manuals and 1 BMW with DCT, I am mildly amused while reflecting on the same discussions that lambasted BMW for dropping pure manuals in favor of DCT.
Different issue to be honest. DCT shifts lightning fast while automatic shifts slower and is heavier, 7DCI700 being 78kg as opposed to ZF8HP being 91kg.

BMW Ms shouldn't be made to make profit; that's the job of the g30 series and as far as I know no sports model in any brand should expect to. It's more of a symbol of their technology. 911 benefits hugely from sales of cayenne and panamera. A more radical example would be Lexus LFA, where Toyota lost nearly 300K per car they made.
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      05-18-2017, 11:56 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David1 View Post
You don't have to go gear by gear to downshift the BMW DCT.
The zf can go from 6th straight to 2nd
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      05-18-2017, 01:07 PM   #21
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They should have used the new ZF 8DT DCT transmission that can handle 1000nm of torque that's in the panamera, but hey what can you do. Low speed drivability and such will be improved but at a sacrifice of sportiness. There's nothing cooler than pulling 4th gear at the top of 3rd in the f10 m5 when in the hardest shift mode, you get that invincibility feel for a split second, it's very cool.
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      05-18-2017, 01:42 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phil_ View Post

Keeping the same engine and dropping the DCT is not a good move. I feel BMW will lose a lot of enthusiasts.
This.
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