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      04-03-2017, 03:47 PM   #1
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BF Goodrich G Force R1s and Apex wheels?

I just finished a HPDE with the BMW CCA at VIR this past weekend and moved into a higher class by the end of the weekend. My instructor told me I need to upgrade to appropriate track tires if I want to improve any more as my Michelin PSS were at the limits. He recommended BF Goodrich G Force R1s on Apex rims. This would be my first set of truly dedicated track wheels and tires so I'm unsure what size/offset/etc I would be looking at. Basically, I'm looking for some beginner track wheel/tire advice. Thanks!
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      04-04-2017, 10:57 PM   #2
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Going from the Michelin PSS to the BFG R1 is a huge step. Do you have experience driving a non-treaded tire? It's entirely different than a street tire. You'll feel like a grandma out there for a little while until you figure out how to drive them. You might want to register in a run group one down from where you are now, so you can get used to the tires without so much pressure to keep up with everyone else.

I'd email Apex and see what they recommend for offsets. You can also ask a place like Turner.

For tire sizes, my recommendation is to maintain some understeer with a slightly smaller tire up front. If you have some built-in understeer, it's a little safer. Unlike the Michelin PSS, which has progressive grip levels, the BFG R1 will simply let go when you get it over the limit. It's either grip or no grip, that's the major difference between a streetable tire and a tire like the BFG R1.

When I went from PSS to BFG R1, I started to overheat my brakes. I ended up getting some brake ducts installed on my E92, and upgrading to Hawk DTC-70 pads on the factory calipers/rotors. Worked great. Note those pads are highly unsafe on the street, they need a lot of heat in them to function properly. So you'll want to change them out at the track. A PITA, for sure, but necessary.

I'd think twice about the BFG R1 upgrade. Unless you feel like you're not having fun out there, the PSS is a great streetable track tire. Either way, a dedicated set of wheels/tires for the track is economically sensible.

Charles
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      04-05-2017, 09:07 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ421 View Post
Going from the Michelin PSS to the BFG R1 is a huge step. Do you have experience driving a non-treaded tire? It's entirely different than a street tire. You'll feel like a grandma out there for a little while until you figure out how to drive them. You might want to register in a run group one down from where you are now, so you can get used to the tires without so much pressure to keep up with everyone else.

I'd email Apex and see what they recommend for offsets. You can also ask a place like Turner.

For tire sizes, my recommendation is to maintain some understeer with a slightly smaller tire up front. If you have some built-in understeer, it's a little safer. Unlike the Michelin PSS, which has progressive grip levels, the BFG R1 will simply let go when you get it over the limit. It's either grip or no grip, that's the major difference between a streetable tire and a tire like the BFG R1.

When I went from PSS to BFG R1, I started to overheat my brakes. I ended up getting some brake ducts installed on my E92, and upgrading to Hawk DTC-70 pads on the factory calipers/rotors. Worked great. Note those pads are highly unsafe on the street, they need a lot of heat in them to function properly. So you'll want to change them out at the track. A PITA, for sure, but necessary.

I'd think twice about the BFG R1 upgrade. Unless you feel like you're not having fun out there, the PSS is a great streetable track tire. Either way, a dedicated set of wheels/tires for the track is economically sensible.

Charles
Thanks Charles for the well thought out reply - it was exactly what I was looking for. I may stick with the PSS for the end of the year. I only plan on doing another 2 day event towards the end of October. I did change my stock brakes to Hawk pads and stainless steel lines with DOT 4 fluid and it certainly felt better than being totally stock but I went ahead and ordered the full M Performance BBK and will use Hawk street pads on them for the street and next HPDE I plan on buying separate rotors and track only pads just for HPDE events up there.

Your comment about upgrading if I stop having fun was the wake up call I needed. I'm still having a freaking blast and I think better brakes will alow me to brake later and have just as much fun. Thanks again.
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      04-05-2017, 11:05 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cammy5 View Post
Thanks Charles for the well thought out reply - it was exactly what I was looking for. I may stick with the PSS for the end of the year. I only plan on doing another 2 day event towards the end of October. I did change my stock brakes to Hawk pads and stainless steel lines with DOT 4 fluid and it certainly felt better than being totally stock but I went ahead and ordered the full M Performance BBK and will use Hawk street pads on them for the street and next HPDE I plan on buying separate rotors and track only pads just for HPDE events up there.

Your comment about upgrading if I stop having fun was the wake up call I needed. I'm still having a freaking blast and I think better brakes will alow me to brake later and have just as much fun. Thanks again.
You're welcome, and I would definitely just stick with the PSS based on what you said. I had more fun with those than the BFG R1.

Something else about the BFG R1 is that it's a lot harder on the car, especially the suspension, and you, the driver, due to the higher loads generated. Realistically they would be paired with race dampers/springs and bucket seats.

PSS tend to get a little greasy towards the end of a session, but for me that always happened like 15 min in when it was almost time to end the session anyway. If they get too hot what I did was just go around the track one lap at 3/4 normal pace, they would cool off (and so would the brakes).

Something to look into is your alignment. Watch the sidewall on your PSS. If you see the wear creeping up on there (look for the Michelin man), that means the tires are rolling onto their sidewall too much. You can add negative camber to reduce that, the tires will last longer, and provide better grip. I'm not sure how much camber you can get out of the F3X chassis. -1.5 degrees or so would be ideal, and wouldn't add much wear on the street.
Also check your tire pressures at the end of a session. The tire pressures on the driver door will likely be a few PSI too high for track use, as the tires will obviously heat up out there. If they go over 39 PSI, let some air out. I found 29-30 PSI all around was a good cold starting point for the track. Your grip will not be as good with too high of PSI.
Last, I would swap wheels left to right halfway through the day, you can do that since the PSS is non-directional. One of the great things about that tire. This will further even the wear.
(Apologies in advance if you were already doing some of that.)

Charles
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      04-05-2017, 11:19 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ421 View Post
For tire sizes, my recommendation is to maintain some understeer with a slightly smaller tire up front. If you have some built-in understeer, it's a little safer.
Hey
Would you put slightly narrower tires up front even if the wheel width is the same front and back?
Like 245 front 255 rear on four 18x8.5 wheels?
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      04-06-2017, 04:20 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XKxRome0ox View Post
Hey
Would you put slightly narrower tires up front even if the wheel width is the same front and back?
Like 245 front 255 rear on four 18x8.5 wheels?
No, I would just make it 255 square all around so you can rotate tires more easily.
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      04-06-2017, 04:50 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XKxRome0ox View Post
Hey
Would you put slightly narrower tires up front even if the wheel width is the same front and back?
Like 245 front 255 rear on four 18x8.5 wheels?
You can do that, yes. I had BFG R1 on 18x9" wheels on my E92, 245 front and 265 rear. It worked fine.

Maintaining a bit of understeer was my preference, so I always used a smaller tire up front. Usually -20mm.

Charles
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      04-06-2017, 05:04 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ421 View Post
You can do that, yes. I had BFG R1 on 18x8.5" wheels on my E92, 245 front and 265 rear. It worked fine.

Maintaining a bit of understeer was my preference, so I always used a smaller tire up front. Usually -20mm.

Charles
you didn't have issues with 265 width tires on 8.5 width wheels?
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      04-06-2017, 11:22 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XKxRome0ox View Post
you didn't have issues with 265 width tires on 8.5 width wheels?
That was a memory lapse on my part, I think my wheels must have been 9". The tire sidewall looked square.

Charles
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      04-07-2017, 12:53 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ421 View Post
That was a memory lapse on my part, I think my wheels must have been 9". The tire sidewall looked square.

Charles
ah okay

i think i can do 255/40/18 square ... but the front might rub the fender just a little bit
so i was thinking 245 square...

but if i want to maintain some understeer, i should go 235/40/18 in the front and 255/40/18 in rear?
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      04-07-2017, 01:18 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by XKxRome0ox View Post
ah okay

so..... if i want to stay with 255/40/18 on the rear....
should i go 235/40/18 in the front?
i think i can do 255/40/18 square ... but the front might rub the fender just a little bit
255 was wide up front on the E9X, chassis, I'm unsure if that still applies to the F3X.

A 235 front, 255 rear setup is pretty balanced. Also look at 225 front; 10mm is not much of a difference, that tire size might be more common (less expensive). Same for the rear, also look at 265. I would say as long as you keep the fronts within 20-30mm of the rear, that you'll be fine. A setup like that will maintain some understeer.

Charles
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      04-07-2017, 06:38 PM   #12
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darn it
MP4S not available in 255/40/18 ??
but 245/40/18 is
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      04-08-2017, 07:08 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ421 View Post
255 was wide up front on the E9X, chassis, I'm unsure if that still applies to the F3X.

A 235 front, 255 rear setup is pretty balanced. Also look at 225 front; 10mm is not much of a difference, that tire size might be more common (less expensive). Same for the rear, also look at 265. I would say as long as you keep the fronts within 20-30mm of the rear, that you'll be fine. A setup like that will maintain some understeer.

Charles
The car will still understeer with 255/40/18 all around. The understeer is built into the chassis, it's going to be part of the chassis dynamics.

255/40/18 MPSS up front on a 18x8.5 ET38 wheel will not rub. It's a common setup around here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by XKxRome0ox View Post
darn it
MP4S not available in 255/40/18 ??
but 245/40/18 is
MP4S will be available next year in more sizes. With MPSS/MP4S, square tire sizes will allow it to have the full mileage warranty. If you use a staggered setup, the warranty is halved. Not saying that your tires would technically qualify for warranty with track use, but it's indicative of how much tire life you may get out of them when going staggered vs. square sizes.
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      04-15-2017, 08:50 AM   #14
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Ordering 245/40/18 all around
Didn't know about the mileage warranty thing
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      04-18-2017, 04:36 PM   #15
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Great feedback from Charles (CJ421) here. Too often enthusiasts new or relatively new to the HPDE world jump into a dedicated r-compound or race slick early in their driver development. Yes they are superior in terms of grip, but if the car and more importantly the driver is not up to par, they will mask errors and ultimately limit/hinder the drivers progression.

Michelin PSS's are fantastic tires for the street or for spirited driving, however we would recommend running Extreme Summer tires for track days (one step up from MPSS Performance Street tires). Extreme Summer tires like Hankook RS-3 (now RS-4), Dunlop Direzza ZII Star Spec, Yokohama AD08, BFG Rival and more can be great double duty tires for both street and track use. They will provide you with more grip then a MPSS, and more importantly will not drop off after a lap or two like the MPSS will. You can certainly get out on track for the first few time with MPSS if you already have them, however if you want to progress as a driver you need tires that will be up to the task of repetitive lapping without facing massive shoulder degradation.

Extreme summer tires will still be vocal, letting the driver know when they are approaching their limits. Furthermore, extreme summer tires paired with the appropriate amount of negative camber can result in very quick lap times and will promote even/consistent tire wear. Once a driver has progressed and plateaued so-to-speak, then moving to an r-compound makes sense.

A square set of APEX 18x8.5" or 18x9" wheels paired with 255 tires is a very effective setup

- Ryan
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      06-15-2018, 04:18 PM   #16
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I got Apex 18x8.5 ET 38 on all four corners and it looks/fits great. I have RE-71R as my track tires (245/40R18). Fits and drives great.
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      06-16-2018, 03:50 AM   #17
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If you need something more track worthy than the MPSS/PS4S but not as crazy as a streetable track tire, the new Bridgestone Potenza S007A may be worth a look. It's an extreme performance summer tire with 240 tread wear rating. I believe it's designed to replace the former RE-11 which is a little less grippy than the RE-71R.
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